View Full Version : Swiss made rolex daytona cosmograph black face replica watch
worldwideluxe27
08-26-2004, 12:24 AM
pm with email for pics if interested..this is an exact replica
SweetTalker
08-26-2004, 06:56 AM
send me some pics at sweettalker4k@hotmail.com and i'll try to upload the pics for you
Mpowered
08-26-2004, 12:55 PM
if only it was white...
worldwideluxe27
08-26-2004, 08:15 PM
thanks sweettalker..i'll send you the pics and I do appreciate you posting for me
SweetTalker
08-27-2004, 10:29 PM
here is the watch guys, looks nice IMO I would buy it
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/sweettalker/misc/rolexdaytona.jpg
djabaley
08-29-2004, 03:13 AM
that's a picture of a real rolex daytona
no replica looks like that I guaran-damn-tee you
cmac's 325i
08-29-2004, 12:27 PM
Please email me pics cmaccarr@ucla.edu
Thanks-please include price in email
worldwideluxe27
08-29-2004, 03:28 PM
that's a picture of a real rolex daytona
no replica looks like that I guaran-damn-tee you
i double guarantee you that that is the actual watch pictured..the reason it is called a replica is because it IS AN EXACT REPLICA ..lol..see even you thought its real..buy this and imagine all the people you can fool! only you will know you paid very little for this watch that retails for over $10,000! Djabaley..you illustrated my point that this watch is very convincing..thanks :)
djabaley
08-29-2004, 06:54 PM
no sorry, you are incorrect
that watch has exact dial spacing, and a functioning second hand at the 6 o'clock position
guess what? no movement exists in a replica watch with a functioning chrono, correct dial spacing, and a functioning second hand sweep at 6 o'clock. even those with replica asian valjoux 7750 movements cannot replicate those features. sorry, you can't fool me.
fanatics don't get ripped off by this BS, he probably just took a rolex datyona picture off ebay
bluecougar
08-29-2004, 07:06 PM
thanks for the look out! :)
BEn JEn
08-29-2004, 07:17 PM
no sorry, you are incorrect
that watch has exact dial spacing, and a functioning second hand at the 6 o'clock position
guess what? no movement exists in a replica watch with a functioning chrono, correct dial spacing, and a functioning second hand sweep at 6 o'clock. even those with replica asian valjoux 7750 movements cannot replicate those features. sorry, you can't fool me.
fanatics don't get ripped off by this BS, he probably just took a rolex datyona picture off ebay
He DID take it off eBay. Look at the little logo in the corner.
:owned:
bluecougar
08-29-2004, 07:25 PM
:lmao:
SweetTalker
08-29-2004, 07:48 PM
no sorry, you are incorrect
that watch has exact dial spacing, and a functioning second hand at the 6 o'clock position
guess what? no movement exists in a replica watch with a functioning chrono, correct dial spacing, and a functioning second hand sweep at 6 o'clock. even those with replica asian valjoux 7750 movements cannot replicate those features. sorry, you can't fool me.
fanatics don't get ripped off by this BS, he probably just took a rolex datyona picture off ebay
Hey can you elaborate a little more? I didn't quite get what you meant about functioning chrono, and the dial spacing..ESP about the second hand sweep? Please explain, THANKS ALOT!
SweetTalker - Looking for a replica watch? You should go out to the Garmet District in LA. Theres the "Alley" where you'll find plenty of replica watches. Most replicas like Omegas and Bolivas will be on display but the Rolexes you have to ask for. Automatics typically sell for $30-35 and the chronographs go for about $50-60. If you know what watch you specifically looking for bring a picture, they'll be able to halp you out.
FYI: The "Alley" literally is an alley with shop align on both side 3 blocks. One end is located near the corner of Los Angeles and Olympic.
djabaley
08-29-2004, 08:50 PM
no perfect replica of a rolex daytona exists at this time,
end of story
worldwideluxe27
08-29-2004, 09:57 PM
no sorry, you are incorrect
that watch has exact dial spacing, and a functioning second hand at the 6 o'clock position
guess what? no movement exists in a replica watch with a functioning chrono, correct dial spacing, and a functioning second hand sweep at 6 o'clock. even those with replica asian valjoux 7750 movements cannot replicate those features. sorry, you can't fool me.
