Another sub-frame damaged e46

[crovax]

turned the car into the dealership yesterday to diagnoise a wheel speed sensor issue. they put it on the lift and informed me I had rear subframe damage. Apparently, it wasnt too severe, but it was severe enough for them to keep it and fix it. They'l have the car for a week or so.

For information, I drive a 2000 328Ci with 84K miles.

They're fixing it free of charge too btw...:thumbup:

[bernstem]

turned the car into the dealership yesterday to diagnoise a wheel speed sensor issue. they put it on the lift and informed me I had rear subframe damage. Apparently, it wasnt too severe, but it was severe enough for them to keep it and fix it. They'l have the car for a week or so.

For information, I drive a 2000 328Ci with 84K miles.

They're fixing it free of charge too btw...:thumbup:

Was your car under warranty?

[crovax]

crap, i posted this in the wrong forum....sorry guys :(

No, car wasnt under warrenty, they just said its a common problem and its BMW's fault, so they'll fix it.

[sosatyme72]

Wow For Free???

[Wilson]

damn for free, that's crazy.

[crovax]

Yeah, i was totally shocked when they said they'd do it for free. I didnt even ask them, they just said I wasnt the first one to come in with this problem, and that the BMW rep said it would be alright for them to fix it for free... so I was pretty happy about it.

[bernstem]

You should consider the Turner reinforcement kit for the subframe as well as the rear shock towers and sway bar mounting points when you do this repair. You should also consider replacing the subframe and differential mount bushings as well as the shock tower mounts since everything will be off. The additional labor for all that once everything is apart is just about zero.

Good Luck

[HighBoostin330]

You should consider the Turner reinforcement kit for the subframe as well as the rear shock towers and sway bar mounting points when you do this repair. You should also consider replacing the subframe and differential mount bushings as well as the shock tower mounts since everything will be off. The additional labor for all that once everything is apart is just about zero.

Good Luck

Which subframe and differential mount bushings are available? I have been looking around for them.

[Mizar]

turned the car into the dealership yesterday to diagnoise a wheel speed sensor issue. they put it on the lift and informed me I had rear subframe damage. Apparently, it wasnt too severe, but it was severe enough for them to keep it and fix it. They'l have the car for a week or so.

For information, I drive a 2000 328Ci with 84K miles.

They're fixing it free of charge too btw...:thumbup:

Is this a problem specifically of your model and year, or should we all expect to run into that subframe issue at some point? Did the dealer say anything to that effect? Mine is a '01 325it.

Thanks,

Mizar

[bernstem]

Which subframe and differential mount bushings are available? I have been looking around for them.

There are a bunch available. I spoke with turner Motorsports about what to do with my car. Their recommendation is that unless your car is a 90+% track car, you probably want the stock bushings. Most of the upgraded bushings are solid and you probably won't be happy with the ride.

If you do want to upgrade, both Turner and Bimmerworld have aftermarket bushings for sale. Personally, I'm going to replace the bushings with stock.

[bernstem]

Is this a problem specifically of your model and year, or should we all expect to run into that subframe issue at some point? Did the dealer say anything to that effect? Mine is a '01 325it.

Thanks,

Mizar

As near as I can tell (and this seems to be the consensus), the subframe problem is primarily with '99 and 2000 model year cars. Whether this is simply because the newer cars just haven't shown any problems or whether there was a design change (which I have seen rumors of) I don't know.

Even so, there are occassional newer cars with subframe problems, but it seems to be a much smaller proportion.

[als00328ci]

I would strongly recommend that you have them also install the TMS reinforcement plates also since they will be ripping the rear out. It'll save you alot of pain in the future. Trust me. When BMW fixes the problem, they will only fix it to stock so most likely it will happen again.

[als00328ci]

Bern, what gauges do you have on your ride? Do you have an oil pressure gauge? If so where did you get your oil distribution block for it?

TIA.

As near as I can tell (and this seems to be the consensus), the subframe problem is primarily with '99 and 2000 model year cars. Whether this is simply because the newer cars just haven't shown any problems or whether there was a design change (which I have seen rumors of) I don't know.

Even so, there are occassional newer cars with subframe problems, but it seems to be a much smaller proportion.

[bernstem]

Bern, what gauges do you have on your ride? Do you have an oil pressure gauge? If so where did you get your oil distribution block for it?

TIA.

I have the Autometer Nexus gauges (they are electronic). I am running boost, EGT and oil temperature. The EGT is bolted into the exhaust headers. The oil temperature gauge is wired in at the same point as the stock sender so I don't have an oil distribution block. I think the Nexus oil pressure gauge also wires in at the same point as the stock oil pressure sender (but I'm not really sure since it isn't installed). I do know my mechanic said that these were the easiest gauges he has ever installed :dunno: . Beyond that, I would have to ask my mechanic (the car has pretty much been at the body shop since the S/C install has been finished).

