Intake manifold swap...what will fit?

[Oshin02]

Well guys, I was doing sum research here and there and I was informed that the older intake manifolds (E36) flow better then the one currently on my car.
1.) Is this true?
2.) What manifold will bolt up to a 330ci?
3.) How much HP gain should I hope to see?
4.) Will this be a positive if I go?
5.) will it be worht the effort to weld one together?

-Thanks!

[SLEEP3R]

Well guys, I was doing sum research here and there and I was informed that the older intake manifolds (E36) flow better then the one currently on my car.
1.) Is this true?
2.) What manifold will bolt up to a 330ci?
3.) How much HP gain should I hope to see?
4.) Will this be a positive if I go?
5.) will it be worht the effort to weld one together?

-Thanks!
ive never heard of this before. i know e36ers swap in an m50 intake manifold for more air flow in top end but ive never heard of an e46er swapping in an m50 manifold into their e46 :hmm:

[RichP]

Yeah, that is true..for E36s.

The e46 and e36 manifolds are rather different, it would be about impossible to retrofit it, and probably for no gain or perhaps loss in power (E46 manifold is dual stage, E36 is not)

And you cant weld them; they are plastic!

[racingdynamics2]

Yeah, that is true..for E36s.

The e46 and e36 manifolds are rather different, it would be about impossible to retrofit it, and probably for no gain or perhaps loss in power (E46 manifold is dual stage, E36 is not)

And you cant weld them; they are plastic!


i know some1 that has done it on his e46 328 turbo

[Oshin02]

That is the guy I was looking for but lost his user name. I think there is one that did it to a 330ci (correct me if I'm wrong). Or it might even be him.ynamics2]i know some1 that has done it on his e46 328 turbo[/QUOTE]

[Mike Benvo]

That is the guy I was looking for but lost his user name. I think there is one that did it to a 330ci (correct me if I'm wrong). Or it might even be him.ynamics2]i know some1 that has done it on his e46 328 turbo[/QUOTE]
I remember someone having it also..

[Gilb3rt0]

I swapped out my e46 328 manifold for a obd1 e36 m3 manifold. Alot of the FI guys in e36s do the same swap cause it flows better. So far im working on getting the car up to pa to get it tuned. I however am using stand alone management so I could do this manifold swap. I dont know if anyone using the stock ecu could do it though.

[vaio76109]

Another reason why i beleive its not possible is due to DSC and DBW, altho im not shure.

[Oshin02]

Hey, it was you I was looking for!........I lost your user name so I had to make this thread. Do you happen to think it will bolt on to a 330? Thanks!
I swapped out my e46 328 manifold for a obd1 e36 m3 manifold. Alot of the FI guys in e36s do the same swap cause it flows better. So far im working on getting the car up to pa to get it tuned. I however am using stand alone management so I could do this manifold swap. I dont know if anyone using the stock ecu could do it though.

[Gilb3rt0]

I dont know man. If your thinking of running stand alone I say go for it. But if your thinking of keeping your stock ecu I doubt it will work.

[Oshin02]

What do u mean by "it wont work"..........may you please make it a bit clear?............the car wont turn on or it will run really lean? Thanks!
I dont know man. If your thinking of running stand alone I say go for it. But if your thinking of keeping your stock ecu I doubt it will work.

[Gilb3rt0]

doesnt the 330 manifolds control the dsc or soemthing? i know theyre complicated in some way.

[vaio76109]

doesnt the 330 manifolds control the dsc or soemthing? i know theyre complicated in some way.
Well yea theres DBW and, and the DSC can control the DBW.

[Oshin02]

I think the DSC is controleld threw he electronic throttle body.
doesnt the 330 manifolds control the dsc or soemthing? i know theyre complicated in some way.

[Oshin02]

I got OBD1 E36 m3 manifold in and I am going to attempt the swap after some cosmeic work is done to it. Along with the swap, I will bore out the intake ports on the head to create an "invitational" intake port (thanks to tecknik for the info). What are the things I should watch out for? There is a lot of wiring on my original intake manifold......by the way, not a big fan of traction control so it won’t bother me to delete the option due to me hearing sum facts about it not working on the OBD1 manifolds

[Oshin02]

Well yea theres DBW and, and the DSC can control the DBW.

what is the DBW? Thanks

[vaio76109]

Drive By Wire

[killswitch]

I got OBD1 E36 m3 manifold in and I am going to attempt the swap after some cosmeic work is done to it. Along with the swap, I will bore out the intake ports on the head to create an "invitational" intake port (thanks to tecknik for the info). What are the things I should watch out for? There is a lot of wiring on my original intake manifold......by the way, not a big fan of traction control so it won’t bother me to delete the option due to me hearing sum facts about it not working on the OBD1 manifolds
Any updates? :thumbup:

[BlumberB18]

Yea ^^^^ If that works for you im going to be the next one to do this

[Quick Silver]

I got OBD1 E36 m3 manifold in and I am going to attempt the swap after some cosmeic work is done to it. Along with the swap, I will bore out the intake ports on the head to create an "invitational" intake port (thanks to tecknik for the info). What are the things I should watch out for? There is a lot of wiring on my original intake manifold......by the way, not a big fan of traction control so it won’t bother me to delete the option due to me hearing sum facts about it not working on the OBD1 manifolds

bump..did this ever work?