fanatics don't get ripped off by this BS, he probably just took a rolex datyona picture off ebay
fine your loss guys..dont buy it then..sorry im not a watch expert..but it does have the sweeping hand motion as opposed to the "tick tick tick" of regular watches, that i do know..you seem to know more about watches than me..by the f'ing way i did mention it is a REPLICA..if i was such an ahole and wanted to rip you off i would say REAL ROLEX..am i right? did i ever claim it was real? a replica is a replica of a real thing..if you want the real thing than go buy it if you can kid
rsjean
08-29-2004, 10:18 PM
that's a picture of a real rolex daytona
no replica looks like that I guaran-damn-tee you
Just check this site out andd tell me no replica can look so good...
http://www.goreplicas.com/
I have a real GMT Master and a friend has the rep from there - the jeweler can't tell the diff, we tested...
worldwideluxe27
08-29-2004, 10:45 PM
Just check this site out andd tell me no replica can look so good...
http://www.goreplicas.com/
I have a real GMT Master and a friend has the rep from there - the jeweler can't tell the diff, we tested...
exactly...human beings have figured out how to do stem cell research, genetic engineering, and quantum physics..but djabaley refuses to believe human beings can make replica watches :dunno:
worldwideluxe27
08-29-2004, 10:50 PM
thanks for the link rs..by the way, the watch goes for $1400 on the site guaran-damn-tee this djabaley (http://www.goreplicas.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayDetails&item_num=G1-MDAYT01)
worldwideluxe27
08-29-2004, 10:53 PM
no ill will djabaley..you know i love you baby..just think twice before you "guaran-damn-tee" anything next time :)
glenspeed
08-29-2004, 11:42 PM
you would need a better picture and to see it working to get a better idea, but even then it would be hard to tell if it was a very good replica.
few things that MIGHT give it away on CLOSE inspection, and not from pics:
1) o-ring seals on the wind down crown
2) shaped hands and not flat luminescent hands
3) oversized minute hands and not regular sized
4) large sweeping hand is for chronograph and not seconds
5) at same time minute registers must also function correctly along with second sweeper
I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't go back to a jeweller that couldn't tell a fake from the real thing if he had it in person.
the goreplica looks good, but it would have to function like a real chronograph as well. I would think if you wanted to "impress your friends" (quote from goreplica), spend the $1400 on a nice dinner and champagne!
djabaley
08-30-2004, 12:45 AM
if you want to sell a replica, put up an actual picture of it, not a picture of a *real* rolex daytona that you borrowed from ebay
I know my :censor::censor::censor::censor:, I do this as a hobby for the love of god
no perfect, or even semi-perfect, replica of the rolex daytona is manufactured anywhere at this time
either the:
1. subdial spacing is incorrect
2. the chrono functions, but the second hand movement is at the 9 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock
3. the chrono does not function, but the 6 o'clock second hand sweeps (these newest models have other flaws too)
the only nearly accurate replicas of the daytona available are of the 70's "paul newman" daytona's
I don't even need to see the watch in person, I can tell by the pic you posted that this thread is full of it
don't try to sell a replica w/ a pic of a real watch. I called BS and won, deal with it.
ps...now what you could do is post a picture of the *actual* watch you are selling and not a picture of a genuine daytona and then i can tear apart the quality of the rep
bonsai
08-30-2004, 01:41 AM
:lmao:
kwang1
08-30-2004, 02:31 PM
thanks for the link rs..by the way, the watch goes for $1400 on the site guaran-damn-tee this djabaley (http://www.goreplicas.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayDetails&item_num=G1-MDAYT01)
I bought a grade A replica from Taiwan, same thing but white face for around $150 2 years ago and it's still working like a charm! :thumbup:
but I did notice the spacing of the words is alittle different, and the hours arrow is smaller than the real one.
ultra-violence
08-30-2004, 03:25 PM
I have seen some pretty good fakes, but there is always something that gives them away. Whether is it the markings on the inside of the case, or between the lugs, there will usually be something not quite right. Sometimes it may look sort of ok on the outside, but you open it up and it has a cheap couple jewel movement, or I have even seen small ladies movements with a large spacer ring so that they will fit inside a full-size men's case. Some of the fakes that are the hardest to tell are the ones coming out of Canada and South America. The South Americans will buy up genuine SS Rolex watches, pull the movement out, add a day wheel, and put the movement in a fake 18K case with an attached fake president band. Most people look at them and think they are real because it has a real Rolex movement, but in actuality it is only worth the movement and weight of the gold. A fraction of what a real 18K Rolex would be worth. What gives it away is that many of them have not been able to perfect the Swiss ladies head hallmark on the inside of the caseback. As hard as companies work to protect their creations, some will work even harder to try and copy it to make a quick buck.
