E46 M3 and 330 Turbo kit to be offered...

[vaio76109]

DA Motorsports will supposedly be launching turbo kits for the E46 330 and M3 beginning at the end of march.

Beginning with post #57
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?p=662428#post662428

[BMW330xi01]

im still gonan wait for ATP turbo






















































:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[xxcosmicxx]

I can't link to it at work...can someone copy and paste it for me...

How much?

[vaio76109]

Hi to everyone,

We have offered the E46 M3 turbo kit for 8000 USD. This is what we have offered. The real cost is above this price as we wanted to have an example in Greece. The first E46 M3 turbocharged in Greece would be DA Motorsport's "show room", "example" and "model". In reality, the price is close to 12,000 USD.

We will guarantee 50,000 miles= 80,000 km on the turbocharged E46 M3 engine.
No engine damage at 1,5 bar of boost pressure.

6 JE forgd Pistons cost maximum 1400 USD , never 3000 USD. Do a web search and see prices....
We have offered Mr. Dimis the Turbocharger Kit for E46 M3 with the following e-mail dated at

Hallo Dimis,

Please find the details below.


E46 M3 Turbocharger Kit Offer

Chasis: E46 M3
Compression ratio: 8,5:1
Boost pressure: 1,5 bar ( 22psi)
Power: 750 hp
Torque: 830 nM (518lb/ft)
Fuel octane: 98


J.E forged pistons 8,5:1 compression ratio
Forged connecting rods
ARP connecting rod bolts
Garrett GT35R ball bearing turbocharger
Turbocharger exhaust manifold
Down pipe 3,5", stainless steel
Turbosmart wastegate 48 mm
Turbosmart blow off valve * 2
Aluminium intake manifold, ceramic coated
6 fuel injectors
Fuel pressure regulator
Racing fuel pump
Air intake pipe, aluminium polished
BMC air filter
Air to air intercooler
Intercooler piping, stainless steel
TSI engine manegement system
TSI map sensor
Crank case ventilation kit
Race Ware head studs
Race Ware head washers

Best regards

Mert Dastan




--
DA Team Chief
S50B32 + Garrett GT42 = 1.000+ hp
--
price was 8000 USD. In reality the complete assembly and kit cost 12,000 USD.

We as DA have financial wealth as we own different industrial companies in Turkey. It is not fair to talk and write like this but I am wealthy.

By sending Mr. Soultoukis the 8000 USD offer we were looking for a E46 M3 to be an "example" car. We simply are still looking for a E46 M3 to turbocharge. It will make our advertising. We are able to finance and support these projects as we are strong enough.

E36 Euro M3 is where we excelled. We sell worldwide from Jamaica to Bahrein, from Ireland to Canada our kits.

We are the first tuner which designed and manufactured MASS PRODUCED E46/E85/X3/X5 TURBOCHARGER Kits. The turbocharger kits for these vehicles will be lauched at the middle of March. British BMW magazines are invited and press will be there. The launch of the turbo kits will be with Z4 3,0L / E46 3,30ci and .....

At the end of February we are welcoming a Greek guest with the 321 hp M Roadster. Gonna make 500 hp under 100,000 km DA Motorsport warranty. 500 hp kit was offered at a special price for Greece. It will be an honour for us to modify the first Greek BMW. Later Greek BMWs will have standard prices.

Mert
E46 M3 TURBO:

We are technologically capable of turboing the E46 M3.

J.E pistons, hand made forged con rods, ARP rod bolts, Race Ware head studs, Race Ware Crank Bolts will make the bottom end bullet proof.

Garrett Turbocharger, ball bearing

TSI engine management system

Complete fuel system...

Hand made exhaust manifold

At 22 psi the E46 M3 will make minimum 750 hp with the proper software tune.

If something would fail, we offer a complete brand new engine. 100,000 km warranty is our word. International agrements will be accepted.

The gist of the story, we have been selling E36 M3 supercharger and turbocharger kits.
We have started E46/E39/E85/X3/X5 turbo kits.

Finally, we wanted to turbocharge E46 M3 and offered Soultokis a special kit. Unfortunately, he did not understand the gist of the project and instead of asking us the "special" price he asked here.

Mert
DA Team Chief
Heres some of the stuff he said...

[vaio76109]

Some more...
The offer is still valid. We will turbocharge the S54 for a very special price. Power will be 750 hp minimum. Warranty is 100,000 km (60,000 miles). The first E46 M3 will have the special price. After the production of the first kit, we will MASS PRODUCE these turbo kits.

As I have written before, our wealth steams from other industrial businesses we have. This is how we can finance this project.

For my team and me "success" is more important than money. As DA Motorsport we have spent a lot of time and energy in Forced Induction of BMWs. We have customers from all around the world, Tahiti, Jamaica, Germany, Bahrein, Italy, Ireland, United Kingdom.

We have started the " turbocharger project" for the E46/E39/E85/X3/X5. Today we have a Z4 3,0L and a Z3 2,2L being turbocharged at our facility. 100 turbocharger exhaust manifolds are being cast. These are the first "mass produced" turbocharger kits for the above mentioned BMW models.

The S54 turbocharged will be equipped with J.E forged pistons, forged connecting rods, Race Ware cylinder head studs. The turbocharger exhaust manifold will be cast. Details are very essential for us: turbocharger manifold will be ceramic coated, heated in an oven till 600 C, then cooled, and finally wrapped with insulation material. This is a small detail for heat retention and fast spool up of the Ball Bearing garrett.

To summarize, we are looking for a E46 M3 to turbocharge. It will be under our warranty for 100.000 km. Once we finish, dyno, road test with exotics, demand for the E46 M3 turbocharger kit will be amazing.

Mert
DA Team Chief

[eg6turbo]

Some more...

hows the system????

[vaio76109]

hows the system????
Very good. That reminds me, I need to go to Best Buy and spend some money :lmao:
My friend told me to get this monster cable component video(and optical audio) for my xbox so i think thats what im gonna use as my DVD. You think that will be good?

