***Final Dyno****351whp, 310wtq [Archive]

TaZaM3

01-21-2006, 07:28 PM

Well let me try a crack at this. The car looks like its running fine up until it says 115mph. The power drops here and then jumps back up, something is definetely going on there. SC's give linear power, meaning there should be a linear, steady power line going up all the way to redline. A drop in HP somewhere up top with an SC means only bad things.

NickG

01-21-2006, 07:33 PM

the extra fuel cools the engine and lubricates the cylinders also.

Don't mean to go off-topic, but extra fuel DOES NOT lubricate the cylinders. If anything, it washes off the oil and reduces the lubrication (only with EXTRA rich mixtures, like richer than 10:1).

eg6turbo

01-21-2006, 09:27 PM

i think he was thinking 2 stroke motors...like a nitro rc car where the fuel also acts as the lube..

bernstem

01-21-2006, 09:41 PM

Nice power numbers. The AFR looks very good (peaks at 13) up until about 118mph. After that it looks a little strange - almost like they let off the throttle or something. If they didn't, then it is starting to lean out quite a bit up top and I would be a bit worried about that.

What size injectors are you running? It might be that the injectors are maxxed out at about 330-340hp and that is why the AFR leans out up top.

GBX330ci

01-21-2006, 10:20 PM

clean-m-tech330

01-22-2006, 01:36 AM

hey nice numbers :drool: what setup are you using and how much boost?

bernstem

01-22-2006, 11:32 AM

30# injectors from the Technik stage software package. They probably are maxing out with that power, but i never expected to be making so much!

The 30# injectors probably are maxxing out. When I spoke with Samir, he thought they would be good for somewhere in the range of 330-350RWHP. If ICS is doing some custom tuning for you, have them swap in bigger injectors and see if they can flatten out that AFR at the high end. You might get yet more power out of the engine then.

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 01:10 PM

30# injectors from the Technik stage software package. They probably are maxing out with that power, but i never expected to be making so much!

FWIW, you definitely need larger injectors now. Whatever hardware mods ICS performed on your engine, these 30# won't flow enough [at a comfortable duty cycle] to sustain that much WHP. Looks like they're reaching 100% right around 5000-5500.

russ330

01-22-2006, 01:18 PM

^Any clue as to what alterations could have been performed to get those type of gains?

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 01:35 PM

^Any clue as to what alterations could have been performed to get those type of gains?

Without knowing the extent of his boost leak due to faulty 710s, it's hard to say how much was gained due to actual mods and how much was gained due to simply repairing the problem with stronger BPVs. Either way, some things that come to mind would be relocating the IAT sensor and swapping out the MAF for a larger unit. However, that would require complete recalibration of the software.

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 07:47 PM

...and keep in mind ambient in CT is right around freezing (32deg, http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USCT0218_f.html). It wouldn't be unusual to assume the car put down 293WHP with a boost leak in that temperature, then put down 351WHP with new BPVs and more fuel pressure.

We've seen 330s put down about 310-320WHP @ 9.5psi in 85 degree weather. With a 50+ degree drop in temperature, you could easily gain 30-40WHP. I imagine Mike's car with Stage 3+++ would put down close to 390-400WHP in that weather. Unfortunately, it just doesn't get that cold here in LA.

<img src="http://www.technikpower.com/temp/330_s3_dynocomp.gif">

russ330

01-22-2006, 07:51 PM

:dunno: I'd rather have lower dyno numbers and warmer weather any day. :drool:

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 07:56 PM

:dunno: I'd rather have lower dyno numbers and warmer weather any day. :drool:

heh, I agree...but when it comes to putting down sick power, you can't beat freezing weather :P

2003330i

01-22-2006, 08:42 PM

i knew that the colder it is outside the more power you will get out of your car, but i didn't think it was that much. you really think it will be like a 30-40 horsepower increase in this weather

HighBoostin330

01-22-2006, 08:42 PM

heh, I agree...but when it comes to putting down sick power, you can't beat freezing weather :P

That is until you hit icy roads. :P With black ice, the car has a mind of its own. Samir, you need a heavy duty A/C unit for that new place of yours. ;)

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 09:10 PM

i knew that the colder it is outside the more power you will get out of your car, but i didn't think it was that much. you really think it will be like a 30-40 horsepower increase in this weather

Absolutely...especially for a blown/intercooled setup. But in general, GBX's motor is definitely a strong unit.