BEn JEn
08-30-2004, 05:48 PM
Hey djabaley I've seen some of those sites that claim (I'm not sure if it's true) that they use all the parts that they use in the Rolex's with the exact same internal parts. Would those be exact? Can't the makers just buy dials from the manufacturer?
Do you have any special watches? http://forum.e46fanatics.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
ultra-violence
08-30-2004, 08:33 PM
Some of the sites selling "replicas" are nuts. $800 - $1000 for a replica?
You would be better off starting with a manual wind Rolex Oyster (you want to get the later model Precisions, not the earlier) for $500 - $700 in Stainless, or a Stainless Rolex Oyster Perpetual for $800 - $1000.
You could even go with a stainless Tudor on a Lizard or Crocodile band starting at about $275. It will have an ETA movement in it (some are marked Rolex as well as Tudor though), but it has the Rolex marked Oyster-style case, and Rolex crown.
djabaley
08-31-2004, 03:20 AM
the thing is that all of those websites get their reps from secondary dealers and mark up the price between 2 and 3 times the price they get the watches for
assuming the original starter of this thread has the best rep daytona available, I can get that watch for 270 brand spanking new.
A replica is always a replica, none are perfect. Spend your money on a decent Invicta 9937 or some other ETA-driven watch.
GadgetCar
08-31-2004, 02:50 PM
Thanks for looking out dj, it's members like you who go the extra mile that really help out!
You can get replicas? Do you have a site or a list or anything, I'd be interested in checking some out. There's an Omega I'm looking for, the Speedmaster, but since it's just a watch, I don't want to shell out the money for a real one, just like the look of it :)
This Daytona is also pretty sweet looking too.
ultra-violence
08-31-2004, 02:54 PM
Some of the sites selling "replicas" are nuts. $800 - $1000 for a replica?
You would be better off starting with a manual wind Rolex Oyster (you want to get the later model Precisions, not the earlier) for $500 - $700 in Stainless, or a Stainless Rolex Oyster Perpetual for $800 - $1000.
You could even go with a stainless Tudor on a Lizard or Crocodile band starting at about $275. It will have an ETA movement in it (some are marked Rolex as well as Tudor though), but it has the Rolex marked Oyster-style case, and Rolex crown.
I was just trying to say that there are reasonable priced genuine alternatives to spending money on something that is not real.
Fuzzypuppy
09-03-2004, 11:35 PM
I was just trying to say that there are reasonable priced genuine alternatives to spending money on something that is not real.
Well, there are no good replicas of the Daytona. You cannot build a reasonable replica of the Daytona because of the alignment of the chronograph dials.
The Daytona pre-2001 (1652x) used a Zenith movement unlike any available ETA/Valjoux, but could be faked more closely than the current, in-house 44-jewel Rolex movement (11652x). The subdial setup is a bit different, with the second hand moving to 6 o'clock versus the old 9 o'clock. The subdials at 3 and 9 are now slightly higher than the centerline. No movement is capable of replicating that positioning with working subdial functions. Even the "Swiss" fakes use ETA movements - fine for trying to replicate a non-chronograph Rolex like a Submariner or Datejust but inadequate for a Daytona. Take off the caseback, however, and you'll never fool anyone into thinking it's a Rolex movement, which is quite distinct. The ETAs and Valjouxs, by the way, are perfectly good movements used in a lot of watchs, either as they are or highly modified (all Breitlings use Valjoux movements - my Chronomat's Breitling Series 13 movement is a modified Valjoux 7750 that is quite good).
You can buy replicas of various quality, but none that are anywhere close to exact. Some are quite passable for fooling your friends, but will not fool a Rolex enthusiast for more than ten seconds, much less a qualified watchmaker.
