are BBK's and/or brake upgrade (pad/rotors) necessary for a s/c car?

[jasyn]

When I do supercharge my car, i'm pretty sure upgrading the brakes would be beneficial to me in the long run, however is it necessary to upgrade all the way to BBK's in order to stop fast enough or will a proper pad & rotor upgrade be good enough? Or are my OEM's from my 330i sports suspension good enough?

[omes]

-it is not neccessary by any stretch, the stock brakes are very capable.

[GHoStRidEr4450]

Unless you plan on going over 120+ MPH everyday and braking hard, I dont think its nessisary. Now, if you just want better brake performance, go for it.

[steelgrey330ci]

true like these guys said they are good for what they can do but if you are going 120mph everyday maybe look at something that will be alittle more aggressive.:thumbup:

[2003330i]

i also was thinking the same thing but they told me that your acceleration is going to be so much better that you are going to need brake. didn't get any professional advice just from peopple into cars

[Elefant]

the benefit to those big brake kits is resistance to fading and overheatng over repeated use. you will not shorten your stopping distance whatsoever. but they look sexy as fuq

[2003330i]

the benefit to those big brake kits is resistance to fading and overheatng over repeated use. you will not shorten your stopping distance whatsoever. but they look sexy as fuq

true

[silver4dracs]

Not to beat this subject to a pulp, but believe me my braking system stops certainly shorter than stock. Hate to break it to ya, it isn't hundreds of feet shorter, but certainly 7-20 ft shorter. This is huge! Think about how the M3 stops faster than a normal 3 series and tell me it's not because of the larger brake surface and clamping power

[MackN666]

Not to beat this subject to a pulp, but believe me my braking system stops certainly shorter than stock. Hate to break it to ya, it isn't hundreds of feet shorter, but certainly 7-20 ft shorter. This is huge! Think about how the M3 stops faster than a normal 3 series and tell me it's not because of the larger brake surface and clamping power

Car and driver tested 2 types of BBK's made by brembo, 1 BBK from Stoptech and a couple from other brands. What was most notable was that the larger, drilled/slotted rotors resisted fade MUCH better than stock and allowed for consistant braking performance. I forget the figures but I believe the best of all the BBK's only managed 12 or so feet shorter and this was from 100mph i believe...not the standard 70-0 or 60-0 measures.

[GarrettF]

buy better tires and you stopping distance will decrease

[Mike Benvo]

The stopping power of a car is directly proportional to the adhesion of the tires to the surface the car is on. If, and only if, the tire adhesion is more than the capability of the breaks themselves (ideally), will a bigger break system benefit in respect to stopping system. Essentially, if the current breaks can lock the wheels at any moment for the surface the tire is on, the brakes are sufficent for the application setting other factors aside. Where the benefit of the BBK comes in (comming from very decent breaks on our BMW's), is brakefade caused by friction in the breaking system, which raises the temperature of the brake fluid to a point in which the brakes are less effective (due to boiling fluid/air in the lines). The bigger rotors and the features that play into them (drilled, slotted, floating etc) are for the purpose of heat disipation to prevent brake fade. Hope this made sense.

[vaio76109]

... is brakefade caused by friction in the breaking system, which raises the temperature of the brake fluid to a point in which the brakes are less effective (due to boiling fluid/air in the lines).
Its not just that, you can also put the brake pads out of their optimal heat range and lower their friction coefficient.

[Mike Benvo]

Its not just that, you can also put the brake pads out of their optimal heat range and lower their friction coefficient.

Clearly there are certain individual tolerances of each component related the the braking system. Regardless, the fluid boiling/air in the lines has a much more profound effect on overall stopping capabilities. The BBK will help to dissipate this heat in a much more effective manner, more importantly with tracking conditions and/or repeated stopping from higher speeds.

I want PS2's.

[rana]

The stopping power of a car is directly proportional to the adhesion of the tires to the surface the car is on. If, and only if, the tire adhesion is more than the capability of the breaks themselves (ideally), will a bigger break system benefit in respect to stopping system. Essentially, if the current breaks can lock the wheels at any moment for the surface the tire is on, the brakes are sufficent for the application setting other factors aside. Where the benefit of the BBK comes in (comming from very decent breaks on our BMW's), is brakefade caused by friction in the breaking system, which raises the temperature of the brake fluid to a point in which the brakes are less effective (due to boiling fluid/air in the lines). The bigger rotors and the features that play into them (drilled, slotted, floating etc) are for the purpose of heat disipation to prevent brake fade. Hope this made sense.

not that I didnt know this already....but damn....That was a nice piece of Technical Writing Mike....I didnt even know it was you untill I read your SN. :thumbup:

[Mike Benvo]

not that I didnt know this already....but damn....That was a nice piece of Technical Writing Mike....I didnt even know it was you untill I read your SN. :thumbup:

Thanks :).