PS-Isnt odd how an OPTICAL cable carries SOUND?

[LAFENGAS]

something seems very fishy about the way that person is writing. Who prolcaims "I am very wealthy" ? in a thread like this. Not to metion his english is very broken or poor, yet he uses words like "Gonna" :hmm:

For whatever reason, i'm not believing it.

[vaio76109]

DA motorsports is a very well known company. He is also foreign so that probably explains his broken english.
http://www.da-motorsport.com/

[TaZaM3]

His shop is in Turkey.

I dunno if you guys have seen the red E36 M3 playing with the Ferrari's and Porsche's, they built that car and it only had 415 HP, now that same car has 1000HP! They know what they are doing but they are in Turkey!!

[1BADM3]

you guys need to quit believing this guy. he has proved nothing to nobody. i have read alot of his posts on BF, everytime he talks he gets clowned, thats why his azz dont post no more on there. too many turbo and s/c gurus.
as for him sayin he's "wealthy", he cant buy a damm dyno to prove he got a 1k hp in his pink m3. all the vids he showed him beating ferraris,ect...any m3 with 400+rwhp should beat it.

[vaio76109]

you guys need to quit believing this guy. he has proved nothing to nobody. i have read alot of his posts on BF, everytime he talks he gets clowned, thats why his azz dont post no more on there. too many turbo and s/c gurus.
as for him sayin he's "wealthy", he cant buy a damm dyno to prove he got a 1k hp in his pink m3. all the vids he showed him beating ferraris,ect...any m3 with 400+rwhp should beat it.
Whats not to beleive :dunno:
Hes proven he can build a very fast BMW...

[TaZaM3]

you guys need to quit believing this guy. he has proved nothing to nobody. i have read alot of his posts on BF, everytime he talks he gets clowned, thats why his azz dont post no more on there. too many turbo and s/c gurus.
as for him sayin he's "wealthy", he cant buy a damm dyno to prove he got a 1k hp in his pink m3. all the vids he showed him beating ferraris,ect...any m3 with 400+rwhp should beat it.


You have a RMS dont you>?

[Turbo M3]

oopshttp://http://damsport.7host.com/mert/Z4turboproject.gif

[vaio76109]

Here, lemme help
http://damsport.7host.com/mert/Z4turboproject.gif

[Turbo M3]

This time....

[Turbo M3]

The turbo exhaust manifold is shown,

This garrett will be used.

The car has a Steptronic transmission.

The project is true, alive, will be posted with all the details. Just need 2 weeks. After 45 psi on the Euro M3, this project is soft and sweet for us.

Mert

[VMW Racing]

So what kind of cost/output can we expect from the coming turbo system?

-C

[The 330i]

Hello Turbo M3,

Yes, the turbocharger kits work nice with the Steptronic transmissions.

Just a couple of pics of the Z4 3,0L turbocharger project.

Z4 is too dirty, it was snowing when the softtop arrived at our facility...

http://http://damsport.7host.com/mert/Z4turboproject.gif

The turbo exhaust manifold is shown,

This garrett will be used.

The car has a Steptronic transmission.

The project is true, alive, will be posted with all the details. Just need 2 weeks. After 45 psi on the Euro M3, this project is soft and sweet for us.

Mert

Thanks for the prompt reply.

1. Turbo Kit and Steptronic Transmission
1-1) What kind of output (both HP and Torque) is the kit generating?
1-2) If it is more than ASA SK I, how would DA Motorsport get around the slipping clutch issue, and ECU issue?
1-3) If it is less than ASA SK I, how would DA Motorsport justify the cost/performance issue?
1-4) How is the output curve? Assuming it is still a Turbo-based system, it would have a less linear output than Supercharger-based system, right? For example, how is turbo lag controlled/placed?

2. 45PSI of boost
2-1) Single-Turbo sytem? Twin-turbo, or Bi-Turbo?
2-2) Let alone being even a daily-driver, would this be a track-able system? How is the output curve?


Sincerely,

[vaio76109]

1. Turbo Kit and Steptronic Transmission
1-1) What kind of output (both HP and Torque) is the kit generating?
1-2) If it is more than ASA SK I, how would DA Motorsport get around the slipping clutch issue, and ECU issue?
1-3) If it is less than ASA SK I, how would DA Motorsport justify the cost/performance issue?
1-4) How is the output curve? Assuming it is still a Turbo-based system, it would have a less linear output than Supercharger-based system, right? For example, how is turbo lag controlled/placed?

2. 45PSI of boost
2-1) Single-Turbo sytem? Twin-turbo, or Bi-Turbo?
2-2) Let alone being even a daily-driver, would this be a track-able system? How is the output curve?
I can answer some of those
1-2)A HD clutch of course which I doubt is included
1-3)No worries here, it will be more undoubtedly
1-4)There will undoubtedly be turbo lag

2-1)single turbo
2-2) It would work for drag racing and such. However auto-x and road courses would be daunting. If your thinking of seriously doing either auto-x or road courses turbos arent for you.

[Turbo M3]

Power Output:

3,30i
312 hp auto tranny
365 hp manuel tranny

3,28i/3,25i
250 hp auto tranny
300 hp manuel tranny

3,23i
225 hp auto tranny
260 hp manuel tranny

Clutch can handle the extra power as long as you do not race all day long.

In case clutch fails, heavy duty pressure plates will be for sale at 380 USD.

ECU: we are negotiating with engine management system producers for 100 units. 100 systems will be purchased at once. We will use an engine management system on all cars. Fuel and ignition will be programmed. Stage 2 kits will include electronic boost control via these engine management systems.

Price will be 3500 USD for each turbocharger kit.

LAG: yes I know what lag is. We are testing different turbochargers and will find the best combination. Now, I have 5 different Garretts at the shop, each will be tested. We will use the turbocharger which has the least lag.


Mert

[Gilb3rt0]

How many psi is the 328 running?