[funkyman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180083271820&rd=1,1

This quality manifold might do the trick.

This Manifold fits all E36 BMW with 2.5, 2.8 and 3.0 liter engine M3.
Also fits E46 328, 330.
This manifold won't fit E46 M3
It has a T3 style Turbo flange with a 38mm Tial style external waste gate flange.

All our manifolds are Top Quality cast units.
They are cast iron with a High Nickel alloy.
We are the designer of all our products. We do not copy anyone's design. If there is another manifold that looks like ours, it is a copy of our original design. Beware of cheap imitations.

[pei330ci]

This quality manifold might do the trick.



That's an exhaust manifold, this thread is about intake manifolds.

Back on topic:

The port shape is different on the M54 and M52/S52 heads. In order to make an older manifold match up to the 330 head perfectly, you will end up cutting into the coolant circuit/water jacket on the head. I don't think this is worth the effort in this regard, as the cross sectional area of the runners is very close. The runners are simply shaped differently.

I've also heard from various sources that the M54B30 manifold is actually quite a big step forward versus the M54B25 and M54B38 engines. On a race engine, one tuner recently saw a 30 hp gain just from swapping from a 2.5L to a 3.0 intake manifold. One thing I should caution everyone about is that HP gains most often come by moving the entire "power band" upwards in RPM. It's really hard to get any more than 80 Lb/ft of torque per liter of displacement on a street engine. Moving the power band upwards is more a function of the camshafts than the intake manifold.

I do agree that there are some potential restrictive areas of the M54B30 intake manifold, but at this point we are all speculating on airflow with total disregard to the sonic tuning of the manifold. Most of the big leaps forward in engine efficiency over the past 10 years have come from tuning manifold resonances and pressure waves inside of the manifold. The only way to find out any of the above though, is to start building and testing manifolds. To date, I believe Technic Engineering is the only company that has done this, although their focus was on forced induction applications which totally negates the need for high port velocities at lower RPMs.(Smaller intake runners) Turner and Sunbelt haven't pursued M54 manifold openly, because the rules they build their engines to forbid it. That said, they are getting pretty good results out of the M54B30 manifold.

To change from DBW to a cable actuated throttle will require the following:

-Adapter plate for older throttle body
-Older (and smaller) throttle body
-Stand alone engine management system
-Mechanical throttle pedal

Just so you know, you'd be taking a step backwards in engine control ablity to get better throttle response. I haven't seen many "race cars" that come with DBW stock running without it...it's actually prefered for racing.

The biggest difference between the OBD2 and OBD1 manifolds on the BMWs is that the M54 engines use an intake manifold resonance valve flap, (DISA) and the OBD1 M52 engines don't. If you really want to see what it's like to run an older manifold, remove the DISA valve. (I'm currently having an aluminum block off plate machined to try this with.)

I don't think that the M54B30 manifold is as big a restriction as people seem to think that it is.

[funkyman]

You might be able to purchase an HPF manifold if they don`t charge an arm and a leg

[pei330ci]

You might be able to purchase an HPF manifold if they don`t charge an arm and a leg

Where do you see that they have one offered for a Naturally Aspirated application?

[Quick Silver]

What about an Alpina manifold? Would this work well with FI?

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

Where do you see that they have one offered for a Naturally Aspirated application?

He's still talking FI, and I think the M3 would be the only intake they have currently.

[Activ3]

I came very close to using the OBDI manifold on my e46 328. There are ports in the cylinder head that need to be welded shut, and you need to modify the temp. sensor as well. Since my car isn't dbw, I was able to bolt up my stock throttle body by just using a simple adapter plate.

I was informed by AA that the swap would have worked fine, but that they were pretty sure I'd lose a good amount of low end power. The OBDI manifold will eliminate your DISA unit, therefore converting you back to a single stage manifold. Power will be gained in the upper powerband, but you'll lose some down low.

Since my car is a daily, I didn't want to risk losing any tq.

I'm currently working on getting an M54b30 manifold on to my car, seems like it will bolt right up, just needs an adapter plate made for the TB to fit fight.

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

I came very close to using the OBDI manifold on my e46 328. There are ports in the cylinder head that need to be welded shut, and you need to modify the temp. sensor as well. Since my car isn't dbw, I was able to bolt up my stock throttle body by just using a simple adapter plate.

I was informed by AA that the swap would have worked fine, but that they were pretty sure I'd lose a good amount of low end power. The OBDI manifold will eliminate your DISA unit, therefore converting you back to a single stage manifold. Power will be gained in the upper powerband, but you'll lose some down low.

Since my car is a daily, I didn't want to risk losing any tq.