[als00328ci]

Thanks bern,

I have been looking for an ODB for my oil pressure gauge for a while now. Maybe i should have just gotten the Nexus ones too. They look pretty sweet. Why is the car at the body shop?

I have the Autometer Nexus gauges (they are electronic). I am running boost, EGT and oil temperature. The EGT is bolted into the exhaust headers. The oil temperature gauge is wired in at the same point as the stock sender so I don't have an oil distribution block. I think the Nexus oil pressure gauge also wires in at the same point as the stock oil pressure sender (but I'm not really sure since it isn't installed). I do know my mechanic said that these were the easiest gauges he has ever installed :dunno: . Beyond that, I would have to ask my mechanic (the car has pretty much been at the body shop since the S/C install has been finished).

[bernstem]

Thanks bern,

I have been looking for an ODB for my oil pressure gauge for a while now. Maybe i should have just gotten the Nexus ones too. They look pretty sweet. Why is the car at the body shop?

Subframe :bawling: . But on the upside, it is a great opportunity to get a ground control suspension. :clap:

The Nexus gauges are very sweet, but expensive. Personally, I think they are worth the money. The opening and closing sequences are pretty amazing.

[als00328ci]

The startup and the shutdown sequence is why i wanted those gauges too. As for the subframe damage, i just had mine fixed a while back. The SC definitely does not help with that. I would recommend having the body shop install the TMS reinforcment plates while they are fixing it. Also if you can, get them to check your traling arm bushings and subframe bushings, it might be a good idea to have them changed since the rear subframe will be out. I had to change my trailing arm bushings and i also added the bushing limiter plates and sway bar reinforcments. I figure since the whole subframe will be out, i would reinforce what ever i could. You should probably do the same, it will save you the headache later on.

[bernstem]

That is exactly what I am doing. TMS subframe, swaybar mounts and shock tower reinforcement. I'm getting adjustable rear control arms, the bushing limiter kit from TMS and having the subframe and differential mount bushings replace with stock. Oh yeah, and a ground control coilover suspension :clap: .

Check here (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=320033) and here (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308062) for what I have gone through and done so far.

[als00328ci]

Wow, you pretty much have the setup that i would like to eventually have. I was thinking about getting set of supersprint headers too. How do you like them? I'm glad to hear that you are finally almost done even with the little setbacks. :D

That is exactly what I am doing. TMS subframe, swaybar mounts and shock tower reinforcement. I'm getting adjustable rear control arms, the bushing limiter kit from TMS and having the subframe and differential mount bushings replace with stock. Oh yeah, and a ground control coilover suspension :clap: .

Check here (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=320033) and here (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308062) for what I have gone through and done so far.

[bernstem]

Wow, you pretty much have the setup that i would like to eventually have. I was thinking about getting set of supersprint headers too. How do you like them? I'm glad to hear that you are finally almost done even with the little setbacks. :D

The headers are awesome. The exhaust is loud, though. Not really raspy, just loud. I still have a few things to work out. I'm looking into a clutch (might put in a new clutch Exedy is developing for e46s) and eventually want to do a 6spd swap and 3.46 LSD.

[als00328ci]

Did you have to do anything to send a bogus signal back to the ECU since you have to cats? I have the UUC lightweight flywheel and E34 M5 clutch setup and with the SC it works amazing, pedal feel is not to aggressive. Not an on/off switch like some that i've heard about.

The headers are awesome. The exhaust is loud, though. Not really raspy, just loud. I still have a few things to work out. I'm looking into a clutch (might put in a new clutch Exedy is developing for e46s) and eventually want to do a 6spd swap and 3.46 LSD.

[bernstem]

Did you have to do anything to send a bogus signal back to the ECU since you have to cats? I have the UUC lightweight flywheel and E34 M5 clutch setup and with the SC it works amazing, pedal feel is not to aggressive. Not an on/off switch like some that i've heard about.

I have the supersprint cats (and supersprint race muffler) so I shouldn't have an O2 sensor problem. I'll have to wait a couple hundred miles to see for sure. I actually had the 330 dual pipe system retrofitted so no more crappy Y pipe.

As for clutch, I was looking at the UUC E34 clutch and flywheel. I might have a very good deal on the Exedy clutch, however, so I'm willing to try that out.

[als00328ci]

Ohhh i though you went catless. Nice. Are the cats still part of the headers? I don't think i've ever seen someone retrofit a 330 setup on a 323/328. Sounds like a nice idea. Let me know how the Exedy clutch turns out.

I have the supersprint cats (and supersprint race muffler) so I shouldn't have an O2 sensor problem. I'll have to wait a couple hundred miles to see for sure. I actually had the 330 dual pipe system retrofitted so no more crappy Y pipe.

As for clutch, I was looking at the UUC E34 clutch and flywheel. I might have a very good deal on the Exedy clutch, however, so I'm willing to try that out.

