Technik: A technical question for you

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

I just had time to read Technik's answers regarding TSI. It is a piggyback, WITH STAND ALONE FEATURES. TSI can take, full control, of INJECTORS, if wanted.

Technik, all of the seriously modded cars have engine management systems and map sensors.

Especially, on SC and Turboed engines, fuel maps and ignition maps, tuned according to BOOST PRESSURE, but NOT according to TPS (throttle position) yield more accurate and better results.

One EXAMPLE: REV SOFTLY IN SECOND GEAR TO 5800 RPM AND HOLT IT THERE. THEN SUDDENLY FLOOR THE THROTTLE, YOU WONT HAVE FULL BOOST AS THE LOAD IS SMALL AND AS THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TIME TO MAKE THE PEAK BOOST AS YOU COULD MAKE IF YOU STARTED REVVING FROM A LOWER ENGINE SPEED.

THIS MEANS AT SECOND GEAR WHEN YOU WOT AT 5800 RPM YOU WONT HAVE ENOUGH AIR, AS YOU HAD, AND THIS MAKES AIR FUEL RATIOS RICH. THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH AIR FLOW METER EQUIPPED KITS, AND THIS PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST ON OUR SYSTEMS WHERE WE EMPLOY A MAP SENSOR. WHEN OUR MAP SENSOR READS THE PRESSURE, WE ARE ALL THE TIME MEASURING THE REAL AMOUNT OF AIR ENTERING THE ENGINE.

MERT

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

One more point,

Technik, why dont you add an engine management to your systems such as the one we offer?

Instead of talking about TSI without having experience with it, you can use one and then make a comment.

I know including TSI will shave off your profit :dunno:

But we include TSI in all of our kits, supercharger and turbocharger.

[samir@technik]

I just had time to read Technik's answers regarding TSI. It is a piggyback, WITH STAND ALONE FEATURES. TSI can take, full control, of INJECTORS, if wanted.

You kept stating "TSI" was a standalone. So now you're saying it's a piggyback? Ok, that's the point I was trying to make. I guess we're in agreement now.

Technik, all of the seriously modded cars have engine management systems and map sensors.

Who's talking about "seriously" modded cars? I'm talking about production kits for streetcars, not one-off HIGH BOOST kits.

Especially, on SC and Turboed engines, fuel maps and ignition maps, tuned according to BOOST PRESSURE, but NOT according to TPS (throttle position) yield more accurate and better results.

What do you think we do? We tune the maps <i>directly</i> in the DME "according to boost pressure". We don't need a piggyback.

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

Even a system with low boost pressures, 7 psi, needs a map sensor.

Just go back to my example and see what I meant. With your programming method, you cant map according to boost, you take air flow meter voltage readings.

[samir@technik]

One more point,

Technik, why dont you add an engine management to your systems such as the one we offer?

:hmm: Uhh, why would I? We tune the DME directly. We don't need a 1/2-assed piggyback system that won't work on a US car anyways.

I should be asking you: Mert, why don't you program the factory ECU instead of using piggyback devices? :shhh:

Instead of talking about TSI without having experience with it, you can use one and then make a comment.

Because that would be going <i>backwards</i>. Like I already said, we don't need such devices because we program the factory computer. What's so hard to understand about this? :dunno:

I know including TSI will shave off your profit :dunno:

:read: ^above

But we include TSI in all of our kits, supercharger and turbocharger.

Good for you :thumbup: Now try to get it to work on a US-spec car.

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

There is no problem with US Spec BMWs. Don't worry.

Why we dont program DME? As I said before, in my example, it clearly shows that map sensor based software, the one as we offer, has adventages. Whereas your system, without a map sensor, cant sense the pressure.

ANswer this questions please. GO over my example.

If you dont understand we can elaborate on it. THIS EXAMPLE IS VERY VERY ESSENTIAL.

MAP SENSOR BASED SOFTWARE ADDS QUALITY, MORE POWER AND MORE SENSITIVE MAPPING.

[samir@technik]

Even a system with low boost pressures, 7 psi, needs a map sensor.

Gee, I guess all of our customers running "tuned" software and perfect AFRs are hallucinating. :rolleyes:

Just go back to my example and see what I meant. With your programming method, you cant map according to boost, you take air flow meter voltage readings.

How do you think an ECU "sees" airflow? Whether MAP or MAF, it's just a "signal" that the ECU computes to determine the <i>volume</i> of air flowing into the engine. Our kits work just fine based on this method, have proper AFRs and make great power, what about yours?

You should take a trip to Germany and tell all the engineers at Porsche and Audi that they're doing it wrong.

[samir@technik]

There is no problem with US Spec BMWs. Don't worry.

Why we dont program DME? As I said before, in my example, it clearly shows that map sensor based software, the one as we offer, has adventages. Whereas your system, without a map sensor, cant sense the pressure.

ANswer this questions please. GO over my example.

If you dont understand we can elaborate on it. THIS EXAMPLE IS VERY VERY ESSENTIAL.

MAP SENSOR BASED SOFTWARE ADDS QUALITY, MORE POWER AND MORE SENSITIVE MAPPING.