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 09:11 PM

Samir, you need a heavy duty A/C unit for that new place of yours. ;)

:shhh: :P

Imported Cars

01-22-2006, 09:13 PM

heh, I agree...but when it comes to putting down sick power, you can't beat freezing weather :P
Hi Samir, this is George from ICS, the weather we are having is in the 50's, I wouldnt be surprised if the dyno room was somewhere in the 60's. Ill send Jason a copy tomorrow in RPM. The car was not running lean, I was closely monitering the digital readout on the computer and saw no more than 12.5-12.6 AFR. Obviusly when it smacked the revlimiter and by the I lifted, which caused the AFR's to rise. Jasons car run extreemly well for a bone stock 330ci, with just an exhaust system. Id like to install a walbro f/pump and a 3.5 or even a custom 4inch HFM which I can fabricate in house and tweak the voltage clamp. I bet id see more boost and possibly more power too. What are your thoughts.

samir@technik

01-22-2006, 09:22 PM

Id like to install a walbro f/p and a 3.5 or even a custom 4inch HFM which I can fabricate in house and tweek the voltage clamp. I bet id see more boost and possibly more power too. What are your thoughts.

I'm not sure how the software will respond to the larger MAF, even with a clamp (never tried it on MS43). It may work, or it could throw codes. Either way, the stock fuel pump can sport 400+WHP (at least it did on Paul's turbo). I'd say at this point, the emphasis should be on larger fuel injectors if you're going to squeeze more out of this car (30# just ain't gonna cut it with that much WHP)...that and some headers/cams to uncork the exhaust system.

Imported Cars

01-22-2006, 09:24 PM

I'm not sure how the software will respond to the larger MAF, even with a clamp (never tried it on MS43). It may work, or it could throw codes. Either way, the stock fuel pump can sport 400+WHP (at least it did on Paul's turbo). I'd say at this point, the emphasis should be on larger fuel injectors if you're going to squeeze more out of this car (30# just ain't gonna cut it with that much WHP)...that and some headers/cams to uncork the exhaust system.
I agree, I believe the cats are probably taking a beating @ this power level, a set of headers would definetly spruce her up.

HighBoostin330

01-22-2006, 09:49 PM

:shhh: :P

It will feel better in the workshop during summer time, which is coming up very soon. :D

And what is a HFM?

Imported Cars

01-22-2006, 09:56 PM

It will feel better in the workshop during summer time, which is coming up very soon. :D

And what is a HFM?
Its a mass air flow sensor.

HighBoostin330

01-22-2006, 10:01 PM

Its a mass air flow sensor.

oOo, I see. I am use to seeing MAF. :-)

trybaljedi

01-22-2006, 11:39 PM

Sick numbers dude. Who would have thought back at Emory that one day you would be making around 400bhp..lol.

2003330i

01-23-2006, 12:45 AM

Absolutely...especially for a blown/intercooled setup. But in general, GBX's motor is definitely a strong unit.

what do you mean a strong unit

HighBoostin330

01-23-2006, 12:56 AM

what do you mean a strong unit

It seems as if BMW built the BMW motors differently given the manufacturing conditions. So, some engine were built stronger than others. But some say the strength of the engine also depends on how well the owner broke-in their engine.

BeRzErKaS

01-23-2006, 01:32 AM

Honestly, i don't know what they did, but they just flattened the AFR's and picked up another 10whp. They also changed out the diverter valves to hyperboost. Apparently, the diaphram on one of my 710N's bursted and wasn't holding the boost. I'm picking it up this afternoon. Also having a few more dyno's emailed me. I'll post them as soon as i get them.