[Gilb3rt0]

Better yet how much psi do you think the blocks will hold?? Im thinking of trying to tune my car at 10 psi when the management arrives. If I can ill try 12 psi. Do you know the limit these blocks can hold with no headgasket??

[crazy1323]

To answer the question about the blocks. I have always said that the M54B30 would be a great FI block. The only problem is the electronics. However, now that problem has finally been solved. The 330's and i would bet the 328's also, have forged internals. They can stand up to some serious boost. The head gasket would need to be changed to get a lower compression ratio. With just that chaneg we can expect some serious, M3 beating, power from 330's.

[The 330i]

Hello vaio76109,

I can answer some of those
1-2)A HD clutch of course which I doubt is included
1-3)No worries here, it will be more undoubtedly
1-4)There will undoubtedly be turbo lag

2-1)single turbo
2-2) It would work for drag racing and such. However auto-x and road courses would be daunting. If your thinking of seriously doing either auto-x or road courses turbos arent for you.

Thanks for answering. However, your answers have not solved my curiosity quite completely.

1-2) What I meant by "slipping clutch issues" is slipping transmission. I apologise for confusion. I believe I titled "Turbo and Steptronic" to avoid miscommunication - guess it wasn't enough. In case of slipping transmission (which happens, for example, after adding an ASA SK II + Larger Intercooler + Header + Full Exhaust + Camshaft), I was wondering how DA Motorsport was going to deal with it.
1-3) I am not quite certain I understand what you said. Could you elaborate more?
1-4) So, how much lag, and when? And how is DA Motorsport going to handle the lag?

2-1) Thank you.
2-2) I understand that 40psi-boosted-Turbo-cars may not be a good track car. I was very curious about the behaviour/character of this specific car because I believe in more than a peak horsepower/torque. How the power is delivered, how the power is managed is what interests me. BTW, your statement - "If your thinking of seriously doing either auto-x or road courses turbos arent for you" - I beg to differ. Porsche Turbo, Mitsubishi EVO, Subaru WRX STi, and many decent track/auto-x cars do have turbo-based system. Certainly, I don't think I need to mention Porsche 911/996 GT1 (both Strasseversion and Race Car), Porsche 911/996 GT2, and others. Although my main drive for track is based on N/A, I do think that Turbo-based cars, as long as they are very carefully and thorougly engineered and managed, can be good choices of weapons on track.


Sincerely,

[vaio76109]

To answer the question about the blocks. I have always said that the M54B30 would be a great FI block. The only problem is the electronics. However, now that problem has finally been solved. The 330's and i would bet the 328's also, have forged internals. They can stand up to some serious boost. The head gasket would need to be changed to get a lower compression ratio. With just that chaneg we can expect some serious, M3 beating, power from 330's.
I dont beleive the M54 would be a "great" FI block because its aluminum.
The 330 has forged crank and rods, and cast pistons
The 325 has forged rods, and cast crank and pistons
I dunno bout the 323 or 328

[vaio76109]

Hello vaio76109,



Thanks for answering. However, your answers have not solved my curiosity quite completely.

1-2) What I meant by "slipping clutch issues" is slipping transmission. I apologise for confusion. I believe I titled "Turbo and Steptronic" to avoid miscommunication - guess it wasn't enough. In case of slipping transmission (which happens, for example, after adding an ASA SK II + Larger Intercooler + Header + Full Exhaust + Camshaft), I was wondering how DA Motorsport was going to deal with it.
1-3) I am not quite certain I understand what you said. Could you elaborate more?
1-4) So, how much lag, and when? And how is DA Motorsport going to handle the lag?

2-1) Thank you.
2-2) I understand that 40psi-boosted-Turbo-cars may not be a good track car. I was very curious about the behaviour/character of this specific car because I believe in more than a peak horsepower/torque. How the power is delivered, how the power is managed is what interests me. BTW, your statement - "If your thinking of seriously doing either auto-x or road courses turbos arent for you" - I beg to differ. Porsche Turbo, Mitsubishi EVO, Subaru WRX STi, and many decent track/auto-x cars do have turbo-based system. Certainly, I don't think I need to mention Porsche 911/996 GT1 (both Strasseversion and Race Car), Porsche 911/996 GT2, and others. Although my main drive for track is based on N/A, I do think that Turbo-based cars, as long as they are very carefully and thorougly engineered and managed, can be good choices of weapons on track.


Sincerely,
1-2) Steptronic's dont have clutches, they have torque converters. Only manuals and SMG's have clutches :) . Only solutions ive heard for the steptronic is "level 10" but so far no one has been able to comment on it althought 1 or 2 people do have it.

1-3) I was just saying that the turbo kit DA is going to offer will unboubtedly make more power than the ASA kits.

1-4) DA will know more than I do

2-2) Sorry I was vague in that statement. I was referring to turbos in our cars in particular. Adding a turbo to a RWD car that comes NA, in most cases, will lead to a not very great auto-x or road course car. Although if your a skillfull driver it is possible to keep the car in boost around the whole track.

[The 330i]

Hello vaio76109,

1-2) Steptronic's dont have clutches, they have torque converters. Only manuals and SMG's have clutches :) . Only solutions ive heard for the steptronic is "level 10" but so far no one has been able to comment on it althought 1 or 2 people do have it.

1-3) Get back in a minute

1-4) DA will know more than I do

2-2) Sorry I was vague in that statement. I was referring to turbos in our cars in particular. Adding a turbo to a RWD car that comes NA, in most cases, will lead to a not very great auto-x or road course car. Although if your a skillfull driver it is possible to keep the car in boost around the whole track.

Thanks again for a prompt reply. :)

1-2) You're correct. It was my mistake (which I would like to insist as a typo. :P). Not only Level10 has stayed a myth on this forum - people make various comments, but no one actually has any direct experience. People who claim to try somehow disappear, etc. - but also a very reliable source told me that Level10 will not solve the problems of Steptronic-equipped cars with certain amount of power (like the power generated by superchargers). According to the source, it's not the transmission and torque converter upgrade that will solve the problem. It's the transmission ECU that needs to have torque parametre reprogrammed to "see" certain amount of power. Without such modification, if the transmission ECU observes more power than allowed from the factory, it will start "to trip faults and will lock the transmission in 4th gear."