I have a two-tone 16523, two stainless steel 116520s, and a two-tone 116523 in my collection. I also have three replicas given to me by friends as a joke about my ever-expanding watch collection. One is horrible. One could fool someone not familiar with Rolex. The last one might fool someone who doesn't really know Daytonas. As fun as they are, I'd never wear any one of them outside.
Do yourself a favor - get yourself a real Seiko automatic rather than a fake Rolex for the same price. You'll get a better watch, and one that says much better things about you.
rsjean
09-04-2004, 07:10 AM
Well, there are no good replicas of the Daytona. You cannot build a reasonable replica of the Daytona because of the alignment of the chronograph dials.
The Daytona pre-2001 (1652x) used a Zenith movement unlike any available ETA/Valjoux, but could be faked more closely than the current, in-house 44-jewel Rolex movement (11652x). The subdial setup is a bit different, with the second hand moving to 6 o'clock versus the old 9 o'clock. The subdials at 3 and 9 are now slightly higher than the centerline. No movement is capable of replicating that positioning with working subdial functions. Even the "Swiss" fakes use ETA movements - fine for trying to replicate a non-chronograph Rolex like a Submariner or Datejust but inadequate for a Daytona. Take off the caseback, however, and you'll never fool anyone into thinking it's a Rolex movement, which is quite distinct. The ETAs and Valjouxs, by the way, are perfectly good movements used in a lot of watchs, either as they are or highly modified (all Breitlings use Valjoux movements - my Chronomat's Breitling Series 13 movement is a modified Valjoux 7750 that is quite good).
You can buy replicas of various quality, but none that are anywhere close to exact. Some are quite passable for fooling your friends, but will not fool a Rolex enthusiast for more than ten seconds, much less a qualified watchmaker.
I have a two-tone 16523, two stainless steel 116520s, and a two-tone 116523 in my collection. I also have three replicas given to me by friends as a joke about my ever-expanding watch collection. One is horrible. One could fool someone not familiar with Rolex. The last one might fool someone who doesn't really know Daytonas. As fun as they are, I'd never wear any one of them outside.
Do yourself a favor - get yourself a real Seiko automatic rather than a fake Rolex for the same price. You'll get a better watch, and one that says much better things about you.
The guy servicing my Rolex GMT Master for 8 years couldn't identify the goreplicas $950 fake a collegue bought. He's 72 years old and had been a certified Rolex repairman for 30 years.
ultra-violence
09-04-2004, 08:05 AM
Well, there are no good replicas of the Daytona. You cannot build a reasonable replica of the Daytona because of the alignment of the chronograph dials.
The Daytona pre-2001 (1652x) used a Zenith movement unlike any available ETA/Valjoux, but could be faked more closely than the current, in-house 44-jewel Rolex movement (11652x). The subdial setup is a bit different, with the second hand moving to 6 o'clock versus the old 9 o'clock. The subdials at 3 and 9 are now slightly higher than the centerline. No movement is capable of replicating that positioning with working subdial functions. Even the "Swiss" fakes use ETA movements - fine for trying to replicate a non-chronograph Rolex like a Submariner or Datejust but inadequate for a Daytona. Take off the caseback, however, and you'll never fool anyone into thinking it's a Rolex movement, which is quite distinct. The ETAs and Valjouxs, by the way, are perfectly good movements used in a lot of watchs, either as they are or highly modified (all Breitlings use Valjoux movements - my Chronomat's Breitling Series 13 movement is a modified Valjoux 7750 that is quite good).
You can buy replicas of various quality, but none that are anywhere close to exact. Some are quite passable for fooling your friends, but will not fool a Rolex enthusiast for more than ten seconds, much less a qualified watchmaker.
I have a two-tone 16523, two stainless steel 116520s, and a two-tone 116523 in my collection. I also have three replicas given to me by friends as a joke about my ever-expanding watch collection. One is horrible. One could fool someone not familiar with Rolex. The last one might fool someone who doesn't really know Daytonas. As fun as they are, I'd never wear any one of them outside.
Do yourself a favor - get yourself a real Seiko automatic rather than a fake Rolex for the same price. You'll get a better watch, and one that says much better things about you.
I have seen more than a few fakes of the older Daytona's, and many people had a hard time telling because they did use the El Primero movement, not a cheap quartz movement. There is never a reason to buy a fake, fakes are the worst form of flattery. There are reasonably priced genuine watches out there, you just have to decide what type you want, and look around for the best deal.