ICS is in CT. www.icsperformance.com

Dude, seriously, the last few dynos to come out of ICS have been so sketchy and short on details that I don't know what to believe anymore.

Didn't u just dyno at 290hp? Then 341hp? Now 351hp?? You have no idea what was done to your car to provide these gains? That sits alright with you?

How bad was your boost leak? What did your boost gauge say? Are you running a piggyback fuel controller or something?

I also can't believe the guy from technik is saying that colder weather is going to provide +40hp. That seems extemely optimistic.

Colder weather makes power because the inlet charge is cooler and thus more dense, right? Well we have boost gauges, don't we? How many additional psi is this car making thanks to the cold weather? I'm very curious about this.

I know the answer will depend on the make of your blower and how well it flows but the most I've ever gained was +1.8 psi when it's really cold outside. You are talking about gains better than 20 hp/psi??

None of this makes sense. So many unanswered questions...

If any of you gurus could provide some answers I think we'd all appreciate it!

We are all here to learn! :bow: :thumbup: :bow:

2003330i

01-23-2006, 03:53 AM

Dude, seriously, the last few dynos to come out of ICS have been so sketchy and short on details that I don't know what to believe anymore.

Didn't u just dyno at 290hp? Then 341hp? Now 351hp?? You have no idea what was done to your car to provide these gains? That sits alright with you?

How bad was your boost leak? What did your boost gauge say? Are you running a piggyback fuel controller or something?

I also can't believe the guy from technik is saying that colder weather is going to provide +40hp. That seems extemely optimistic.

Colder weather makes power because the inlet charge is cooler and thus more dense, right? Well we have boost gauges, don't we? How many additional psi is this car making thanks to the cold weather? I'm very curious about this.

I know the answer will depend on the make of your blower and how well it flows but the most I've ever gained was +1.8 psi when it's really cold outside. You are talking about gains better than 20 hp/psi??

None of this makes sense. So many unanswered questions...

If any of you gurus could provide some answers I think we'd all appreciate it!

We are all here to learn! :bow: :thumbup: :bow:

i didn't know that when you had a supercharger your boost changes with the weather. i thought that it only affected turbo's.

TaZaM3

01-23-2006, 04:08 AM

i didn't know that when you had a supercharger your boost changes with the weather. i thought that it only affected turbo's.

With the cooler weather you can gain a good psi sometimes, at least in my case.

2003330i

01-23-2006, 04:16 AM

With the cooler weather you can gain a good psi sometimes, at least in my case.

how? the boost is controled by a pulley

HighBoostin330

01-23-2006, 04:39 AM

how? the boost is controled by a pulley

But boost pulley does not control the amount of air molecule in one cubic meter of air due to the weather. More colder air means more condensed air molecules. More air molecules is slightly more air to be compressed and makes slightly more boost and that equates to more power.

omes

01-23-2006, 05:12 AM

Great #'s!
I made 303 rwhp with my 6.5psi kit, no sw and stock injectors in the same type of weather. Colder weather definitely help you make big power.
Can't wait to do my upgrades!

Imported Cars

01-23-2006, 07:20 AM

Dude, seriously, the last few dynos to come out of ICS have been so sketchy and short on details that I don't know what to believe anymore.

Didn't u just dyno at 290hp? Then 341hp? Now 351hp?? You have no idea what was done to your car to provide these gains? That sits alright with you?

How bad was your boost leak? What did your boost gauge say? Are you running a piggyback fuel controller or something?

I also can't believe the guy from technik is saying that colder weather is going to provide +40hp. That seems extemely optimistic.

Colder weather makes power because the inlet charge is cooler and thus more dense, right? Well we have boost gauges, don't we? How many additional psi is this car making thanks to the cold weather? I'm very curious about this.

I know the answer will depend on the make of your blower and how well it flows but the most I've ever gained was +1.8 psi when it's really cold outside. You are talking about gains better than 20 hp/psi??