1-3) There was, IMHO, one important, non-technical issue for DA to solve, in addition to many other technical issues to solve while developing a Turbocharger. How much power would they generate to compete with already mature superchargers? If it is more than the ASA (which they should), then how would they solve the issue of cars with steptronic transmissions (which hasn't been solved by any BMW-tuners, be it a third-party or BMW itself)? If it is less than the ASA (which they could), then how would they justify themselves? How would they market themselves? Would this be a price-sensitive item? And so on. That was what I was asking (although hoping for the first).
* Well, judging from the Turbo M3's posting above, I am assuming that the DA Motorsport is going for "same power, but cheaper" route (312hp for Step 330i/ci, for 3,500 USD). Not the answer I was dreaming about, but a good option nontheless as long as the kit becomes reality. I would still very much like to see the power curve of the Turbo kit, and compare it to the one generated by the ASA Supercharger kit.

1-4) Was hoping for DA to comment on it.

2-2) I was looking forward to see a well-thought-out, well-engineered, and well-managed Turbo system that could be used for track purposes. If I wanted to see the fastest machine for a 1/4-mile, I wouldn't have bought a BMW. Just as many of us (at least many of whom I know) dream a tuned-non-M3 that matches performance of an M3, I was hoping for a superchargerd/turbocharged BMWs that will give a healthy competition to traditional N/A ones.


Sincerely,

[vaio76109]

Power Output:

3,30i
312 hp auto tranny
365 hp manuel tranny

3,28i/3,25i
250 hp auto tranny
300 hp manuel tranny

3,23i
225 hp auto tranny
260 hp manuel tranny
Are these wheel or flywheel figures?

[wolf328ci]

dont beleive the M54 would be a "great" FI block because its aluminum.
The 330 has forged crank and rods, and cast pistons
The 325 has forged rods, and cast crank and pistons
I dunno bout the 323 or 328

330's and 328's are all forged crank and rods with coated cast pistons. 323/325 is cast crank, CAST rods and uncoated cast pistons.

The bigger displacements get the forged parts, the smaller displacements don't. Aside from having opened a couple of these up, there is a fair outline of which cars have what in the Bentley manual.

[crazy1323]

It is aluminum but the e36 motors were also aluminum (I think) and have great sucess as FI motors. Correct me if i am wrong. Do the cylinders have sleves.

[samir@technik]

1-3) I was just saying that the turbo kit DA is going to offer will unboubtedly make more power than the ASA kits.

Bit premature to make such a statement. After all, without proper ECU tuning, you can slap on any sort of "hardware" you like...doesn't mean it will make gobs of power, or run optimally. Any efforts to tune MS42/43/45 with a piggyback, won't help much since adaptation will eventually cycle out whatever changes are made. US cars are worse, due to the strict built-in emission protocols.

We explored the possibility of a turbo option for the E46...we already had the manifold and turbo mounted on one of our test cars. After further review, any sort of kit without a tuned ECU, was not a viable project to pursue...hence, we stuck with the supercharger route, which will be CARB certified, since we don't monkey with the cats or modify adaptation...something that is unavoidable with a turbo kit.

Tuning a turbo and tuning a supercharger are 2 different worlds completely. The former requires 10x more work/time to properly adjust the fuel maps for the "onset" of boost, whereas a supercharger's boost delivery is always linear. At the end of the day, the cost/benefit of developing a properly tuned turbo kit for the E46 just isn't there...at least not at this stage. I'm not saying it's not possible, just saying without a real ECU upgrade, it's not going to run optimally, nor make dramatically more power over a properly tuned supercharger.

To say that an uproven, development-stage turbo kit is going to "undoubtedly" make more power than our tuned supercharger kit is incredibly misleading. The preliminary numbers posted by Mert are already less than what we've verified with our dyno plots.

[Trends&Gadgets]

Bit premature to make such a statement. After all, without proper ECU tuning, you can slap on any sort of "hardware" you like...doesn't mean it will make gobs of power, or run optimally. Any efforts to tune MS42/43/45 with a piggyback, won't help much since adaptation will eventually cycle out whatever changes are made. US cars are worse, due to the strict built-in emission protocols.

We explored the possibility of a turbo option for the E46...we already had the manifold and turbo mounted on one of our test cars. After further review, any sort of kit without a tuned ECU, was not a viable project to pursue...hence, we stuck with the supercharger route, which will be CARB certified, since we don't monkey with the cats or modify adaptation...something that is unavoidable with a turbo kit.

Tuning a turbo and tuning a supercharger are 2 different worlds completely. The former requires 10x more work/time to properly adjust the fuel maps for the "onset" of boost, whereas a supercharger's boost delivery is always linear. At the end of the day, the cost/benefit of developing a properly tuned turbo kit for the E46 just isn't there...at least not at this stage. I'm not saying it's not possible, just saying without a real ECU upgrade, it's not going to run optimally, nor make dramatically more power over a properly tuned supercharger.

To say that an uproven, development-stage turbo kit is going to "undoubtedly" make more power than our tuned supercharger kit is incredibly misleading. The preliminary numbers posted by Mert are already less than what we've verified with our dyno plots.
O man im tired of getting teased :lmao:

Samir let me have the software so I can rip up the road :vinmac:

[iLLM3]

Turbo M3, any E46 M3 wanting your turbo kit would have to go to Turkey or have the car shipped there, correct? I will gladly be a tester for your kit in the US haha, anythign my shop does (RPM Racing) comes out a reliable beast! :thumbup:

[Trends&Gadgets]

Turbo M3, any E46 M3 wanting your turbo kit would have to go to Turkey or have the car shipped there, correct? I will gladly be a tester for your kit in the US haha, anythign my shop does (RPM Racing) comes out a reliable beast! :thumbup:
RPM does do great work :thumbup:

They did my motor swap last summer :yikes:

[The 330i]

Hello vaio76109,

Are these wheel or flywheel figures?