Fuzzypuppy
09-04-2004, 09:55 AM
The guy servicing my Rolex GMT Master for 8 years couldn't identify the goreplicas $950 fake a collegue bought. He's 72 years old and had been a certified Rolex repairman for 30 years.
Uh, your jeweler can't tell the difference between a 25-jewel ETA movement and a 31-jewel Rolex movement? Not much of a jeweler then...
Don't bother arguing that it's not an ETA, even the website ad says it is. Like I said, the ETA is a perfectly fine entry level swiss ebauche... but it isn't by any stretch a Rolex.
My personal opinion is this: buying a fake Rolex to pass off as a real one is like buying a Civic and dressing it up as an M3. You're better off either buying a Civic for what it is, or just saving up for the M3. I have no idea why people who routinely rip on franken-civics would want to buy a fake rolex, but hey, to each his own.
P.S. neither an M3 or a Rolex is really that hot an item. both are phenomenal examples of exceptionally built, designed and crafted mass produced luxury goods. But if you love them for what they are, you quickly realize that there are plenty of far superior competitors (like Patek Phillipe or Ferrari).
Of course, the key about a Rolex or a BMW for many people is what they think it says about THEM, rather than what it says about itself.
The whole thing about how "authentic" it is baffles me anyway. Most people know what a Rolex is (now that's good marketing) but have no idea what a real Rolex looks like anyway, much less how to distinguish even a $50 fake, with a 21-jewel Chinese non-quartz automatic movement, versus a real one. Those are the probably most of the people you would want to fool anyway. You want a fake? Go ahead and buy one. You'll still be able to fool most people.
rsjean
09-04-2004, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE=Fuzzypuppy]Uh, your jeweler can't tell the difference between a 25-jewel ETA movement and a 31-jewel Rolex movement? Not much of a jeweler then...
The point being that unless even an experience Rolex jeweler is asked to go deep into the watch with the mission of uncovering whether or not it is a fake he will most likely not be aware of the difference in routine servicing - cleaning, checking seals, tightening links etc.
So for someone who wants the status of the $7k watch on a sub $1k budget, there are safe relaiable and convincing alternatives. I am not trying to analyze the personalities of those who do, judge them or pontificate. To each is own.
For me on the other hand - my Rolex is only the $2k variety but I made darn sure it was real - from a real authorized dealer. Just my desire.
So we are actually saying the same thing - those who want real - get one. Those who want convincing fakes - they can accomplish that as well. ust no judgements going on here...
Ghost Rider
09-11-2004, 03:32 PM
Its all perception, isn't it?
I am not trying to insult any of the people here who are into fine watches. I appreciate quality as much as any of you.
Perhaps you have a friend or acquaintance that is shopping for a watch, and they know next to nothing about them. Try and impress upon someone who knows nothing about fine timepieces the value of a Rolex or Breitling. See if you can explain to them why its worth thousands of dollars. See if you can do it without spluttering, "But, well, it's a Rolex!!" Chances are you can't. Especially if its an automatic, and they want to know what's so special about a watch that can't even keep the time if you put it down for a week. :)
I want a watch that looks good and keeps perfect time. The replicas offer everything that the genuine automatics do, at a better price point. These aren't the cheap junk fakes that came out in the 80's, with the gold-look brass cases that turned green under sweat. The new breed of replicas offer very fine detail and very good material quality. A friend of mine got me into them, after showing me the watch case he has full of about a dozen or so replicas and real Rolexes and Ferrari watches. There's nothing intrinsically valuable to the real ones on a casual comparison. The weights are the same, so are the bands and the dials.
As for me, I'm partial to Vacheron Constantin watches. Its interesting to note that in comparing the "replica" VC watches to the ones off the Vacheron website, the replicas look better. I'm seriously thinking about buying one because no one around here even knows what Vacheron is or what they are supposed to cost, and I couldn't be accused of trying to pass off a fake to anyone but the people who have their nose buried in the Robb Report.
Overall, the perception issue is familiar to me as an M3 owner. Several times I've been talking with women I meet when the inevitable question comes up "What kind of car do you drive?" (read: "Can you support my shoe habit or should I look around the room some more?")