None of this makes sense. So many unanswered questions...

If any of you gurus could provide some answers I think we'd all appreciate it!

We are all here to learn! :bow: :thumbup: :bow:
We are very far from SKETCHY! the valves made 9-10rwhp, the rest was fuel related and richining up the mixture.

steelgrey330ci

01-23-2006, 09:36 AM

Can you please list out the mods that you have on your setup.

I would like to know what you are running with to reach those #'s.

Many thanks:)

GBX330ci

01-23-2006, 10:59 AM

FWIW, you definitely need larger injectors now. Whatever hardware mods ICS performed on your engine, these 30# won't flow enough [at a comfortable duty cycle] to sustain that much WHP. Looks like they're reaching 100% right around 5000-5500.

can I use larger injectors with your stage 1 software, or do i need stage 3? What size injectors would you recommend if i can retain my current software?

GBX330ci

01-23-2006, 11:03 AM

Sick numbers dude. Who would have thought back at Emory that one day you would be making around 400bhp..lol.

I know. Its unreal, right man? I always dreamt of this, but never thought i'd take it this far. Hope everything good with you!

GBX330ci

01-23-2006, 11:04 AM

It seems as if BMW built the BMW motors differently given the manufacturing conditions. So, some engine were built stronger than others. But some say the strength of the engine also depends on how well the owner broke-in their engine.

The funny this is that when i picked up my car, the dealer told me that there was no break-in periods with these car. He told me to drive it as hard as i'd like the second i left!

trybaljedi

01-23-2006, 01:05 PM

I know. Its unreal, right man? I always dreamt of this, but never thought i'd take it this far. Hope everything good with you!

Ill be in the city in the next week or so, I need a ride in that biatch.

GBX330ci

01-23-2006, 01:58 PM

Ill be in the city in the next week or so, I need a ride in that biatch.

Most def. You still have my cell number? It hasn't changed. If not, PM me, email me or hit me up on IM.

beanfree

01-23-2006, 02:28 PM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, I was under the impression that over 400 crank horsepower affected the life of the motor.

samir@technik

01-23-2006, 03:21 PM

I also can't believe the guy from technik is saying that colder weather is going to provide +40hp. That seems extemely optimistic.

Colder weather makes power because the inlet charge is cooler and thus more dense, right? Well we have boost gauges, don't we? How many additional psi is this car making thanks to the cold weather? I'm very curious about this.

I know the answer will depend on the make of your blower and how well it flows but the most I've ever gained was +1.8 psi when it's really cold outside. You are talking about gains better than 20 hp/psi??

A reduction in temperature makes boost pressure go up?

Some basic gas laws...

PV = nRT ; P = nRT/V

(R = gas constant and V = volume of air)

P ~ nT

As temps go down, if n remains constant, P goes down. If P remains constant, n goes UP. In terms of pressure, 10psi @ 85deg is the same as 10psi @ 32deg. The only difference is the density of the air has increased, not the pressure. Barometric pressure doesn't change on a cold day, but air density does increase according to the following formula...

Rho = n/V (Density = # of molecules/mass over V)

PV = nRT ; P/RT = n/V ; Rho = P / (R * T) ; [Where T is in Kelvin and R is the gas constant of dry air]

Based on that, a 50deg drop in temp, increases air density by ~ 10%.

On a car that put down 310-320WHP in 85deg weather, a 10% increase in air density could easily translate into a 30-40WHP gain. Is that what happened here? I don't know (based on what George said, apparently not), but we're all trying to make sense of the numbers. That seemed the logical explanation given the time of year in CT.

None of this makes sense. So many unanswered questions...

If GBX wanted to verify the gains, he could take it to another dyno just to be sure. :dunno: That's up to him.

steelgrey330ci

01-23-2006, 04:40 PM

SO WHAT DOES HE HAVE UNDER THAT HOOD.

ASA WITH 9.5psi and ...............?

thanks

steelgrey330ci

01-23-2006, 04:47 PM

Also what gear are you doing this dyno in.