I am assuming it's flywheel figures, not the wheel.
312rwhp on a 330 with a Steptronic transmission is certain to slip.

Since Turbo M3 has no remedy for Step, it is only natural to assume the turbo kit is generating "safe" figures, which is the same or less than ASA SK I figures.

Please don't hesitate correcting if there is an mistake.


Sincerely,

[iLLM3]

RPM does do great work :thumbup:

They did my motor swap last summer :yikes:


yea man they know their stuff, where do you live :dunno: :thumbup: So Turbo m3 where are you, let me get your kit :thumbup:

[Iceman1]

After further review, any sort of kit without a tuned ECU, was not a viable project to pursue...hence, we stuck with the supercharger route, which will be CARB certified, since we don't monkey with the cats or modify adaptation...something that is unavoidable with a turbo kit.



what are the prospects of using a stand alone EMS... most of them come with their own ECU.. to completely replace the factory ECU... this way each application can be custom tuned for the car/owner... most (serious) japanese turbo applications are using stand alone's.

[samir@technik]

A standalone will work to tune the engine, but your options are limited to essentially only MoTec, which is quite expensive...they also prefer to have the engine mounted on an engine dyno to properly tune the fuel/ignition maps, which is another hassle. Plus, you will most likely lose the ability to interface with the stock gauge cluster since the E46 runs off a K-BUS network, which requires the additional purchase of a display to interface with the standalone.

There are other less-expensive options, but they cannot control double Vanos (at least not to my knowledge). Plus, they also have the interface issue.

When it comes to tuning BMWs, there really are no shortcuts...you gotta tune the DME directly.

[Iceman1]

There are other less-expensive options, but they cannot control double Vanos (at least not to my knowledge). Plus, they also have the interface issue.



by less expensive, you mean brands like AEM or TEC3?

i hadnt thought about the double vanos issue... however isnt double vanos a factory tuned variable timing/lift/duration map based on other conditions... on a pretty linear power curve...? double vanos is a way of having the stock car run to bmw specs for response, power, and smoothness, over the rev range ?

however if your going turbo your altering the entire map and power curve... in that case, wouldnt it be better to abandon double vanos, and tune the cam timing/lift/duration yourself along with your A/F and spark settings for a FI application with your standalone? and you can tune these on a chasis dyno...

chances are, if your buildin a serious FI application, your not looking to maintain the car running as smoothly as a stock car.

please explain the interface issue more... you mean things like the speedometer and gas gauge wont work? damn... another way to screw us over...

[samir@technik]

AEM does not have a PNP version of their standalone for the E46. Tec3 is another, less expensive option, but I'm not sure how it interfaces with the E46...I've only seen it used on the E36. For high boost apps, you would probably want to eliminate the use of any sort of Vanos operation, but for low/medium boost, it would still be worthwhile to keep, since it helps improve low-end torque.

Without a K-Bus interface, your entire gauge cluster is rendered useless...only your speedo will work, since it's directly tied to a speed sensor.

[malakia12]

Sias Tuning can make a TEC3'r work with double vanos, they have done it already with their own car, and I talked to them and said it is not a problem to do. Just too expensive, as are all stand alone kits. Not really worth I think unless you have a turbo, which is what you guys are inquiring about. :thumbup:

[MrBlonde]

something seems very fishy about the way that person is writing. Who prolcaims "I am very wealthy" ? in a thread like this. Not to metion his english is very broken or poor, yet he uses words like "Gonna"

For whatever reason, i'm not believing it.

I can vouch for Mert Dastan. He is a Turkish guy who is a customer of Herbert Gattermeier from Bavariacars (www.bavariacars.com.au) like me.

He speaks Turkish and German fluently and his English is pretty darn good! English isn't his first language which is why his written stuff can be a little odd sometimes. But I guarantee his English is better than your German .. or Turkish!

And yes, he is a businessman in Turkey, he's not making it up.

[MrBlonde]

His shop is in Turkey.

I dunno if you guys have seen the red E36 M3 playing with the Ferrari's and Porsche's, they built that car and it only had 415 HP, now that same car has 1000HP! They know what they are doing but they are in Turkey!!

Ferraris are vastly over rated. That car has less than 370 bhp .. which turbo BMW couldn't clobber it?

As for a 1,000 bhp M3 turbo .. there aren't any in the world at this point in time. Mert has no access to a dyno and so is estimating the power output from his car.

[MrBlonde]

1. Turbo Kit and Steptronic Transmission
1-1) What kind of output (both HP and Torque) is the kit generating?
1-2) If it is more than ASA SK I, how would DA Motorsport get around the slipping clutch issue, and ECU issue?
1-3) If it is less than ASA SK I, how would DA Motorsport justify the cost/performance issue?
1-4) How is the output curve? Assuming it is still a Turbo-based system, it would have a less linear output than Supercharger-based system, right? For example, how is turbo lag controlled/placed?

2. 45PSI of boost
2-1) Single-Turbo sytem? Twin-turbo, or Bi-Turbo?
2-2) Let alone being even a daily-driver, would this be a track-able system? How is the output curve?

1-1. The ASA supercharger kits for E46 330i make:
+ SK Plus: 286 bhp
+ SK I: 320 bhp
+ SK II: 340 bhp
+ SK III: 370 bhp
+ SK IV: 400 bhp

1-2. The BMW automatic transmission will not cope with anything above 290 bhp in any case. There is no way around this except for swapping in a manual transmission.

1-3. That's for the buyer to decide!

1-4. With a properly sized Garrett ball bearing turbo there will be no lag issue. Turbo lag is a vastly overstated throwback to old turbo technology (a la Porche Type 930). Things have come a long way! The turbo system will produce more horsepower and torque at any given point on the RPM range than an ASA supercharger. You can expect full bost at or before 3,000 RPM and full boost all the way to redline.