Like I said Mert, go to Porsche and Audi, knock on their engineering dept's door and explain to them that they're all doing it wrong by using MAF sensors for their petrol turbo systems. They should all switch to TSI and have you tune it for them! :idea:

[omes]

:popcorn: Chatting amoungst the FI Heavy-weights.:)

[russ330]

^Yeah this is like a free class. I'm taking notes. :)

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

Technik,

All Supras, Skylines use map sensors. Why? Knock on their door.

[NickG]

I have to side with Samir (Technik) in this case. IMO, a piggyback (like the TSI) is always a 'bandaid' solution for tuning. Tuning the factory ECU like Technik (and we) do is the proper solution.

And for the record, a mass air flow equipped system CAN see boost. What people have to realize is that boost = airflow. As long as the MAF isn't maxxed out, then the increased boost is detected by the increase in airflow. A properly tuned DME will see that increased airflow and apply the appropriate fuel and spark.

[OCswedishM3]

I have to side with Samir (Technik) in this case. IMO, a piggyback (like the TSI) is always a 'bandaid' solution for tuning. Tuning the factory ECU like Technik (and we) do is the proper solution.

And for the record, a mass air flow equipped system CAN see boost. What people have to realize is that boost = airflow. As long as the MAF isn't maxxed out, then the increased boost is detected by the increase in airflow. A properly tuned DME will see that increased airflow and apply the appropriate fuel and spark.

I dunno...i know AA stage III gets rid of the MAF. I think the best idea might be to have a fully tuned stand alone system. I talked to Simon at evosport and they have a new option. Just dont know whats the best route to go and i dont want to be the test subject.

[samir@technik]

Technik,

All Supras, Skylines use map sensors. Why? Knock on their door.

All? I don't think so. People that switch out to MAP systems do so because they're running more boost than the factory MAF is capable of supporting. It has nothing to do with one being superior to the other.

What did they come with from the factory? How about the Porsche Turbo or any other OE turbo'd car? What are they running? You're going to tell me that billion dollar companies with 100s of engineers have got it all wrong? That you know <i>more</i> than they do? I think you're confused.

If you're building a one-off high-boost car, then I will agree a MAP-based system is a better option than rescaling the MAF sensor to compensate, but we're talking about boost in excess of 15-20psi. For regular production kits, there is no substitute for direct programming of the DME. Anything else is a bandaid and will never give you the reliability of a factory tuned ECU (especially on a BMW).

[BoostedBoogie]

lol technik seriously owned da-motorsport here. i have to side w/ samir as well, i used to be a boost junkie and everything he said is correct.

if you have the capabilities to tune directly yourself, why waste your time/money w/ offering a piggyback or standalone replacement when there is no need to? :lmao:

da, where are all of the videos of your turbo kits?

[RichP]

A MAF and MAP sensor do the same thing Mert, measure an aspect of incoming air to derive the quanity of air entering the engine.

Ideal Gas Law - Google iT!

http://www.chemtutor.com/gases.htm

[OCswedishM3]

lol technik seriously owned da-motorsport here. i have to side w/ samir as well, i used to be a boost junkie and everything he said is correct.

if you have the capabilities to tune directly yourself, why waste your time/money w/ offering a piggyback or standalone replacement when there is no need to? :lmao:

da, where are all of the videos of your turbo kits?

I dont think Samir is replying to "owned" DA motorsports. They both have 2 different ways of doing things and have different opinons. Even though Samir is very knowlegdeable, that is why i wouldnt mind if he took a look at my car. I just wish AA could be here on the west coast.

[GarrettF]

A MAF and MAP sensor do the same thing Mert, measure an aspect of incoming air to derive the quanity of air entering the engine.

Ideal Gas Law - Google iT!

http://www.chemtutor.com/gases.htm :bow: as usual to richp

[sheefo2k]

lol technik seriously owned da-motorsport here. i have to side w/ samir as well, i used to be a boost junkie and everything he said is correct.

if you have the capabilities to tune directly yourself, why waste your time/money w/ offering a piggyback or standalone replacement when there is no need to? :lmao:

da, where are all of the videos of your turbo kits?
really not needed in this smart intellectual chat/argument.

You guys keep on talking, i m learning a lot from this talk

[Alan L.]

Samir :clap:

RichP :lmao:

[GarrettF]

Samir :clap:

RichP :lmao:

Da :burnout:

[sheefo2k]

I have nothing against DA, nor I will.
I always liked them ever sicne day one, I watched the progress thread about the turbo kit day by day.

I think it was uncalled for a great sponsor to call out another great sponsor just like that or more of CHILDESH. Obviously the reason DA called out technik is for the soul purpose of making them look bad or trying to prove a false point on them.

Or else DA would have used the PM system that the forum provides.

[sjo328ci]

Samir,
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.

[DA-MOTORSPORT]

We started this thread because Samir had an argument in http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294039

And we wanted to responf to Samir.

Now, noone, including Samir, understood the logic behind map sensor based tuning. Go and read the first post of this thread. I have explained the boost build up issue depending on load and gear. Map sensor can detect this difference. @ 6000 rpm I do WOT, and the system generates 5 psi till 6400 rpm, then @ 4000 rpm I do WOT, the same system makes 9 psi. With a map sensor based software tuning is more accurate and more precise.

[nite-stalker]

THIS MEANS AT SECOND GEAR WHEN YOU WOT AT 5800 RPM YOU WONT HAVE ENOUGH AIR, AS YOU HAD, AND THIS MAKES AIR FUEL RATIOS RICH.

Please explain in detail? I would like to understand your reasoning behind this. When you WOT, all the air that enters the system is measured either by the MAP or MAF, where does the "not enough air" comes into equation?


THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH AIR FLOW METER EQUIPPED KITS, AND THIS PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST ON OUR SYSTEMS WHERE WE EMPLOY A MAP SENSOR. WHEN OUR MAP SENSOR READS THE PRESSURE, WE ARE ALL THE TIME MEASURING THE REAL AMOUNT OF AIR ENTERING THE ENGINE.


Actually the MAF is more accurate at measuring "all" the air entering the system. Does the TSI system have an air intake temp sensor? Without the mention of that the MAP system is fairly inaccurate at measuring the exact amount of air coming into the engine. A certain volume of air can have more or less mass at a given pressure depending on the temperature. The hot air wire MAF measurings all of this in a single pass.

Some tuned cars have MAF system working when off boost and switch over to MAP measuring under boost. I tend to agree with 7psi, the MAF will be better at measuring the minute changes in total air for precise tuning.
Especially when premium unleaded is about $2.50/gal these days. We are driving street monsters here, not race gas guzzling monsters, every ounce of gas that is efficiently used is good.

I also support tuning the original ECU for anything street. Its just difficult to make a piggyback interact with the stock ECU unless you know the entire code on the stock ECU and what it does when any single input varies. Not that piggybacks are not good, they just add to the complexity of the system.

MAP systems was also employed in OEM applications for cost saving purposes. A MAP + IAT sensor is cheaper than a MAF sensor.

Both systems have their advantages, OEMs choose one over the other. If possible, I would want both in the car.

[NickG]

Now, noone, including Samir, understood the logic behind map sensor based tuning. Go and read the first post of this thread. I have explained the boost build up issue depending on load and gear. Map sensor can detect this difference. @ 6000 rpm I do WOT, and the system generates 5 psi till 6400 rpm, then @ 4000 rpm I do WOT, the same system makes 9 psi. With a map sensor based software tuning is more accurate and more precise.

Mert, your quote above clearly indicates that you really don't understand how a mass air flow system works, or how accurate it can really be. You shouldn't criticize a system that you don't understand.

Let me ask you this.......Let's say you're pushing 10psi of boost. Does the engine require the same amount of fuel if the air temps were 50degrees or if they were 200degrees? What happens to spark timing if the air temperature changes?

Do you think air temperature affects the density of the air, and thus, the overall fuel and spark requirement?

Does the MAP system you use have a way of detecting minute changes in air density and adjusting the tune to compensate for it? If so, how?

FYI, properly mass air systems CAN adjust and compensate for all of the conditions above. :thumbup:

[NickG]

One EXAMPLE: REV SOFTLY IN SECOND GEAR TO 5800 RPM AND HOLT IT THERE. THEN SUDDENLY FLOOR THE THROTTLE, YOU WONT HAVE FULL BOOST AS THE LOAD IS SMALL AND AS THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TIME TO MAKE THE PEAK BOOST AS YOU COULD MAKE IF YOU STARTED REVVING FROM A LOWER ENGINE SPEED.

THIS MEANS AT SECOND GEAR WHEN YOU WOT AT 5800 RPM YOU WONT HAVE ENOUGH AIR, AS YOU HAD, AND THIS MAKES AIR FUEL RATIOS RICH. THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH AIR FLOW METER EQUIPPED KITS,

MERT

Mert, that is false. That is NOT a problem at all with mass air equipped systems.

When the car is in neutral and revving to 5800rpm, there is very little air flowing through the engine. The mass air meter SEES that exact amount of airflow, and injects the proper amount of fuel. Then when you're in 2nd gear and floor the gas at 5800rpm, the airflow through the engine is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. This increased airflow is measured by the meter and, again, injects the proper amount of fuel.

And magically, the MAF system is able to compensate for the conditions you say it can't :clap:

[redronin]

and the award of self ownage goes to...

[trybaljedi]

Especially, on SC and Turboed engines, fuel maps and ignition maps, tuned according to BOOST PRESSURE



WHEN OUR MAP SENSOR READS THE PRESSURE, WE ARE ALL THE TIME MEASURING THE REAL AMOUNT OF AIR ENTERING THE ENGINE.




No time to read the whole thread, but is this shitt for real? LOL.

[Mteknic330ci]

:popcorn:

[silver4dracs]

Not to fuel the fire but a MAF equipped system has the capability to read engine load. This is how the system compensates for the difference in air consumed between no gear revving (no load) and in gear revving (under load).