Question to Samir @ TE

[kerisabe]

Samir,

I got a question about the Schrick 264/248 Cams were just installed in the car. The last time we spoke, yes, you were right. The timing on the cams were not adjusted correctly, he missed by a lil bit that created that lumpiness of the engine. Not because of the O2 sensors.

So he corrected the timings on the cams. He told me the timing is now 100% ok. :thumbup:

But there is still one code that triggers the ENGINE Light:

105 Control VANOS position, inlet camshaft OBDII: P1522

The mech that installed the cams told me the engine light triggered by the Camshafts and header that has just been installed and told me to contact whoever that can custom program the ECU and the engine light will GO. But I remember that u've told me that there will be no problem with the car even without running w/ any software.

Today I went to see Gary from UPSOLUTE Tuning, cause he can do the custom programming. He scanned the Check Engine Light and found that code Ive written above. And told me there are two reasons why this code came on:

1. The Intake Cam is not correctly adjusted (but my mech told me it's 100% ok and he double checked it the last time he fixed it and I saw it in the computer/his scanned that everything is running fine.

2. The Cams sensors has gone malfunction.

Which one is true? Now I don't know who to believe that's why I'm asking you the master of all of this:thanks:

Thanks in advance Samir. Hope this thread will help other members (who doesn't have theirs installed by Technik) who's havin trouble with the cams install.

[samir@technik]

1. The Intake Cam is not correctly adjusted (but my mech told me it's 100% ok and he double checked it the last time he fixed it and I saw it in the computer/his scanned that everything is running fine.

There's your answer. Your mechanic is wrong. If he doesn't have the OE tools, he can't get the timing right.

[kerisabe]

Samir,

thank you for your quick response! Yes, that's what I thought too, but the mech showed me the cams are working fine when the engine is running.

I feel the car lumps a bit when I don't put enough acceleration during idle to around 1K rpm. And I feel a short lag when the needle hits 4k RPM.

[samir@technik]

The DME is throwing a vanos code and your car is not running right. Clearly, there is a hardware issue due to incorrect installation. "Software" will not fix this. The cams do not require software to run correctly. If your tech does not have the OE tools, then he cannot time the cams correctly. This is why I asked specifically if your tech has the right tools <i>before</i> you had them put in.

There are 6 tools as described in the TIS cam instructions. The double Vanos cannot be set correctly without them.

This being the most critical of the tools:

<img src="http://207.198.100.228/images/doublevanostool.jpg">

The vanos spline gear on the end of each OE cam must be transferred in EXACTLY the same position to the new Schrick cams. There is a double tooth on the gear that needs to be marked and positioned. If it is off by even 1 degree, the timing is off.

[kerisabe]

I've asked em a million times about the 6 OE special tools that u told me. And he kept answering yes yes yes yes. I'm just gonna go back today and tell em to fix this and borrow the OE tools from the dealerships. It's less hassle then borrowing it from u since he knows the dealerships here well. Any other important things to know that u want me to tell the mech? :dunno: The last time he showed me on his scanner that my cams work correctly, he didn't even show me the error code, and just resetted the CEL. lol. He kept tellin me it's either because of the High Flow cats I put in or the car needs to be reprogrammed because of these aggressive mods lol.

[Clem]

Good luck with your dealer.

I know when I went to my local dealer they did not have the tools and I was told by one of the Master Techs that they did not order/buy them b/c OEM cams have the VANOS gears pre-installed so I was SOL when I wanted to get cams in my car.

[samir@technik]

I've asked em a million times about the 6 OE special tools that u told me. And he kept answering yes yes yes yes. I'm just gonna go back today and tell em to fix this and borrow the OE tools from the dealerships. It's less hassle then borrowing it from u since he knows the dealerships here well. Any other important things to know that u want me to tell the mech? :dunno: The last time he showed me on his scanner that my cams work correctly, he didn't even show me the error code, and just resetted the CEL. lol. He kept tellin me it's either because of the High Flow cats I put in or the car needs to be reprogrammed because of these aggressive mods lol.

