Finally....VF vs ESS

[Kwanghyun Chi]

Hi, guys.....I think I could finally supercharge my 325xi.

Now I am considering VF and ESS. However, I've come to favor VF, because it's emission legal, more power out of auto 4WD, resonable price, and made from California.

As for ESS, one thing I like is that they offer automatic tuning chip with the supercharger kit. It's not intercooled, though. But..7psi, while VF is 6psi.

Anyway, 6psi Vortech equipped VF supercharger kit is 10HP stronger than 7psi ESS supercharger kit. Hm..doesn't make sense, but if it's true, I am sure that VF kit is awesome. Alasome~~~~~~

Which one do you think will give more power, theoretically? Anyway, in real word based on data, VF kit is stronger for my car type. Does anyone have any idea?

Plus, how is 290HP, 240lb/ft torque?
I have RE free flow exhaust, and planning for Nitrous gas or header for last hidden card..:shhh:

184HP----->290HP Can I feel the power? Will it pull me tightly? I still have no idea......

But I'd heard ESS kit is awesome, and it really did pull~~:clap:

Finally, my sleepy cruising is gone with the wind~~~~~:hi:

What the hell those ESS automatic chip hide behind? :thumbup:

[Ervin87]

Both kits are very good.

Ess is a very respectable company and has been building these kits for a while.

The one question I am sure we all will agree on is that you will definately feel the Increase in power. :thumbup:

[rwalker]

However, I've come to favor VF, because it's emission legal, more power out of auto 4WD, resonable price, and made from California.



VF Engineering has not yet received a CARB EO for any of their kits.

I've read claims (from others on the board) that VF filed with ARB in October or November of 2005. However, as of 12/28/2005, ARB had had no contact with VF.

From VF's website, emphasis added (http://vf-engineering.com/index.php?v=/information/info_warranty.php):

GENERAL

Business hours are Monday-Friday from 9am to 5pm (PST). VF-Engineering is closed Saturdays, Sundays, and all US public holidays. Street superchargers systems are designed for "stock" vehicles only. Modified vehicles may require additional fuel, ignition, computer tuning, fabrication, and/or technical support which is not included. If you do not use the engine management software provided with your VF supercharger system or modify our product, technical support cannot be provided and you may damage your engine. All current street supercharging systems are not CARB approved, unless otherwise noted.

-Rob

[Kwanghyun Chi]

What CARB stands for?
It's not emission legal yet? Hm..I'd heard this kit is the only emission legal kit on the market now. I just read from other threads....

I am in NY state, and very conscious of emission issues.

[rwalker]

CARB stands for California Air Resources Board.

Emissions testing in California includes a visual inspection of the engine, etc. to guard against tampering with any emissions equipment.

Normally, a supercharger kit violates these "anti-tampering" rules, but SC vendors can apply to CARB to get an "Executive Order" exempting their kits for the visual inspection. Vendors have to show (in rigorous tests) that their kit does not increase the emissions output of the vehicle. A little sticker with the EO number is placed in a prominent place under the hood next to the kit, and presto! it clears visual.

I don't know what emissions testing is like in NY, looks like all you need to do is pass a sniff and OBDII check:

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/vehsafe.htm

-Rob

[MPossible]

I know you said VF vs. ESS but have you overlooked Technik? Samir does some AMAZING work. However, both your choices are good and the supplemental drivetrain warranty offered by ESS is second to know.

[xS3x]

between the two i would go with the new ESS kit or the ASA kit from technik engineering. One thing most people overlook is the power under the curve. Most crowds only look at peak hp/tq but don't look at how much power is attained throughout the RPM. Vortech S/C is known for only making power on the top-end.

[HighBoostin330]

between the two i would go with the new ESS kit or the ASA kit from technik engineering. One thing most people overlook is the power under the curve. Most crowds only look at peak hp/tq but don't look at how much power is attained throughout the RPM. Vortech S/C is known for only making power on the top-end.