2-1. You would only consider a single turbo system.

2-2. Entirely trackable with the correct turbocharger selection. It's only when you go for massive top end power (ie big turbo) that the trackability can become .. interesting!

For street usage a turbo system is perfecto. You can drive it all day long without making boost if you so desire. This is something that you will understand once you HAVE a turbo car but sounds funny when you've never driven one.

I can answer some of those
..
1-4)There will undoubtedly be turbo lag

Wrong. See above.

..
2-2) It would work for drag racing and such. However auto-x and road courses would be daunting. If your thinking of seriously doing either auto-x or road courses turbos arent for you.

Wrong. See above. You really shouldn't post when you don't know what you're talking about, it just promotes internet misinformation and dilutes the value of these forums.

[MrBlonde]

..
Not only Level10 has stayed a myth on this forum - people make various comments, but no one actually has any direct experience.
..
It's the transmission ECU that needs to have torque parametre reprogrammed to "see" certain amount of power. Without such modification, if the transmission ECU observes more power than allowed from the factory, it will start "to trip faults and will lock the transmission in 4th gear."

The automatic transmission will not live with good power numbers. That's all there is to it.

1-3) There was, IMHO, one important, non-technical issue for DA to solve, in addition to many other technical issues to solve while developing a Turbocharger. How much power would they generate to compete with already mature superchargers?

It is easy to make more powe than the ASA supercharger setups using a turbo. Not an issue.

2-2) I was looking forward to see a well-thought-out, well-engineered, and well-managed Turbo system that could be used for track purposes. If I wanted to see the fastest machine for a 1/4-mile, I wouldn't have bought a BMW. Just as many of us (at least many of whom I know) dream a tuned-non-M3 that matches performance of an M3, I was hoping for a superchargerd/turbocharged BMWs that will give a healthy competition to traditional N/A ones.

If you couldn't clobber an E46 M3 with your turbo E46 330i then you wouldn't build it in the first place.

[MrBlonde]

what are the prospects of using a stand alone EMS... most of them come with their own ECU.. to completely replace the factory ECU... this way each application can be custom tuned for the car/owner... most (serious) japanese turbo applications are using stand alone's.

You don't want a standalone on a street car. The BMW DME is the best ECU you cold ever want .. it has millions of expert hours in the mappings for cold start, idle, part throttle, etc. It drives all the fancy electronics for your car.

A standalone would require a LOT of time to get anywhere close to 80% as good as the DME. What you DO need to do is work with the DME to give the correct amount of tuneability for your turbo system

Hence the piggyback to the DME.

And Japanese tuners are amongst the worst in the known world! Don't use them as a model.

[MrBlonde]

A standalone will work to tune the engine, but your options are limited to essentially only MoTec, which is quite expensive...they also prefer to have the engine mounted on an engine dyno to properly tune the fuel/ignition maps, which is another hassle. Plus, you will most likely lose the ability to interface with the stock gauge cluster since the E46 runs off a K-BUS network, which requires the additional purchase of a display to interface with the standalone.

There are other less-expensive options, but they cannot control double Vanos (at least not to my knowledge). Plus, they also have the interface issue.

When it comes to tuning BMWs, there really are no shortcuts...you gotta tune the DME directly.
You are only forced to Motec if you need to control fly by wire throttle or DVANOS.

The other good ECUs are developing these capabilities (Autronic, Haltech, et al).

You can use a piggyback system with the DME to avoid going Motec. If you do swap out your DME for a standalone system then you are now driving either a really slow race car or a really illegal street car.

[malakia12]

Mr. Blonde> quick question for you. Are there any piggyback units that you would recommend that you know for a fact work well with our DME? I was looking at Powerhouse Racing's MAP ECU, but when I called them they said they were not 100% sure on whether or not it would be 100% compatible with newer style BMW's.

Here is the link if you are not sure about the product. Thanks
http://www.powerhouseracing.com/mapecu.shtml

[MrBlonde]

Mr. Blonde> quick question for you. Are there any piggyback units that you would recommend that you know for a fact work well with our DME? I was looking at Powerhouse Racing's MAP ECU, but when I called them they said they were not 100% sure on whether or not it would be 100% compatible with newer style BMW's.

Yes, take a look at my signature! The TSI piggyback units available from Bavariacars (http://www.bavariacars.com.au) is what is used on my M Coupe.

[Iceman1]

yea...what i mean is either piggybacks or standlone's... there arent many advertised piggyback or standalone systems for M/S 54's... atleast in the US... id be happy with a piggyback...if thers products that can effectively work with the factory ECU... only if such a piggyback is not available would i want a standalone...

i didnt say japanese tuners were excellant.. i said japanese cars that have been turbo'd in the US... by US tuning companies and custom turbo builders/tuning shops have a good record of using piggybacks and standalone's at different performance/price levels...

basicly its software/hardware... theres expert dyno shops that can tune a car for turbo using standalone's... yes the factory tuning is excellant.. but it is not optimized... im just enquiring about my own application... EMS will provide for long term expandability and customizability at your favorite dyno shop for all you future applications... so $2500-$3000 now is not that huge of a cost because... if you decide to add cams.. or lower compression... or even change pistons/rods in the future.. you just need to go to your favorite dyno shop to get the car retuned... rather than ship the car to california...

technik... i dont know if its proprietary info but what do u guys use to tune the cars for the S/C? are you guys using piggybacks? if not what hardware/software are you using to tune the factory ECU?

[samir@technik]

You can use a piggyback system with the DME to avoid going Motec.

Sure, you can use a piggyback. You'll just need to either clear adaptations at regular intervals or reprogram the DME to reset the apaption threshold, essentially turning it "off" (not very practical).

[samir@technik]

technik... i dont know if its proprietary info but what do u guys use to tune the cars for the S/C? are you guys using piggybacks? if not what hardware/software are you using to tune the factory ECU?

We tune the DME directly, this is the best way.

[MrBlonde]

We tune the DME directly, this is the best way.