The biggest concern is that he didn't transfer the vanos gear properly. You only get one shot at it, since once you remove it off the OE cam, you've lost the correct position if you did not mark it. He'll need to get another set of OE cams and mark the position of the double tooth if he didn't do this the first time.

[Alan L.]

I was lucky to have a bmw master tech install my Schrick cams on the side. No cels and the engine ran as smooth as butter.

[kerisabe]

The biggest concern is that he didn't transfer the vanos gear properly. You only get one shot at it, since once you remove it off the OE cam, you've lost the correct position if you did not mark it. He'll need to get another set of OE cams and mark the position of the double tooth if he didn't do this the first time.


Samir,

I'm actually at the shop right now. We've resetted the engine light and everything works fine. Minor lag on those 2 positions I've told u. We're cooling the engine right now. He's gonna take it out all apart again. Yea, he said the same thing as you about the cams gears. He's gonna re-adjust that. Wish us luck, hopefully no CEL this time. Thanks for all your support, I really appreciate it.:thumbup:

[kerisabe]

Samir,

My mechanic have fixed everything up. He redid everything again from zero. The code doesn't come on...but I still feel the slight lag on 4K rpm just like last time. The car sound bassier now than before. No codes so far:thumbup: Do u know what might be the cause of the lag? Would it be cause it's 264? Cause the last time I talked to Schrick they said they don't recommend to put 264/248 cams in a 2.5L Why wouldn't they recommend this setup?

Btw, the car run as smooth as before the cams are taken off, but this time NO CEL :)

[kerisabe]

I was lucky to have a bmw master tech install my Schrick cams on the side. No cels and the engine ran as smooth as butter.

Alan, if u don't mind me asking, which cams were installed in your car?

[samir@technik]

but I still feel the slight lag on 4K rpm just like last time.

The DISA valve switches over at 4K, that's probably what you're feeling. But I'm still not convinced the timing is 100% right. You'll need to put some more mileage on it to be certain there are no longer any Vanos codes.

Would it be cause it's 264? Cause the last time I talked to Schrick they said they don't recommend to put 264/248 cams in a 2.5L Why wouldn't they recommend this setup?

Because they don't officially have an application for non-330s, but the cams are interchangeable across all E46 engines.

[kerisabe]

The DISA valve switches over at 4K, that's probably what you're feeling. But I'm still not convinced the timing is 100% right. You'll need to put some more mileage on it to be certain there are no longer any Vanos codes.

Yep, I'll put more mileage on the car and keep u updated. Don't have doubts on the mech Samir. :thanks:


Because they don't officially have an application for non-330s, but the cams are interchangeable across all E46 engines.

Ic, thanks for clearing that up:thumbup:

[kerisabe]

Bad news..

CEL came back on.. this time is the OUTLET Camshaft lol. Last time was the INLET. :bawling: So Samir, how come these errors keep occuring in the install
?? :dunno: OE tools are properly used like u said.:dunno:

[samir@technik]

So Samir, how come these errors keep occuring in the install
?? :dunno:

Because they weren't installed properly the first time. Once you remove the Vanos gear and transfer it to the new cams, if you didn't mark it correctly (which is what happened here), it's virtually impossible to then "reset" it correctly. Like I said before, you only get one shot at it. If you screw up, then you need to start all over again and use another set of OE cams as a reference point.

Therefore, having your tech adjust things isn't going to fix anything. He needs to start over and this time get another set of OE cams, mark the doubletooth on each spline gear and reset them on the Schrick cams. Then put them back in using the OE tools and follow the TIS instructions to make sure the Vanos unit is reassembled correctly.

Installing cams on the M52TU/M54 is very difficult and requires extreme precision during reassembly.

[kerisabe]

Because they weren't installed properly the first time. Once you remove the Vanos gear and transfer it to the new cams, if you didn't mark it correctly (which is what happened here), it's virtually impossible to then "reset" it correctly. Like I said before, you only get one shot at it. If you screw up, then you need to start all over again and use another set of OE cams as a reference point.