I'm currently working on getting an M54b30 manifold on to my car, seems like it will bolt right up, just needs an adapter plate made for the TB to fit fight.
330 TB ftw bro. 3.5" vs 3"....just do it all at once and make AA get you some tuning to work :str8pimpi

[icosaca]

now you guys are forgeting that the smaller the manifold, the more torque you will get.
i am doing a 3.0 motor convertion, and everyone i have talked to suggested me to leave my 2.5 intake manifold because i will get more torque.
i am changing my MAF to 3.0 though...
jorge saca

[Activ3]

330 TB ftw bro. 3.5" vs 3"....just do it all at once and make AA get you some tuning to work :str8pimpi
I don't have DBW, I'd have to convert the 330 TB to a cable and all that, which I'm not even sure can be done :dunno:

[Activ3]

now you guys are forgeting that the smaller the manifold, the more torque you will get.
i am doing a 3.0 motor convertion, and everyone i have talked to suggested me to leave my 2.5 intake manifold because i will get more torque.
i am changing my MAF to 3.0 though...
jorge saca
But I want more HP... for teh track :D

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

I don't have DBW, I'd have to convert the 330 TB to a cable and all that, which I'm not even sure can be done :dunno:

:banghead: I'm an idiot. 540 intake setup FTW :eeps:

[icosaca]

But I want more HP... for teh track :D

wouldnt more torque be better on the 1/4 mille????? and i also think its better for circuit tracks because you get more speed faster when you come out of the turns....
am i wrong here david???
jorge saca

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

wouldnt more torque be better on the 1/4 mille????? and i also think its better for circuit tracks because you get more speed faster when you come out of the turns....
am i wrong here david???
jorge saca

Torque is how much brute force the engine has at any particular time, horsepower is the ability of the engine to do work at any particular time. If you can take a flat power band, shift the bottom half down 5% and the top half up 5%, then manage to keep the engine in the top half most of the time, you've gained speed at the track.

You can gear a high revving engine that makes 200 HP to be just as fast a normal engine that makes 200 HP (assuming a certain number of similarities). In general HP will be more important than torque in racing, and torque more important in traffic situations.

[Activ3]

wouldnt more torque be better on the 1/4 mille????? and i also think its better for circuit tracks because you get more speed faster when you come out of the turns....
am i wrong here david???
jorge saca
Jorge, for the 1/4, more HP is better, tq only matters with the launch, and you can just launch at a higher rpm if you have less tq.

Remember when drag racing, your rpm is always above 4k or so after the launch, which is where the HP is, not the tq.

Same goes for the track, on a circuit, you're always in the upper rpms, if you need to slow down, you downshift, keeping the car at a higher rpm.

[icosaca]

Jorge, for the 1/4, more HP is better, tq only matters with the launch, and you can just launch at a higher rpm if you have less tq.

Remember when drag racing, your rpm is always above 4k or so after the launch, which is where the HP is, not the tq.

Same goes for the track, on a circuit, you're always in the upper rpms, if you need to slow down, you downshift, keeping the car at a higher rpm.

gotchaaa..........so no i need to buy a freaking 3.0 intake manifold aswell.....:eeps:
seems this is a never ending story......LOL.......
jorge saca
ps...should i get 3.0 intake manifold, or another??? if so, wich???

[Activ3]

3.0 ftw

[icosaca]

3.0 ftw

will that be a direct bolt on ??????
jorge saca

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

will that be a direct bolt on ??????
jorge saca

You've got a lot of things to sit back and look at.

If you are pushing air into the engine (FI) you will see LESS boost with a free-er flowing intake and exhaust system. That doesn't however mean less air is getting to be burned in the engine, so its not a bad thing. Just keep in mind, that your cooling system has some limit X KJ/hour that it can cool the car too, the gas spraying in takes some mount of energy to vaporize, the intake air some amount of energy to heat, W/A injection etc. the same, aside from that - you CAN and WILL experience heat soak to the point of engine failure if you get too much flow/power on an aluminum block.

Iron gets stronger with a couple hundred degrees of heat, steel especially does, which is why it is so ideal for reinforcing brake calipers and engine blocks. Aluminum gets weaker (significantly) with heat. So you want to take a step back and look at everything you are doing, what your goals are, and what kind of reliability you want from the car.

A built M54b30 (basically what you are asking about making) is a great platform for a fairly large amount of power. The I6 has a strong bottom end, and the engine is capable of plenty of RPM with the correct upgrades (without bad vibration issues). But there are limits in power, and you see a point of diminishing returns as you get further and further into stuff.

And to try to answer your question now (I'm giving you ideas to try searching for btw) - a 3 liter intake system would essentially finish your job off of building a 3L M54....

[icosaca]

thank you tyler...
i do know the alum block is not the perfect thing to have for building big power.
i actually know i will not be able to get more than 450 WHP from that motor. (450whp being my goal).hopefully in some time in the future, someone wll develop a reinforced block for this car.
the car is not a daily driver anymore....its my toy. but hopefully i can build things right, and still be as reliable as is right now.
thanks
jorge saca