When I say I drive an M3, I usually get a blank look followed by "What's that?"
"A BMW."
"Oh. Are those good?"
rsjean
09-11-2004, 04:59 PM
Its all perception, isn't it?
I am not trying to insult any of the people here who are into fine watches. I appreciate quality as much as any of you.
Perhaps you have a friend or acquaintance that is shopping for a watch, and they know next to nothing about them. Try and impress upon someone who knows nothing about fine timepieces the value of a Rolex or Breitling. See if you can explain to them why its worth thousands of dollars. See if you can do it without spluttering, "But, well, it's a Rolex!!" Chances are you can't. Especially if its an automatic, and they want to know what's so special about a watch that can't even keep the time if you put it down for a week. :)
I want a watch that looks good and keeps perfect time. The replicas offer everything that the genuine automatics do, at a better price point. These aren't the cheap junk fakes that came out in the 80's, with the gold-look brass cases that turned green under sweat. The new breed of replicas offer very fine detail and very good material quality. A friend of mine got me into them, after showing me the watch case he has full of about a dozen or so replicas and real Rolexes and Ferrari watches. There's nothing intrinsically valuable to the real ones on a casual comparison. The weights are the same, so are the bands and the dials.
As for me, I'm partial to Vacheron Constantin watches. Its interesting to note that in comparing the "replica" VC watches to the ones off the Vacheron website, the replicas look better. I'm seriously thinking about buying one because no one around here even knows what Vacheron is or what they are supposed to cost, and I couldn't be accused of trying to pass off a fake to anyone but the people who have their nose buried in the Robb Report.
Overall, the perception issue is familiar to me as an M3 owner. Several times I've been talking with women I meet when the inevitable question comes up "What kind of car do you drive?" (read: "Can you support my shoe habit or should I look around the room some more?")
When I say I drive an M3, I usually get a blank look followed by "What's that?"
"A BMW."
"Oh. Are those good?"
But I think you miss the point of what a Rolex watch is all about, and why it costs thousands...
I was at a trade event dinner with the then vice president of marketing for Rolex. I was with my boss who knew him well. My boss casually walked up to him and greeted him with a "so how's the watch business!". He turned around and retorted to my boss "I wouldn't know, Rolex is not in the watch business we're in the image business."
In keeping with that, my Rolex GMT Master SS/18K Gold with a Jubilee Bracelet was about the most inaccurate watch I have ever owned. The Sapphire Ground crystal face was more distorted and scratched easier than any watch I had before or since.
Clearly Rolex is not about the watch. It is about the materials and mostly the Brand - The Image Statement it makes about who you are and how much money you have.
That's why you can't explain to a friend about the "fine timepieces the value of a Rolex... or explain to them why it's worth thousands of dollars....
Because it isn't.
It's only worth the price to one who has enough money and who wants to have the image of one with money by having a Rolex on his/her arm. And that's why Rolex and the Rolex customer do not care that a $59.00 watch that is guaranteed twice as long an a Rolex and gets signals via satellite from the atomic clock and is dead on accurate is also on the market...
megdrux2008
12-13-2008, 01:32 PM
Ma mentre passando in rassegna luoghi dei commercianti in linea' o i depositi più vicini dalla vostra casa, noterete che la marca del replica Rolex (http://www.everestmotors.com/rolex-replicas.html) inoltre ha una vasta gamma di vari modelli di lusso da scegliere da. Wenn sie kommt zu kaufen, passt Qualität rolex dann erste Sache auf, die in Ihren Verstand ist kommt, dass „es jeder möglicher Diskont oder Verkauf gibt, die für dieses Einzelteil oder Rolex-Replik“ laufen, die jedem erlauben, etwas und Luxus ihrem Alltagsleben hinzuzufügen spezielles.
megdrux2008
12-15-2008, 03:13 AM
En verkliga Rolex rymmer en äkta märkesnamn, och återförsäljningen värderar och är en samlare objekt. Mientras usted siga los pasos de compra seguros necesarios, después usted puede conseguir seguramente la mejor reproducción de replica Rolex (http://www.lookrichforless.com) del mercado.
alex_lee88
12-15-2008, 05:29 PM
whats he sayin?
SDKmann
12-15-2008, 09:00 PM
Something tells me its spam.... just a hunch though.
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