JC7727

01-23-2006, 05:38 PM

Barometric pressure doesn't change on a cold day.

Barometric pressure changes every day, a cold day is usually accompanied by a higher atmospheric pressure than a warm day.

GBX330ci

01-23-2006, 06:38 PM

ok, first off, let's nip this temerature thing in the butt. I just checked the Saturday and Sunday New York Times and the high for saturday, the day of my 351whp dyno, was in the high 50's. Actually White Plains was 60 degrees which is slightly south of Stamford (where ICS is located) and Bridgeport was 56 which is north of Stamform. If anyone has their dbouts, please feel free to check your local paper from over the weekend.

As for what i have under the hood, hmmmm lets see....I have an ASA tm-12 blower w/ old style intercooler, running around 9.5 psi of boost along with technik software and injectors. In addtion to that, i apparently have a freakishly strong 3.0L motor. Oh, and some love from ICS :P That's it. No other engine mods...

I'd be happy to go to another dyno. Can someone recommend a reputable dyno shop in my area? Anyone want to join me?

Imported Cars

01-23-2006, 07:07 PM

Also what gear are you doing this dyno in.
3.15 diff, and 4rth gear pulls.

xxcosmicxx

01-23-2006, 07:27 PM

Nice #'s... You and Benvo would be a fun race... Too bad yall live in different places!

Great job nonetheless! :craig:

GBX330ci

01-23-2006, 07:33 PM

3.15 diff, and 4rth gear pulls.

Actually, its a 3.07.

2003330i

01-23-2006, 07:57 PM

But boost pulley does not control the amount of air molecule in one cubic meter of air due to the weather. More colder air means more condensed air molecules. More air molecules is slightly more air to be compressed and makes slightly more boost and that equates to more power.

i know that its more power but didn't know it was more boost

samir@technik

01-23-2006, 09:19 PM

Barometric pressure changes every day,

I never said it didn't. I said barometric pressure doesn't change (up or down) just because it's colder. Density does.

a cold day is usually accompanied by a higher atmospheric pressure than a warm day.

I'm not a meteorologist. Just telling you what the gas laws stipulate.

samir@technik

01-23-2006, 09:24 PM

i know that its more power but didn't know it was more boost

It's not. Power is made in cooler temps due to an increase in air density, boost is not affected (at least not in any significant way). More importantly though than the air temp drop and the air density increase, is the effect that cold air has on the intake charge temp. Lower intake charge temp = lower IAT = less propensity for knock = more spark advance = more power.

samir@technik

01-23-2006, 09:26 PM

I'd be happy to go to another dyno. Can someone recommend a reputable dyno shop in my area? Anyone want to join me?

http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/ny.htm

http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/ct.htm

JC7727

01-23-2006, 09:38 PM

I never said it didn't. I said barometric pressure doesn't change (up or down) just because it's colder. Density does.

I'm not a meteorologist. Just telling you what the gas laws stipulate.
The density of the air is affected by not only the atmospheric pressure and temperature but by the amount of moisture or water vapor in the air. Cold moist air is denser than dry warm air. The atmospheric pressure is affected by temperature and moisture and all of these factors interact with each other in determining the density of an air parcel. Saturday was a warm and fairly dry for the dyno, with a temp near 60 and RH levels in the 40's.

JC7727

01-23-2006, 09:39 PM

http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/ny.htm

http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/ct.htm
I would recomend mustang magic, my friends uncle is good friends with the place :thumbup:

2003330i

01-24-2006, 01:30 AM

It's not. Power is made in cooler temps due to an increase in air density, boost is not affected (at least not in any significant way). More importantly though than the air temp drop and the air density increase, is the effect that cold air has on the intake charge temp. Lower intake charge temp = lower IAT = less propensity for knock = more spark advance = more power.