:werd: the Vortech S/C is known for making power at high boost. So when we are approaching our redline, the Vortech S/C starts to hit its sweet spot - then you have to shift. ASA design their compressors to allows for boost to be made sooner and quicker. I agree with xs3x. If your options are limited to ESS and VF. Pick the ESS kit. If you are concerned about the CARB certification, consider the Technik kits in your options. :)

[Kwanghyun Chi]

Hm.. most of guys favor ASA instead of Vortech. Yup~I'd heard about the hidden reality under the curve. So, assuming two 325's equipped with Vortech and ASA have perfectly controlled other variables rather than the sort of supercharger unit, if they race, ASA charged 325 will go ahead at first, but vortech charged 325 will catch up soon? I think they must have done something on gear shifting modulation to make the best out of each supercharger unit. Anyway, it sounds like for auto, ASA is better, while for manual, it's a totally different story. I mean, as auto starts slowly, by utilizing ASA unit, it will become much more faster, won't it?

[BMWintoxication]

i thought ESS = ASA...

[thekubiaks]

ESS has a distributor in Southern California. I am very happy with the TX2. I would highly recommend the TX2 over the Vortech S/C. The TX2 is much more refined and the intercooler is an absolute MUST HAVE for S/C'd cars. I don't know first hand about Technik but guys on this forum seem to love Samir so take a look at Technik. Whichever you decide, GET AN INTERCOOLER. :str8pimpi

[xS3x]

Hm.. most of guys favor ASA instead of Vortech. Yup~I'd heard about the hidden reality under the curve. So, assuming two 325's equipped with Vortech and ASA have perfectly controlled other variables rather than the sort of supercharger unit, if they race, ASA charged 325 will go ahead at first, but vortech charged 325 will catch up soon? I think they must have done something on gear shifting modulation to make the best out of each supercharger unit. Anyway, it sounds like for auto, ASA is better, while for manual, it's a totally different story. I mean, as auto starts slowly, by utilizing ASA unit, it will become much more faster, won't it?
no, they will not catch up..ASA unit makes just as much peak hp as the vortech unit. So we'll slowly walk the vortech :)

[russ330]

i thought ESS = ASA...

Nope. ESS uses ASA compressors for their new kit, but ESS does not equal ASA.

[MPossible]

Nope. ESS uses ASA compressors for their new kit, but ESS does not equal ASA.
:werd: Technik's kits also use ASA blowers but IMHO the software Technik kits offer have a great powerband. The A/F ratios, Peak HP and TQ and "pull" throughout the band just makes it top of the line. ESS and Technik (as well as some other companies) use the ASA blower in their "kit". They then provide they software and all the equipment for install. And I agree about the intercooler comment above. Not only does it looks :drool: but it will keep you running alot more efficient. :thumbup:

[Kwanghyun Chi]

Actually, 330i and 325i seem to have different fate. What you guys are saying is only for 330 not 325. For 2.5L as mine, there's quite a lot limitation. To make matters worse, to find out the right kit for 4WD automatic as mine is almost impossible. There's only one official complete kit for my car. It's VF's kit. It is 6psi and non intercooled, but have the same or more power than 7psi other kits. Aswesome!! Unfortunately, Technik even has no stage I kit for my car type.(Due to 4wd not automatic) That sucks! They offer infinitas sk plus 7psi, which they claim to give 270HP. However, I can't find anything about this type of setting on the website. Actually, infinitas SK plus kit gives only 235HP. (It's cheap though, from infinitas official website) Then, where does that 270HP 7psi infinitas SK plus kit come from? (It also has 6psi version according to Technik) Anyway, at other websites, 6psi or 7psi versions are infinitas SK 1 and 2, which are te***** stage I and stage II repectively. :thumbdwn:

As for ESS kit, there seem to be no kit for 325xi. However, they recommended TX-2 7psi non intercooled supercharger system. Where is it? I can't find anything about the kit on their website. As I can't see, find, hear, I can't 100% rely on those kits. Vf's claim and ESS's claim are contradictory. Vf claims 6psi is the best boost pressure without intercooler, while ESS's kit offer 7psi without intercooler for my car type. I've come to doubt if it will be ok to use 7psi ESS kit without intercooler. (Anyway, I can't make use of intercooler for my xi, and it is due to 4wd not auto)

There's four new issues.

First of all, why intercooler can't be installed on 325xi?
What I heard for this issue are as follows;
1. Structurally limited to be installed
2. Due to the structural limitation, it will not be efficient.