I think tuning the DME is the most elegant solution, however the TSI piggyback on my car works faultlessly (no need to clear codes) and has to contend with controlling spark, very large injectors and lots of boost.

There is always more than one way to skin the cat!

[samir@technik]

I think tuning the DME is the most elegant solution, however the TSI piggyback on my car works faultlessly (no need to clear codes) and has to contend with controlling spark, very large injectors and lots of boost.

There is always more than one way to skin the cat!

No doubt, you are correct. However, my point is simply this:

US-spec BMW engines (ie. LEV, ULEV, SULEV) + forced induction + piggyback = mucho problemo

For US DMEs, there is more code to deal with emissions faults and safety functions than there is code to make the engine run (this is why our tuning process has taken so long). This is something a piggyback can never control/overcome. Combine that with a turbocharger and your problems increase 10 fold. Non US engines are a different story as their DMEs don't have to contend with the EPA and it's lawyers. Even the new EU regs aren't nearly as strict as the EPA's LEV/ULEV/SULEV requirements. Tuning a forced induction kit to run on a US-spec BMW, undoubtedly requires reprogramming of the factory DME (at least if you want a reliable kit with no MILs) or a standalone (which would make it an "off-road use" only kit).

[MrBlonde]

No doubt, you are correct. However, my point is simply this:

US-spec BMW engines (ie. LEV, ULEV, SULEV) + forced induction + piggyback = mucho problemo

For US DMEs, there is more code to deal with emissions faults and safety functions than there is code to make the engine run (this is why our tuning process has taken so long). This is something a piggyback can never control/overcome. Combine that with a turbocharger and your problems increase 10 fold. Non US engines are a different story as their DMEs don't have to contend with the EPA and it's lawyers. Even the new EU regs aren't nearly as strict as the EPA's LEV/ULEV/SULEV requirements. Tuning a forced induction kit to run on a US-spec BMW, undoubtedly requires reprogramming of the factory DME (at least if you want a reliable kit with no MILs) or a standalone (which would make it an "off-road use" only kit).
That's something I don't know anything about. Doesn't sound liek ccommon sense is winning over there on this issue!

[vaio76109]

1
1-4. With a properly sized Garrett ball bearing turbo there will be no lag issue. Turbo lag is a vastly overstated throwback to old turbo technology (a la Porche Type 930). Things have come a long way! The turbo system will produce more horsepower and torque at any given point on the RPM range than an ASA supercharger. You can expect full bost at or before 3,000 RPM and full boost all the way to redline.

For street usage a turbo system is perfecto. You can drive it all day long without making boost if you so desire. This is something that you will understand once you HAVE a turbo car but sounds funny when you've never driven one.

Wrong. See above.

Wrong. See above. You really shouldn't post when you don't know what you're talking about, it just promotes internet misinformation and dilutes the value of these forums.
Are you kidding me? Lag is inevitable(sp?).
"You can expect full bost at or before 3,000 RPM and full boost all the way to redline." So what is it before 3000rpm? ....LAG!

[MrBlonde]

Are you kidding me? Lag is inevitable(sp?).
"You can expect full bost at or before 3,000 RPM and full boost all the way to redline." So what is it before 3000rpm? ....LAG!

And your personal experience with building and owning a turbocharged BMW is?

Let's define lag as the time it takes for your setup to spool the turbo to full boost. What it is not is a dead zonewhere there is no power. So yes there will always be lag. But if there is no performance penalty then so what?

What happens before 3,000 RPM is that you still have more power and torque than an NA build or supercharged engine.

[Iceman1]

MrBlonde... i appreciate your evangelism of turbo systems... i would like that option too... but from what i saw on bavariacars' website... most of your expertise is in S50 and S50B32 motors... i could be wrong... is that an OBDI motor? fact is were very lacking in turbo support for S54 and M54 motors.. especially US Spec ones... hopefully, you can get the ball rolling on these with your experience...

in the other thread we discussed lowering compression with either pistons or the much cheaper method of a thicker head gasket... unfortunatly... this wont do any good if i cant tune the engine for the new CR... thus the first step is availability and knowledge in tuning piggybacks... or even standalone's...

i couldnt find anything on TSI at the website you mentioned... can you steer us in the right direction for piggybacks for M/S 54 motors... not something that MIGHT work... but something thats has ALREADY worked for M/S54's.

[MrBlonde]

MrBlonde... i appreciate your evangelism of turbo systems... i would like that option too... but from what i saw on bavariacars' website... most of your expertise is in S50 and S50B32 motors... i could be wrong... is that an OBDI motor? fact is were very lacking in turbo support for S54 and M54 motors.. especially US Spec ones... hopefully, you can get the ball rolling on these with your experience...

in the other thread we discussed lowering compression with either pistons or the much cheaper method of a thicker head gasket... unfortunatly... this wont do any good if i cant tune the engine for the new CR... thus the first step is availability and knowledge in tuning piggybacks... or even standalone's...

i couldnt find anything on TSI at the website you mentioned... can you steer us in the right direction for piggybacks for M/S 54 motors... not something that MIGHT work... but something thats has ALREADY worked for M/S54's.
Well since my car is an S50B32 engine that's what I have experience in!

Bavariacars is not my business, I'm just giving you pointers to the guys who know about turbocharging BMW engines.

Mert is on the phone to Bavariacars every day or more than once a day to keep his project rolling along.

It's obvious that the US ECUs have some differences to the ones in Australia and that presents issues in terms of relating my experiences to your own project. It is useful to know that the S50B32 engine is very similar to the S54B32 engines in the E46 BMWs.

Regarding TSI piggybacks, if you want to know more then send an email to BCars.

Regarding what has ALREADY worked vs what MIGHT work, glad to see that good manners still flourish on the internet.

Good luck!

[Turbo M3]

We talk with Bavariacars at least twice a week. But not in order to make my M3 run.

DA Motorsport buys TSI engine management systems from Australia. And Bavariacars is the dealer for TSI. So far we bought many TSI and 100 units will be ordered. For the turbo E85/E46/X5 we are using TSI engine management systems. This is why we talk with Bavariacars. Moroever we buy other stuff from them too.