Speaking off the issue, I gotta get my rear pads changed because they fade 10 times faster than my front brakes. Kind of... inefficient.

[vaio76109]

Regardless, the fluid boiling/air in the lines has a much more profound effect on overall stopping capabilities.
I'm not so shure about that... but have no technical reference to check against. I dont think there is one answer because it really depends what fluid and pads you're using. You shouldnt fade with right pads and fluid in the first place.

[Mike Benvo]

You shouldnt fade with right pads and fluid in the first place.

Incorrect. There is a threshold of break fade whether it be with stock breaks or with a BBK system. There is a point where after sustained hard breaking applications, they will fade. This might be something very extensive, but regardless it CAN and WILL happen under the right circumstances.

I have a 14" Brembo BBK in front and can get it to fade if I do a bunch of runs and get on the brakes real hard to slow down from 140+ to 50. There is no braking system that never fades under all conditions.

[steelgrey330ci]

Hey mike which ones do you have on?

[vaio76109]

Incorrect. There is a threshold of break fade whether it be with stock breaks or with a BBK system. There is a point where after sustained hard breaking applications, they will fade. This might be something very extensive, but regardless it CAN and WILL happen under the right circumstances.

I have a 14" Brembo BBK in front and can get it to fade if I do a bunch of runs and get on the brakes real hard to slow down from 140+ to 50. There is no braking system that never fades under all conditions.

BRAKES, not breaks.

Of course you can fade the wrong pads or boil the wrong fluid, but my point is if your are fading them then your using one or a combination of the 3: wrong pads, wrong fluid, wrong/bad technique. They make pads for most any temperature range up to and beyond 1800F(after a real quick search).

If your fading I would suggest a different compound and/or brake ducting.

[M3lissa]

You don't really need a new BBK...But it will look so much better

[Mike Benvo]

BRAKES, not breaks.

Of course you can fade the wrong pads or boil the wrong fluid, but my point is if your are fading them then your using one or a combination of the 3: wrong pads, wrong fluid, wrong/bad technique. They make pads for most any temperature range up to and beyond 1800F(after a real quick search).

If your fading I would suggest a different compound and/or brake ducting.

wow.. brakes. I'm sorry my accidental mispelling offended you so much.

You can boil the right fluid, and you can fade the right pad. Everything has a threshold. You sound like those guys that say boost is a direct replacement for displacement.

[vaio76109]

You sound like those guys that say boost is a direct replacement for displacement.
I don't beleive that at all.

[leej323]

Kinda off-topic, but... hey Mike, have you lit your brakes on fire yet?

[Mike Benvo]

Kinda off-topic, but... hey Mike, have you lit your brakes on fire yet?

What do you mean by that?

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

I am trying to be delicate here and not turn this into "is BBK neccessary" topic.

In short, yes there is a theshold of brake fade for ANY brake setup. But no, you have, IMO, yet to experience fading unless you can show evidence of a set of disintegrated pads.

Even without BBK myself, I have not experience fading for a long time. The track is my witness how hard I carve the corners. Btw, I am using OE rotors with HT-10 fronts, HP+ rears, SS Lines and duct cooling. That's it. I have to admit that it's a little hard to imagine fading on the street driving but since you mention braking from 140 to 50 repeatedly (and consecutively I presume), then there might be a slight possibility. I must add that most Brembo BBK pads are HAWK HPS quality. These unfortunately aren't the best for repeated 140 to 50 braking even on the track. Not that I recommend all those with BBK to upgrade to race pads either.

Fading happens when:

1. one exceeds the temperature specification of the pads and the fluid.
2. there isn't enough/proper duct cooling in between braking sessions.
3. wrong braking techniques (mostly due to strategies like "brake late but hard in order to catch up" or "slow down way too much for a fast corner").

Let me relate an experience. Buttonwillow is a track very hard on brakes. In my early track days, I have driven hard on the track with HPS or OE pads quality. Now what exactly is fading? Besides the fact you try to slow the car down and it won't, the brake pedal becomes really spongy and soft. At that point, your heart beat increases because if the car doesn't slow down now, something will happen. Sure the ambulance and tow truck are always at the track. But no one really wants to go home in a chopper. Not to mention the pad material disintegrates and leave deposits on the rotors, to the point that you think the ABS is working but really, it isn't. Added to that, there is a car in front slowing down and another car coming fast from behind. Then you decide to do a little waltz with the car to avoid hitting that car in front and behind. Finally, you make an official argricultural visit to Farmer John, with the possibility of a flip. Pretty much after that, the track day is over because you are shocked from the experience, the pads are messed up and the rotors are blue beyond blue.