Secondly, what if I adjust VF supercharger kit from 6psi to 7psi accompanied with automatic transmission upgrade? I'd heard I can manipulate boost pressure at any level I want to acheive as long as other certain conditions are met. Then, what about 10psi or more? :rolleyes:

In third, how to upgrade auto transmission and what to do to support much higher torque? There were ferrari's and many supercars equiped with automatic transmission.

Finally, how the hell that 4WD E46 3series different from rear wheel drive E46 3series? Weak and no space for intercooler? Can't even handle the power as 325i? :bawling:

So right now, I decided to buy VF supercharger kit, and research on custimization with this kit. (Probably, it will not be warrantied from that moment)

I need help from those who are familiar with this type of concerns, and I believe it would be very easy question for some people.:dunno:

4444444444444444444444WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

BMW XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

What the heck does it have in drivetrain? A rubber band? Shi~~~~~~Tu!

I wanna have 350HP at least~~~~Actually, just wanna beat those cheap Japan made imported annyoing machines.:lmao:

[Ervin87]

350 HP is alot for a 2.5l automatic XI.

You would have to have the blower, headers, exhaust and maybe even intercooler to reach that much on the 2.5l.

Plus, I don't think the tranny will hold up. Your best bet is to swap trannys if you goal is AT least 350hp.

Good luck.

:thumbup:

[Kwanghyun Chi]

I am about to get the blower. I had free flow cat back exhaust, AFE magnum intake, and shark injector. Now, I will have blower, cat back exhaust.

What if increasing boost pressure by myself? Then, make it support that power? That's it?

How to support that power?
1>How to upgrade auto tranny
2>How to upgrade engine bay

Somewhere between where I have to modify my engine and tranny and modifying only tranny. I estimate that power is 350HP. Then, how to upgrade auto tranny?

Tranny swap? With which one? M3 sedan's? M5 manual?

Hm..I have never heard about tranny swap.
How to do......
The price.....

Rather upgrade auto tranny to support up to 350-400HP!
By the way, auto 330 can handle up to 330HP - 350HP. The same 325 should be!!! But will need more boost pressure...Then have to concern about the safety of engine....less volume but much more additional torque and horsepower..

Anyway, 330 and 325 should have no much difference...

What I'd heard to upgrade auto tranny so far is just to change torque converter. That's it, isn't that?

[Kwanghyun Chi]

Under 6 second~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I wanna buster porche boxter...

Just wanna invite to my blog to show my car~~
By the way, those porche 911 turbo 4WD is one of my dream second~~

http://blog.daum.net/ckh798/?_top_blogtop=go2myblog

[BayerischeMW]

the auto tranny that's in 330's (and 325's) won't hold 330-350 hp over time. it's not healthy for the tranny, and it will slip. about ~320 hp is what S/C tuners say.

[Kwanghyun Chi]

So 325 Hp is the ultimate power for 325 and 330.
There's a way to make from 280HP to 300HP with additional NA tuning. But, to get 325HP, I have no idea how to do. Technically, I think I can acheive that power by adjusting boost pressure, but don't know how. I just heard from auto shop near my area that I can adjust boost pressure.
Then, are there any way to make 320HP from 300HP accurately, something like Calculus? Adjust boost pressure until it dynoed at 320HP, for instance. Keke...have no idea.. 325HP is very ideal number. As long as auto is safe. I'd heard less than 300HP is safe for auto at around 290HP.

However, as ESS kit make more than 320HP for auto, I think you are right.
8psi will make my car reach that power refering from AA's kit. Then, the resolution is to put intercooler.

Unfortunately, there's no intercooler kit for 325xi, but AA's kit. However, I'd heard it should be customized to make it fit according to AA. On the other hand, ESS says intercooler does not fit to 325xi, and if one tries to install it, due to the structural reason, it will be less efficient.

6psi non intercooled VF

7psi non intercooled Technik / ESS

8psi intercooled AA + modification with several pipes for intercooler.(????really want to hear about this one)

However, for 325xi, VF 6psi kit is the most powerful. ESS kit is also strong, but it's 7psi. Hm..with higher boost pressure the same or less power?????

Then, real buttom lined question should be like this;

How can I get the intercooler for my car after VF stage I? There will be no stage II for 325xi according to Jeff at VF engineering. ----->Should be customized...but will it be possible with the least possible investment? Usually, intercooler kit costs more than $1000.