Kenny, I modify my BMWs and not let others do the tuning. We share know how with Gattermeiers. He is a very experienced person. We respect him. But for my M3 1000+ hp we do not talk in order to make it run.

Mert

[Dougs325]

no 325 turbo? :thumbdwn:
Although the M3 turbo is sick. 750 hp! Damn :yikes:

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

Yes 3.25i turbocharger kit is on the way too.

Mert

[vaio76109]

Yes 3.25i turbocharger kit is on the way too.

Mert
AHAHA, DA Motorposrt is now a sponsor :thumbup:

[xxcosmicxx]

:bow:

[malakia12]

so where can we pick up the TSI piggyback kit? I did not see anything on that website? Also, what is the price of the kit please?

thank you
Laki

[lordjavelox]

Mert - Im most certaintly interested, however before even 'releasing' release dates, i'd have a car done and finished. Also, I would expect more R&D on the product and a few thousand miles on the car before it was even marketed. And this isn't to speak towards the integrity of you or your company, but its simple business ethics (especially in this business) - dont talk before you have something to show for it, especially in an already questionable S54 motor. Have a car done, do a few months of beating on it, then you can talk. Till then, its just another rumor.

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

Lordjavelox,

We have no E46 M3 at our facility. But we have Z4, Z3 and E46 right now at our facility and turbochrging them.

S54 Project started when a Greek S54 owner asked us whether we can turbocharge it or not. We sent him a quotation about the S54 Turbocharger kit. We have confidence in the S54 FI project as long as best quality internals such as forged pistons and forged con rods are used with a proper engine management system. We have quoted the Greek customer and he has started a thread in another BMW forum. We DO NOT announce and have not announced the release of a S54 turbocharger kit.

Mert

[shd]

What about non-m E46? How many cars are already running with your turbos? Show pics, videos and maybe real specs, not some extrapolated.

[shoe]

So what's the cost for t/cing my 325?

[Dougs325]

...well if anybody actually made a turbo for our cars... :bawling:

[racingdynamics2]

...well if anybody actually made a turbo for our cars... :bawling:

Some1 does... rui at Azevedo motorsports does. wanna call him at 908 925 3157 and he will answer all your Qs. this is mine and there is another one... that's gilberts... Numbers and specs you ask? well i don't have any yet because i am still working on my wide body... Gilbert does not have his numbers because he just moved to Miami... so call him n he will let u know what's up

Kris

[Gilb3rt0]

Miami I wish I moved to miami. Hows the car coming along? Find out anything about our management?

[racingdynamics2]

Miami I wish I moved to miami. Hows the car coming along? Find out anything about our management?

things are good...dunno about yours but my ECU is still in the car cause they need it to move the car around... Rui said he will send it out next week... so i am guessing the situation is similar with yours. but should take a week the tech ...

[Gilb3rt0]

Sounds good. :thumbup:

[Lay2Low]

I am looking into the turbo, where are you guys going to get the ecu's programed?

[shoe]

which sponsor sells forged pistons and con rods?

[Gilb3rt0]

I dont know about pistons and conrods. My motors a la stock. Im going with tec3r, probably not the best choice for everyone cause its full stand alone engine management.

[vaio76109]

which sponsor sells forged pistons and con rods?
DA Motorsports maybe :dunno:
But no other ones do.

[malakia12]

no sponsors do, but there is a company that sells piston/rods as a combo for around $1400-$1700. I am at work right now so I don't remember the website, but when I get home tonight I will give you guys the web address. You get to choose what compression ratio you want, and they will make the rods/pistons to that compression. excellent news for all you turbo heads :thumbup:

[eg6turbo]

I dont know about pistons and conrods. My motors a la stock. Im going with tec3r, probably not the best choice for everyone cause its full stand alone engine management.

the although the tec3r can run the car..i know youll lose some fuctionality with your car....and are the going to add a throttle cable for your gas pedal??? i know that the tec3r cant control the throttle by wire....hopefully vic sias can tune out your dme...he is said to be the best...

[Gilb3rt0]

Im pretty sure azevedo motorsports will resolve the issue. As far as tuning goes im not sure yet. Id have to get the tec3r in and installed first. Actually vic was the one that told me I could use the tec3r to tune my car with the double vanos.

[Iceman1]

Im pretty sure azevedo motorsports will resolve the issue. As far as tuning goes im not sure yet. Id have to get the tec3r in and installed first. Actually vic was the one that told me I could use the tec3r to tune my car with the double vanos.

very interesting... i know vik sias tuned dado's car and has done E46's... please keep us up to date regarding your tec3 application and its implication on double vanos and your (gauge cluster bus -- as technik said)... please let us know how this goes and exactly which features you will lose due to its limitations... this could be the breakthrough on custom tuned E46's ive been waiting for...

also $1400 for pistons and rods seems extremely low... is this for E46 cars? are these forged?

[malakia12]

very interesting... i know vik sias tuned dado's car and has done E46's... please keep us up to date regarding your tec3 application and its implication on double vanos and your (gauge cluster bus -- as technik said)... please let us know how this goes and exactly which features you will lose due to its limitations... this could be the breakthrough on custom tuned E46's ive been waiting for...

also $1400 for pistons and rods seems extremely low... is this for E46 cars? are these forged?
the piston and rod combos that I was talking about are for e46's. not sure if they are forged though. like I said, I will check when I get home. also, the $1400 is not a set price, depending on what compression pistons you get will depend on what the price is. that is the beauty of it, you choose whatever compression you want

[Lay2Low]

So what is the status of the kit? ETA? Also, is the psi going to be adjustable with like a turbo boost controller or something of that nature?

[dtdionne]

So what is the status of the kit? ETA? Also, is the psi going to be adjustable with like a turbo boost controller or something of that nature?

Agreed...anything new??

[xxe46xx]

bump

[redronin]

bump
LOL.