Samir, i understand what your saying but then how are some people claiming that they got an extra 1 or 2 pounds of boost in cool weather on a supercharger. do they just mean that they got 1 or 2 pound of boost in power or really 2 psi

vaio76109

01-24-2006, 01:32 AM

Shouldnt the dyno software compute the hp to SAE standard temperature, altitude, and pressure?

samir@technik

01-24-2006, 02:10 AM

Samir, i understand what your saying but then how are some people claiming that they got an extra 1 or 2 pounds of boost in cool weather on a supercharger.

Because that can happen regardless of temp conditions. Boost continually fluctuates within the induction tract everytime the motor completes a stroke (as the valves open and close, boost is going up and down). It's not like your hitting a perfect round number of PSI everytime. This is especially true of turbochargers and to some degree, superchargers (belt slippage, etc.). The point is: the main reason why an engine will make more power in cooler temperatures is due to denser air and lower IATs, boost and weather conditions are only minor variables (and for the sake of this argument, constant).

2003330i

01-24-2006, 02:13 AM

Because that can happen regardless of temp conditions. Boost continually fluctuates within the induction tract everytime the motor completes a stroke (as the valves open and close, boost is going up and down). It's not like your hitting a perfect round number of PSI everytime. This is especially true of turbochargers and to some degree, superchargers (belt slippage, etc.). The point is: the main reason why an engine will make more power in cooler temperatures is due to denser air and lower IATs, boost and weather conditions are only minor variables (and for the sake of this argument, constant).

hahah ok very well explained.

samir@technik

01-24-2006, 02:14 AM

The density of the air is affected by not only the atmospheric pressure and temperature but by the amount of moisture or water vapor in the air.

I agree, but I am talking about gas laws in general, not weather conditions (that's all).

steelgrey330ci

01-24-2006, 08:35 AM

Hey SAmir

I thought using a 9.5 psi pulley on a TM-12 unit is really not worth it? Why not in this case (other then the cold weather)

LAFENGAS

01-24-2006, 11:44 AM

I'm not a meteorologist. Just telling you what the gas laws stipulate.

I really don't want to get into this argument... and i'm not saying you're equations are wrong (which they aren't)... just remember those are "IDEAL" Gas laws....which you used your "R" value...

But with Different Air Densities.... the variable is small "r"

p * v = R * T or p = r * R * T

If you want... i could work it out when i'm not busy with work.

DarXide

01-24-2006, 03:37 PM

Nice Numbers...:thumbup:

I can imagine Jerry making 577.5 RWHP in that weather...:yikes:

GBX330ci

01-24-2006, 04:22 PM

Shouldnt the dyno software compute the hp to SAE standard temperature, altitude, and pressure?

Good point. I remember hearing that too.

TaZaM3

01-24-2006, 06:14 PM

Its says SAE on the top right.

meel330

01-24-2006, 06:17 PM

nice numbers

Imported Cars

01-24-2006, 07:23 PM

Good point. I remember hearing that too.
We can send you or Samir the run file if you like, it will have all those answers to the questions you guys are looking for, let me know ill have brian get them out right away.

GBX330ci

01-25-2006, 09:26 AM

We can send you or Samir the run file if you like, it will have all those answers to the questions you guys are looking for, let me know ill have brian get them out right away.

The run file won't do me any good. I don't have any questions. George, you know i'm a believer in my 351whp run and i'm freaking lovin' the power, by thw way :drool: Just agreeing that SAE conversion takes into account temp, etc so it shouldn't have an effect on the power. Was talking to Junior about that yesterday.

If anyone else wants it, let me know.

Mike Benvo

01-25-2006, 10:06 AM

The run file won't do me any good. I don't have any questions. George, you know i'm a believer in my 351whp run and i'm freaking lovin' the power, by thw way :drool: Just agreeing that SAE conversion takes into account temp, etc so it shouldn't have an effect on the power. Was talking to Junior about that yesterday.

If anyone else wants it, let me know.

I'd like to check it out, not because I'm doubting the dyno results- Just want to see the plots against mine in WinPEP for reference purposes.

My email: mike@exservers.com

Thanks!