Aren't there any supercharged 325xi or 330xi steptronic users?

[yafool]

The answer for the question of which kit you should get will always be biased. Go with the kit that will offer you the most support and options AFTER its in your car. When you compare a power output range of 20hp between those kits, it will not make too much of a difference in your car. 20hp can be varied in the same car depending on other factors such as ambient temp, fuel, altitude, dyno and many more. In my biased opinion, technik is the way to go since im in LA and they are down the street from me. If you are from riverside, LA isnt too far. ASAed330 comes all the way down from nor cal. Is that extra boost worth it if something happens and your solution is in Florida? Talk to Samir, maybe they would be willing to develop a kit with FMIC for the Xi. They are always up for a challenge.

[russ330]

A few comments:

1.) To raise the boost pressure for a supercharged car, one would have to change the size of the supercharger pulley.

After doing that:

a.) The car would possibly require more fuel, so bigger fuel injectors would be needed.

b.) The cars ECU that had been programmed to see X amount of increased air (boost) would have to be retuned/reprogrammed to see amount that you added by changing the pulley size.

2.) A very plausible reason why some supercharger kits say that there is no intercooler or doesn't fit for you car is because they all use different intercoolers. Just because the shape and the plumbing for an AA kit may fit in your car doesn't mean that an intercooler from Technik would fit.

3.) Yes the drive train for an XI is weaker, the front differential I believe is the weak point.

4.) Not much of a difference between a 325 and a 330? It's an approximately 40 hp difference, you're already starting from a disadvantage with a 2.5L so of course it's going to be difficult to achieve the numbers you wish for.

5.) As far as tranny upgrades go, a company called Level 10 can beef up the transmission, however the few members here that have had the upgrade done have reported lack luster results.

6.) You also have realize that you are going to have more drive train loss than a rear wheel BMW. You would need to produce more crank hp in an all wheel drive car than a rear wheel drive one to achieve the same numbers on a dyno. More moving parts, more weight = more drive train loss.

7.) Any particular attachment to your car? If you really lust for power then a 325XI is a horrible platform. Sell your car for a 328 or 330 and start the mods from there.

[332ic]

My SK+ from my 323ci made around 240whp on the best run. So far so good on the blower, install since 9-05.

[Kwanghyun Chi]

Mr. 332ic~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds great! You're enjoying pretty much..uh?

What's the performance like? I mean, can you describe how it feels?
And I am very curious about 0-60mph performance, 1/4mile, 4th gear and 5th gear, and max speed. In which gear, can you feel the change the most?

Also, want to compare NA tuning with supercharger....
Shark injector, intake, exhaust make me already feel great!! However, I feel like some hidden power is released instead of much more combustion~~~
I hope supercharger could explode my engine, so it became so difficult to handle...something scary expected~~ KEKEKEKEKEKEKE
Chuperchager churbochager~~Woooooooooooo~~~~~~~~

Hey, are there any guys who know where the car show is help up? I am also looking for a track that is for any person..Just want to do hard cornering~~

[BMWtech]

VF makes a great product I would highly recommend you check out there stuff in person if youd like. Call up Nik and check out there shop they do amazing work.....highly recommend.

[m3cabrio]

A few comments:

1.) To raise the boost pressure for a supercharged car, one would have to change the size of the supercharger pulley.

After doing that:

a.) The car would possibly require more fuel, so bigger fuel injectors would be needed.

b.) The cars ECU that had been programmed to see X amount of increased air (boost) would have to be retuned/reprogrammed to see amount that you added by changing the pulley size.

2.) A very plausible reason why some supercharger kits say that there is no intercooler or doesn't fit for you car is because they all use different intercoolers. Just because the shape and the plumbing for an AA kit may fit in your car doesn't mean that an intercooler from Technik would fit.

3.) Yes the drive train for an XI is weaker, the front differential I believe is the weak point.

4.) Not much of a difference between a 325 and a 330? It's an approximately 40 hp difference, you're already starting from a disadvantage with a 2.5L so of course it's going to be difficult to achieve the numbers you wish for.

5.) As far as tranny upgrades go, a company called Level 10 can beef up the transmission, however the few members here that have had the upgrade done have reported lack luster results.