Therefore, having your tech adjust things isn't going to fix anything. He needs to start over and this time get another set of OE cams, mark the doubletooth on each spline gear and reset them on the Schrick cams. Then put them back in using the OE tools and follow the TIS instructions to make sure the Vanos unit is reassembled correctly.

Installing cams on the M52TU/M54 is very difficult and requires extreme precision during reassembly.

What do you mean by getting another set of OE cams?

[samir@technik]

You need to find a set of OE cams so you can mark the gear correctly. You no longer have an accurate reference point, so you can't fix the problem until you do.

[samir@technik]

This is what I'm talking about (see pic below). Notice there is a "gap" in the teeth on each helical gear. This gap is the reference point which MUST BE MARKED before you take this gear off the OE cam and transfer it to the new cam. If you lose the position, then you will not be able to set the timing properly. These helical gears are actuated by cup gears inside the Vanos unit. The Vanos advances or retards the cam position by pressurizing a solenoid, which pushes or retracts the cup gear along the helical gear attached to the cam. If the gear is not positioned correctly, not only will the timing be off, but the advancement or retardation of the cam position will be off also. This is very dangerous and must be avoided, especially if the position is <i>really</i> off...then you can risk bending valves when the DME actuates the solenoid.

If I were you, I would stop driving the car, tow it back to the tech and make sure he gets a fresh set of OE cams (either from a junkyard, etc.), marks the gear correctly this time and then reinstalls the cams with the BMW tools while following the TIS instructions.

<img src="http://www.technikpower.com/temp/doublevanos.jpg">

[kerisabe]

getting a set of OE Cams that are still installed, or can I just use my previous cams that were taken off from the car?

[JetBlackE46]

maybe you can find a buddy or fellow fanatic willing to let your mechanic use his stock cams as a reference?

[bernstem]

getting a set of OE Cams that are still installed, or can I just use my previous cams that were taken off from the car?

In order to mount the VANOS gears on the cams you will need a set of cams that are either already installed correctly or a set of stock cams from BMW. The Schrick cams come without the VANOS gears mounted, but the OEM cams have the VANOS gears premounted on the cams from BMW.

[kerisabe]

I reviewed the stuff Samir posted above with the mechanic this morning.

The tech said he did all the procedures above, he even showed me the manual on how to change the OE Cams (TIS Instruc) Anyways, he said the marks are there, all the procedures are done right, the last time the INLET error came up...and last night it was the OUTLET.

Any other suggestions on what we should do this time:dunno:

[samir@technik]

The tech said he did all the procedures above,

Clearly not. The cams weren't set right the first time, which means he couldn't have set it after that. The DME is still throwing codes.

he even showed me the manual on how to change the OE Cams (TIS Instruc)

The TIS doesn't state to mark this gear on the cam, because the OE cams already have it attached. Therefore, if he didn't know how to do this with a set of aftermarket cams, then he would have missed that, which would explain the problems you're having.

Anyways, he said the marks are there, all the procedures are done right, the last time the INLET error came up...and last night it was the OUTLET.

We can keep going in circles with this. Clearly the procedure was not done right. He may have adjusted it, but now the problem is on the outlet side, which means the position is still off. I am telling you, the gear attached to the cam is not in it's correct position. If it was, the DME wouldn't be throwing codes. Software is not a magic key that "unlocks" things. It's just a stock file with modified values for fuel and spark. The DME is blind, all it sees is airflow and exhaust O2 composition, that's it. It cannot fix a hardware problem.

Any other suggestions on what we should do this time:dunno:

I already stated above what he needs to do. I suggest you find a shop that knows what they're doing.

[kerisabe]

Samir,

my tech is tryin to call u this second to the numbers listed on your site. U got any straight number to your cell, so we can contact you right away. Pls PM me or sent the number to my email. Pls let me know as soon as you got this msg. Thanks. Chris

[pei330ci]

I don't mean to complicate the issue, but I have these cams installed in my 2001 330Ci. I've been running them now since September, and have not had a CEL or fault code. Here's the kicker, the shop that installed them took notice of the lack of an alignment pin on the cams, and marked the position manually. NO special tool was used.

After reading the previous posts on this topic, I called TMS (where I purchased them from) for more info on installation. The comment from their customer service dept., was that if they are installed incorrectly the engine would throw fault codes right away. Some of the other symptoms mentioned were a rough idle and hesitation/stutering below 4000 RPM.

I think that I was fortunate to have great techs/mechanics work on my car without the special tool mentioned above. (The shop's name is Halifax Autosport.)They brought me "into the loop" with their concern for this variable early in the installation process. If I were to have them installed again, yes I would probably ask that the proper alignment tool be obtained to do the job. But at this point, I appear to be the benifactor of a combination of luck and my tech's/mechanic's competence.

Best of luck,

Adam

[samir@technik]

I sent you an email with the right number to call, but I already explained everything your tech needs to know.

[bernstem]

Normally I don't post in these threads. I'm not a mechanic and there are many people with far more knowledge than me. I will, however, post a few points because I think several things have become confusing and because I recently installed cams on my car.

There are two issues with installing aftermarket cams. The first is that they don't come with the VANOS gear installed on the cams - unlike OEM BMW cams. Because of this, you need to pay close attention to the alignment of the VANOS gear when transferring it from your old cams to the new aftermarket cams. As far as I know there is no tool for aligning the VANOS gear on the camshaft itself (since they come with it installed by BMW on the OEM cams), you simply have to pay close attention when transferring the gears and align them perfectly. Similarly it isn't really written down in any of the BMW repair manuals or official documentation how to do this since there is no need from BMW's perspective - after all, the VANOS gear comes installed already.

The second issue is the alignment of the VANOS. Once the VANOS gear is installed on the cams and the cams are being installed in the head, they need to be aligned with top dead center. This is done with the special BMW tools and also needs to be done perfectly. This procedure is well documented in the repair manuals since it must be done with the stock cams as well.

This is my understanding of the issue. Both steps need to be done correctly for the engine to run without issues and just having the BMW tools is not enough. If anything I have said is wrong, please, someone with more knowledge, correct me.

[sjo328ci]

I installed my Schrick cams myself and can confirm everything he said. I made the same mistake that kerisabe's mechanic made, working under the (perfectly reasonable) assumption that there would be some sort of indexing feature (keyway, pin and slot, flat (SOMETHING!) to locate the double width spline tooth correctly on the cam. There wasn't of course, but I had no way of knowing that until I removed the spline cup.
There is however at least one special tool on the planet that will perform the alignment and it belongs to Turner Motorsport. They made it themselves for their own use when installing non-factory cams. Since I bought the cams from them they were perfectly happy to rent it to me. Talk to Doug Mahar at TMS. I think he will be willing to help you.

[silver4dracs]

any update?

[russ330]

As an outside observer it's painfully obvious that the shop you took your car to doesn't know WTF they're doing. :eek:

[chuckc]

I installed my Schrick cams myself and can confirm everything he said. I made the same mistake that kerisabe's mechanic made, working under the (perfectly reasonable) assumption that there would be some sort of indexing feature (keyway, pin and slot, flat (SOMETHING!) to locate the double width spline tooth correctly on the cam. There wasn't of course, but I had no way of knowing that until I removed the spline cup.
There is however at least one special tool on the planet that will perform the alignment and it belongs to Turner Motorsport. They made it themselves for their own use when installing non-factory cams. Since I bought the cams from them they were perfectly happy to rent it to me. Talk to Doug Mahar at TMS. I think he will be willing to help you.

A few of us are looking for feedback on how well the aftermarket cams such as yours work in the NA application. What are your impressions as far as powerband, overall response of the motor etc ?

[sjo328ci]

The Schrick 264/248 cams kick ass! Put 'em in!

[Amir]

I would have to say that the alignment is critical. When I was getting cams installed about 3 years ago on my 330, my idiot mechanic didn't time them right the first time. Once I took off, the car just sputtered and the engine died. I ended up bending all 12 exhaust valves.