[bernstem]

Ohhh i though you went catless. Nice. Are the cats still part of the headers? I don't think i've ever seen someone retrofit a 330 setup on a 323/328. Sounds like a nice idea. Let me know how the Exedy clutch turns out.

The cats are about where the first resonator sits in the stock system. I'll let you know how the clutch works out if I get it put in.

[als00328ci]

So I guess you had to get a longer cable for the O2 sensors so they would reach the new location for the pre and post cat sensors.


The cats are about where the first resonator sits in the stock system. I'll let you know how the clutch works out if I get it put in.

[HighBoostin330]

So I guess you had to get a longer cable for the O2 sensors so they would reach the new location for the pre and post cat sensors.

I have the SS cats and the OEM wires where long enough.

[bernstem]

I had to extend the O2 wires - there was no way my stock O2 sensors were going to reach.

[HighBoostin330]

I had to extend the O2 wires - there was no way my stock O2 sensors were going to reach.

:hmm: I guess Zolti did some voodoo magic on my car. :rofl:

[als00328ci]

Alright so now i have some mixed comments. I guess I will have to see if they make it when i eventually get mine. :thanks:

Good luck with the clutch.

[bernstem]

:hmm: I guess Zolti did some voodoo magic on my car. :rofl:

Well, Zolti is the man...:thumbup:

[ajlman]

Does anyone know where on the subframe the cracks are prone to develop?

[als00328ci]

It's actually not on the subframe, it's where the subframe attatches to the unibody. The first place to look is on the driver's side close to the muffler. There are four mount points, the above mentioned one is the first to go.

Does anyone know where on the subframe the cracks are prone to develop?

[ajlman]

Thanks! I'll check my 323, no symptoms as others have described. Although there is a low frequency resonance that shows up between 60-70 MPH.

It's actually not on the subframe, it's where the subframe attatches to the unibody. The first place to look is on the driver's side close to the muffler. There are four mount points, the above mentioned one is the first to go.

[bernstem]

Thanks! I'll check my 323, no symptoms as others have described. Although there is a low frequency resonance that shows up between 60-70 MPH.

That could be a lot of things (alignment, control arms and wheel bearings come to mind quickly). I would guess it probably isn't the subframe, but until you look you don't know. The most common location of tearing is at the rear driver's mounting point. You will need to get the car on a lift, and look behind the muffler when looking from the bottom.

For historical reference, On e36s I think it was the passenger front mounting point, but they reinforced the front mounting points on the e46. The problem has been around for quite a while.

[als00328ci]

Here's a picture of where mine torn from. Look right above the swaybar.

Thanks! I'll check my 323, no symptoms as others have described. Although there is a low frequency resonance that shows up between 60-70 MPH.

[crovax]

here's some pictures of mine

161073

161074

161075

161076

[bernstem]

Here's a picture of where mine torn from. Look right above the swaybar.

That is much worse than mine.

http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/1971/subframe13si.jpg


http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/5256/subframe25bh.jpg


The shop I have gone to does not feel that welding the floorpan is a good fix. They are replacing the whole piece on my car and then will be welding in the Turner reinforcement kit. They have promised me pictures of the process. I'll post them as I get them.

[ajlman]

Thanks for all the pics for reference everyone! This resonance is very low
in frequency somewhere around 60-80Hz and clearly from the rear of the car.
I haven't had the alignment checked however it's stright as an areo w/ no vibrations or other signs of problems.


That could be a lot of things (alignment, control arms and wheel bearings come to mind quickly). I would guess it probably isn't the subframe, but until you look you don't know. The most common location of tearing is at the rear driver's mounting point. You will need to get the car on a lift, and look behind the muffler when looking from the bottom.

For historical reference, On e36s I think it was the passenger front mounting point, but they reinforced the front mounting points on the e46. The problem has been around for quite a while.

[bernstem]

Thanks for all the pics for reference everyone! This resonance is very low
in frequency somewhere around 60-80Hz and clearly from the rear of the car.
I haven't had the alignment checked however it's stright as an areo w/ no vibrations or other signs of problems.

Just because a car tracks straight doesn't rule out an alignment problem, particularly on the rear wheels.

[als00328ci]

I would of loved to gotten the whole floorpan changed but the dealership was ready to do that and it would of cost something like $4000 CAD plus the TMS plates and welding. A little bit more than I was able to spend. By that point I would just scrap the car. Why should I have to pay 4-5 G's for something that BMW should have fixed from the beginning.

That is much worse than mine.

http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/1971/subframe13si.jpg


http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/5256/subframe25bh.jpg


The shop I have gone to does not feel that welding the floorpan is a good fix. They are replacing the whole piece on my car and then will be welding in the Turner reinforcement kit. They have promised me pictures of the process. I'll post them as I get them.

[ACS3 A.R.T]

when that happened to me, they told me it was because I drove my car too hard and that I had 18inch wheels on my 328ci....they refused to fix it and said if I wanted them to fix it it was be 15k! I just said no thanks and went somewhere else.