6.) You also have realize that you are going to have more drive train loss than a rear wheel BMW. You would need to produce more crank hp in an all wheel drive car than a rear wheel drive one to achieve the same numbers on a dyno. More moving parts, more weight = more drive train loss.

7.) Any particular attachment to your car? If you really lust for power then a 325XI is a horrible platform. Sell your car for a 328 or 330 and start the mods from there.
:thumbup:

[HighBoostin330]

The answer for the question of which kit you should get will always be biased. Go with the kit that will offer you the most support and options AFTER its in your car. When you compare a power output range of 20hp between those kits, it will not make too much of a difference in your car. 20hp can be varied in the same car depending on other factors such as ambient temp, fuel, altitude, dyno and many more. In my biased opinion, technik is the way to go since im in LA and they are down the street from me. If you are from riverside, LA isnt too far. ASAed330 comes all the way down from nor cal. Is that extra boost worth it if something happens and your solution is in Florida? Talk to Samir, maybe they would be willing to develop a kit with FMIC for the Xi. They are always up for a challenge.

Yes I come all the way from the Bay Area. Technik is that good to justify a 450mile drive. Technik is always up for a challenge. Just like the one I gave them with my 6speed tranny swap. :)

[Kwanghyun Chi]

Tranny swap...I'd heard it's impossible. I mean physically it does fit. But, there's a problem related with ECU, and other controlling system. Anyway, I believed the tranny swap is the most easiest and common tuning. Hm..
What the..... Never had I think it would be difficult, but never considered to do it instead. Sounds like it's very expensive...Wow~ surprising..

[boostedbimmer]

Kwangchyn,

All these kits are good. I have chosen the VF kit as I have been using Vortech superchargers for over 7 years on all my other cars and have never had an issue. Most of these people on these forums are kids that are just repeating quotes from someone who came accross knowledgeable. The Technics kit is great and does make more power at lower RPM's but my car never runs at low RPM's. I run my car hard and the VF kit is designed for the true enthusiast. Let me ask you this when accelerating hard when is your car under 5000rpm????? That's right in first gear. When that extra boost isn't needed at all. So to all those guys that are talking about VF Vortech blower being a disadvantage. It's not a disadvantage but smart engineering. Of course you wouldn't know this unless you actually drive the car. Only looking at the a dyno chart would give you all the info. You use a dyno chart for a guideline. Now having said that for the every day driver yes the other kits might have more useable power for tooting aroung the city or racing from 30mph in 3rd gear. But to the other guys regurgitating what they been told by other manufacturers.........please think before you speak. Remember alot of the people on this board don't even have a blower or have only have one supercharged car before.

Like I said before I've really had a chance to use the V2 and V5 SQ series blowers from Vortech in Mustangs 5.0, Integra GSR, VW Golf, 240SX custome kit and finally MX-6 after i had Twin-turbo'ed it. Removed the TT and put a vortech kit. So needless to say I know the Vortech blowers inside and out. I would rather try to influence someone who's ready to buy instead of someone who has a blower and is only concerned about trash talking everybody's elses kits. I don't think I've ever posted this on a forum. But I have sent similar msg to forum users directly. Let everyone know the TRUTH.

NOTICE: I never trash the other kits they are all good and produce great power. But I wanted a kit that would give all my power in the higher RPM's.


I'm not sure what you say about the fact that there is structural limitations to adding an intercooler in the future. Maybe , maybe not I've never heard that mind you I've never asked or discussed that subject. On that note who know VF might come out with a kit. Everyone said it wasn't possible for a manufacturer to have a kit on a BMW without an intercooler and HAVE IT RELIABLE? VF does it and makes the same power and in some cases more with less boost ...........................hmmmm how does this happen??? Maybe they just got lucky? yeah right!!!! They did it because of the 2 years of testing on this set-up. Ask anybody who has a Porsche or VW which supercharger company they would go which and 9 times out of 10 they will say VF.

Hope this gives you a better understanding of what you are getting into. If you want private message me.

Out.:clap:

[boostedbimmer]

Hey

[HighBoostin330]

Tranny swap...I'd heard it's impossible. I mean physically it does fit. But, there's a problem related with ECU, and other controlling system. Anyway, I believed the tranny swap is the most easiest and common tuning. Hm..
What the..... Never had I think it would be difficult, but never considered to do it instead. Sounds like it's very expensive...Wow~ surprising..