So after he fixes it, the cams were mistimed again, and the car was misfiring badly. I guess the timing was slightly better the second time. Nonetheless, I would definitely not recommend you drive your car with mistimed cams, could have some nasty consequences with your engine....

[kerisabe]

Samir,

is it true , the locations of the gears are stamped on the OE Cams? So I can just find the reference points of the gears on my OE Cams?

Thanks

[imolazhp_ci]

Samir,

is it true , the locations of the gears are stamped on the OE Cams? So I can just find the reference points of the gears on my OE Cams?

Thanks

isn't that what he said nearly 10 times already? i don't see the extreme difficulty you are experiencing.

[kerisabe]

isn't that what he said nearly 10 times already? i don't see the extreme difficulty you are experiencing.


Ya! I don't see it either! lol The thing is, it's the mech's problem and I've paid him and he needs to get the job done correctly. I was thinkin of just droppin my car off at another place, but that guy gotta finish the job.:thumbup:

[samir@technik]

Samir,

is it true , the locations of the gears are stamped on the OE Cams? So I can just find the reference points of the gears on my OE Cams?

Thanks

No, as I stated before: Once the gear is removed, you've lost the reference point. I already said you need to find another pair of OE cams to find the reference point. Your OE cams are useless at this point.

[kerisabe]

No, as I stated before: Once the gear is removed, you've lost the reference point. I already said you need to find another pair of OE cams to find the reference point. Your OE cams are useless at this point.

Samir,

The mech today borrowed a 330i from the dealership to look for the Points on the Cams gears and still, the CEL is there! I dunno wether he tried or not, but anyways, enough with him tryin to solve this problem. I'm takin my car to another place that I do my stuff at.

I kindda regret it and not that I brought my car to this new place and the cams install didn't go well. Hopefully my old shop can fix the problem. I'll keep you guys updated.:thumbup:

[kerisabe]

Samir,

Could you please contact me ASAP through email. I've been callin your tech line but nobody answered. Cross Avenue needs the Special Tool 11-6-150. They're lookin to buy the tool from you (or rent it if u don't want to sell it). So could you pls contact me back asap. Thanks

Chris

[russ330]

^Technik is in the middle of moving locations right now, so it may be kind of difficult to get a hold of Samir.

[samir@technik]

Samir,

Could you please contact me ASAP through email. I've been callin your tech line but nobody answered. Cross Avenue needs the Special Tool 11-6-150. They're lookin to buy the tool from you (or rent it if u don't want to sell it). So could you pls contact me back asap. Thanks

Chris

Why not email me directly, instead of wasting a post?

[kerisabe]

Why not email me directly, instead of wasting a post?

Email Sent:thumbup:

[kerisabe]

Samir,

I just want to say thanks for the help and quickness of the tool shipment! I really appreciate it:thumbup: I'll be shipping it back to you early tomorrow morning. Car is running flawlessly now, and YES, I felt more power comin out of the car.

The first cams install attempt at the first shop went BAD, so I had the car sent to another shop which I usually go and they fixed the problems. Detailed story is written in this thread: http://maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61831

[bernstem]

Glad to hear you sorted everything out. Do you know what exactly wasn't done right at the first shop?

[kerisabe]

Glad to hear you sorted everything out. Do you know what exactly wasn't done right at the first shop?

Thanks.. Im not too sure, but for sure, the shop that did the 1st attempt broke a few bolts on the cams mechanism inside the engine. Some of em were broken, and on some of the bolts... they flatted the threads on the bolts lol. They didn't change a few stuff that might cause leaks in the engine like valve covers, gaskets, spark plugs, and lots of other things. When I got time off school I'll go back to the shop where they fixed the problems and asked in details of what went wrong with the previous shop that caused the CEL to come on. I'll post it here for sure just for heads up for other members.

[m002]

Kris, what are you doing to your car. Alex at Europa do not do such a complicated install. They are more like a stock mechanic ppl. Cross AVE. is the kind to do aftermarket install because they are associate with Dinan. Now you might have to get another OE CAM to do this. Good luck on your install.:)