Works great on my car. Only missing tilt down function. Best mod besides the supercharger, the step tranny sucks up so much power. :( I guess Technik did the impossible with my car. :rofl:

[russ330]

I run my car hard and the VF kit is designed for the true enthusiast.

:wtf: :confused: And all the other supercharger kits out there are made for semi-enthusiasts? :hmm:

[boostedbimmer]

Do you even have a S/C on your car?

I apologize about that comment. I am a very unbias person by nature and your right that was the irish coming out in me. Apologizes to everyone

[MarvelPhx]

This post has nothing to do really with ESS or VF as companies, but more the actual compressors they use... and by all means I could be way off, but the numbers do add up correctly. Let me know if I am wrong.

The Vortech is a bulletproof compressor. Vortech enjoys a very successful and well-earned reputation in boosting engines for a long time. Generally, the Vortechs are found on Detroit muscle, big and small, but they have been used on countless BMW applications where someone can find space such as VF Engineering, ESS, RMS, Eurobahn, etc.

The ASA compressor family is also very reliable, but fairly new. Built into a smaller package than the Vortech, it uses a patented planetary gearset to drive a KKK turbo impeller to make boost. ASAs are very well made and are used by Infinitas, Technik, Alpina, ESS, etc.

If you examine the compressor maps, for example, the Vortech V2SQ and ASA TM-12, you will find out something very interesting in regards to a typical 3.0L engine like ours:

The Vortech at 6psi (1.4PR) just tickles the upper end of the highest effeciency island. However, the room for expansion (higher boost upgrades) on the V2SQ is limited. As you add boost, it veers closer and closer to the surge line. In this sense, it is almost too big for the cfm airflow our 3.0L engine running a 6500-6800rpm redline maxes at.

Compare the ASA TM-12 and you will see the max airflow at even 8psi is under the highest effeciency island. As you increase boost, it creeps closer and closer to the island, becoming more effecient. At any boost approaching a full bar (2.0PR), it passes the island at about the torque peak of our 3.0L.

I have owned the V2SQ *and* the ASA TM-12 on my '01 and '04 330i, and it is very obvious the difference without comparing the manufacturing company at all. The Vortech felt like it came alive about 4500rpm and got stronger towards redline. Like it was just getting good and the rev limiter kicked in. The ASA comes up at about 2700 and pulls hard until about 5500rpm where it falls off a bit. This matches exactly what the compressor maps predict. Both were great compressors, but the ASA is smaller and more matched to our 3.0L engine with our limited redline.

Now, for example, if you move the Vortech to an S54 M3 engine with its higher displacement and redline, it comes into a much happier place, running straight through the center of the highest island and running much more time in a more effecient manor even up to 11-12psi if you could keep the heat and detonation out.

I did the work on this just to see if the feeling I got driving the two compressors was visible with the compressor's respective flow maps. It was fun and I figured this was a good thread to let people see. Don't mean to hijack if I did.

P.S. I did find something else interesting, which I ask the ASA supercharger companies to answer:

The TM-15 appears to be even more effective on our 3.0L from 6psi up to over a full bar. What was the decision to start with a TM-12 driven by? Since the impeller speeds, size, inlet and outlet sizes, max PR, etc are the same between the 12 and 15, why the TM-12 first? Price, hose space, intercooler space, spool up time, etc?

[russ330]

Do you even have a S/C on your car?

I apologize about that comment. I am a very unbias person by nature and your right that was the irish coming out in me. Apologizes to everyone

Yes I do. Technik kit TM-12 w/ 8 PSI pulley.

Appology accepted.:thumbup:

Edit - Great info Marvel. :)

[thekubiaks]

I have owned the V2SQ *and* the ASA TM-12 on my '01 and '04 330i, and it is very obvious the difference without comparing the manufacturing company at all. The Vortech felt like it came alive about 4500rpm and got stronger towards redline. Like it was just getting good and the rev limiter kicked in. The ASA comes up at about 2700 and pulls hard until about 5500rpm where it falls off a bit. This matches exactly what the compressor maps predict. Both were great compressors, but the ASA is smaller and more matched to our 3.0L engine with our limited redline.



I've had both compressors on my 01' 330i, I agree with the above statement except I didn't feel any "fall-off" above 5500 RPMs, mine pulls pretty hard right up to redline. YMMV :str8pimpi

[MarvelPhx]

When I mean "fall off", I mean it does not pull as hard, it still pulls like mad, just after multiple runs to pay very very close attention, you can feel it pull a little less at higher rpm. Combination of the compressor and the M54 torque curve together I believe. Centrifugals by nature push more boost as a square of their rpm.

[DAI Msports]

This post has nothing to do really with ESS or VF as companies, but more the actual compressors they use... and by all means I could be way off, but the numbers do add up correctly. Let me know if I am wrong.

The Vortech is a bulletproof compressor. Vortech enjoys a very successful and well-earned reputation in boosting engines for a long time. Generally, the Vortechs are found on Detroit muscle, big and small, but they have been used on countless BMW applications where someone can find space such as VF Engineering, ESS, RMS, Eurobahn, etc.

The ASA compressor family is also very reliable, but fairly new. Built into a smaller package than the Vortech, it uses a patented planetary gearset to drive a KKK turbo impeller to make boost. ASAs are very well made and are used by Infinitas, Technik, Alpina, ESS, etc.

If you examine the compressor maps, for example, the Vortech V2SQ and ASA TM-12, you will find out something very interesting in regards to a typical 3.0L engine like ours:

The Vortech at 6psi (1.4PR) just tickles the upper end of the highest effeciency island. However, the room for expansion (higher boost upgrades) on the V2SQ is limited. As you add boost, it veers closer and closer to the surge line. In this sense, it is almost too big for the cfm airflow our 3.0L engine running a 6500-6800rpm redline maxes at.

Compare the ASA TM-12 and you will see the max airflow at even 8psi is under the highest effeciency island. As you increase boost, it creeps closer and closer to the island, becoming more effecient. At any boost approaching a full bar (2.0PR), it passes the island at about the torque peak of our 3.0L.

I have owned the V2SQ *and* the ASA TM-12 on my '01 and '04 330i, and it is very obvious the difference without comparing the manufacturing company at all. The Vortech felt like it came alive about 4500rpm and got stronger towards redline. Like it was just getting good and the rev limiter kicked in. The ASA comes up at about 2700 and pulls hard until about 5500rpm where it falls off a bit. This matches exactly what the compressor maps predict. Both were great compressors, but the ASA is smaller and more matched to our 3.0L engine with our limited redline.

Now, for example, if you move the Vortech to an S54 M3 engine with its higher displacement and redline, it comes into a much happier place, running straight through the center of the highest island and running much more time in a more effecient manor even up to 11-12psi if you could keep the heat and detonation out.

I did the work on this just to see if the feeling I got driving the two compressors was visible with the compressor's respective flow maps. It was fun and I figured this was a good thread to let people see. Don't mean to hijack if I did.

P.S. I did find something else interesting, which I ask the ASA supercharger companies to answer:

The TM-15 appears to be even more effective on our 3.0L from 6psi up to over a full bar. What was the decision to start with a TM-12 driven by? Since the impeller speeds, size, inlet and outlet sizes, max PR, etc are the same between the 12 and 15, why the TM-12 first? Price, hose space, intercooler space, spool up time, etc?

Very good info Marvel .
Good job on the break down .

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

Todd, good read. I think you should post the compressor maps, which I presume you know where to retrieve them. I think the majority of the pple still have a very faint idea of what a compressor map looks like or what it is used for.

[MarvelPhx]

All the info is online, the links:

Vortech V2SQ:
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/support/s-trim_v2_map.html
*This is the S trim, I called Vortech for the SC, but they said it is the same.

ASA TM-12:
http://www.a-s-a.de/htm/english/products/data_sheets/e_dat_tm12.html

ASA TM-15:
http://www.a-s-a.de/htm/english/products/data_sheets/e_dat_tm15.html

[thekubiaks]

All the info is online, the links:

Vortech V2SQ:
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/support/s-trim_v2_map.html
*This is the S trim, I called Vortech for the SC, but they said it is the same.

ASA TM-12:
http://www.a-s-a.de/htm/english/products/data_sheets/e_dat_tm12.html

ASA TM-15:
http://www.a-s-a.de/htm/english/products/data_sheets/e_dat_tm15.html

:jack: :jack: :jack: Just kidding Todd, great stuff, thanks!! :lmao: