Cleansweep or Audiocontrol?

[Gatorsurgeon]

I'm new to the forum. I'm getting ready to take the plunge on upgrading the stereo ('03 M3 with H/K). Keeping the stock headunit. My plan is Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's in the doors powered by a JL 300/2, with JL Stealthboxes in the back powered by a JL 250/1. I'm either going to get a JL Cleansweep or an Audiocontrol EQL. The Cleansweep automatically flattens the eq curve from the stock HU; the audiocontrol lets you do it yourself, assuming you have access to an RTA (which I do). Does anyone have any experience with either of these devices? Any thoughts or recommendations?

[jav330ci]

just had the exact same components in my coupe., except I went with the Audio Control LC8. I have the pro 60's up front, JL 300/4 bridged to 150/2, the stealthboxes with the 250/1 and the Audio Control LC 8 with the bass control knob. It sounds great. I did some research on the Clean Sweep and Audio Control LC8 and found out that the cleansweep is designed for setups that require you to tap into the signals after the factory amp, like Bose sytems on certain cars. With our setups, it's not as important since most of the time, people take the hk amp out and tap into the signals before they're crossed over. The installer who did everything said he was very impresssed with the AC LC8. Either way you go, make sure you have control of your stealths with an output knob, it makes a huge difference.

Hope this helps

:thumbup:

[jamoses66]

just had the exact same components in my coupe., except I went with the Audio Control LC8. I have the pro 60's up front, JL 300/4 bridged to 150/2, the stealthboxes with the 250/1 and the Audio Control LC 8 with the bass control knob. It sounds great. I did some research on the Clean Sweep and Audio Control LC8 and found out that the cleansweep is designed for setups that require you to tap into the signals after the factory amp, like Bose sytems on certain cars. With our setups, it's not as important since most of the time, people take the hk amp out and tap into the signals before they're crossed over. The installer who did everything said he was very impresssed with the AC LC8. Either way you go, make sure you have control of your stealths with an output knob, it makes a huge difference.

Hope this helps

:thumbup:

I went with an Audocontrol LC6 with great success. I avoided the CleanSweep due to the requirement that in order to use it correctly you need to use the volume control on the CleanSweep and not the volume control on the headunit or steering wheel.

-J

[Canuck328i]

AC 2XS on my end for the front end interface. Works awesome.

BTW the OEM head unit (h/k or non-h/k) does not perform any equalization to the audio signal (I've scoped it to test that out) so the equalization functions of the CleanSweep isn't really needed. This is assuming connection at the head unit outputs (BEFORE the OEM amp) - after the OEM amp on h/k systems there is DSP processing and h/k driver equalization.

Mark

[alizbeemer]

I think the cleansweep is also like 400 or so maybe 350 audiocontrol is a better deal

[Gatorsurgeon]

OK. Sounds like AC is the way to go. Next question: there are several different products from AudioControl, and they accept different numbers of inputs from the headunit. How many come out of the HK headunit? Do you need a device that accepts more than 2 inputs?

[djmatty]

just had the exact same components in my coupe., except I went with the Audio Control LC8. I have the pro 60's up front, JL 300/4 bridged to 150/2, the stealthboxes with the 250/1 and the Audio Control LC 8 with the bass control knob. It sounds great. I did some research on the Clean Sweep and Audio Control LC8 and found out that the cleansweep is designed for setups that require you to tap into the signals after the factory amp, like Bose sytems on certain cars. With our setups, it's not as important since most of the time, people take the hk amp out and tap into the signals before they're crossed over. The installer who did everything said he was very impresssed with the AC LC8. Either way you go, make sure you have control of your stealths with an output knob, it makes a huge difference.

Hope this helps

:thumbup:
I don't know if there's any install that requires you to tap into the wires after the amp, and regardless, it's a very bad idea.

[jav330ci]

Apparantely some of the new cars that come wih Bose systems make it difficult to tap the signals before they're crossed over. I heard that from a high end shop in San Diego, and they sold both the Cleansweep and the AC LC8. I needed 6 channels from the LC8 to hook up my system

[djmatty]

Apparantely some of the new cars that come wih Bose systems make it difficult to tap the signals before they're crossed over. I heard that from a high end shop in San Diego, and they sold both the Cleansweep and the AC LC8. I needed 6 channels from the LC8 to hook up my system
Sounds like BS. :thumbdwn:

[Canuck328i]

OK. Sounds like AC is the way to go. Next question: there are several different products from AudioControl, and they accept different numbers of inputs from the headunit. How many come out of the HK headunit? Do you need a device that accepts more than 2 inputs?

Depends on what type of control you want up front. If you want to retain OEM fader control (either for front-to-back or highs-to-subs control), then a 4-channel device is what you need (or two 2-channel devices). If you don't need that, then 2 channel is just fine.

Just be sure that the AC component you choose is balanced-input capable - for example, the 4XS wouldn't work but the other XS components would. The EQL you previously mentioned would work fine - simply solder RCA connectors to the front-outputs of the HU and plug in. :thumbup:

Mark

[jav330ci]

I guess by calling it BS, you're saying that you've taken apart some late model cars that come with the 10 speaker Bose system and verified that the lines aren't already crossed over and you can tap into a clean signal, right?

:hmm:

[djmatty]

I guess by calling it BS, you're saying that you've taken apart some late model cars that come with the 10 speaker Bose system and verified that the lines aren't already crossed over and you can tap into a clean signal, right?

:hmm:
No, I'm saying there's pretty much no possible setup that would require you to tap into the signal after the amp.

[Gatorsurgeon]

Depends on what type of control you want up front. If you want to retain OEM fader control (either for front-to-back or highs-to-subs control), then a 4-channel device is what you need (or two 2-channel devices). If you don't need that, then 2 channel is just fine.

Just be sure that the AC component you choose is balanced-input capable - for example, the 4XS wouldn't work but the other XS components would. The EQL you previously mentioned would work fine - simply solder RCA connectors to the front-outputs of the HU and plug in. :thumbup:

Mark

Thanks. This is exactly what I need to know. I thought of one more issue. I want to use separate amps for the front component speaker and the rear woofers. An active crossover would allow me to split the signal and send only the high/mid range to the amp for the fronts and the low range to the amp for rears. Is this what I should do, or should those front speakers receive a full-range signal, since they are the main stage? Is a crossover necessary for a set-up such as this?

[Canuck328i]

Thanks. This is exactly what I need to know. I thought of one more issue. I want to use separate amps for the front component speaker and the rear woofers. An active crossover would allow me to split the signal and send only the high/mid range to the amp for the fronts and the low range to the amp for rears. Is this what I should do, or should those front speakers receive a full-range signal, since they are the main stage? Is a crossover necessary for a set-up such as this?

I would highly recommend using a crossover (your first scenario) - when the front speakers only receive everything above what the subs receive, they don't burn off power from the amp trying to play low frequencies that they cannot play anyway. In the end they will sound better - the mid-woofer excursion will be more controlled. Plus there will be less overlap of played frequencies between the front end and the subs.

BTW, a 2XS would handle this split perfectly. :D If you don't have a local dealer for AC, EBay will get you a 2XS for around 30 to 50 bucks (Series II or Concert Series preferred).

Mark

[Gatorsurgeon]

I would highly recommend using a crossover (your first scenario) - when the front speakers only receive everything above what the subs receive, they don't burn off power from the amp trying to play low frequencies that they cannot play anyway. In the end they will sound better - the mid-woofer excursion will be more controlled. Plus there will be less overlap of played frequencies between the front end and the subs.

BTW, a 2XS would handle this split perfectly. :D If you don't have a local dealer for AC, EBay will get you a 2XS for around 30 to 50 bucks (Series II or Concert Series preferred).

Mark

Awesome. I'll either get the 2XS or possibly splurge on the EQX; the gadget factor of the EQX would be fun. Thank you for your help. This system is going to sound sweet.

Carr

[Gatorsurgeon]

I would highly recommend using a crossover (your first scenario) - when the front speakers only receive everything above what the subs receive, they don't burn off power from the amp trying to play low frequencies that they cannot play anyway. In the end they will sound better - the mid-woofer excursion will be more controlled. Plus there will be less overlap of played frequencies between the front end and the subs.

BTW, a 2XS would handle this split perfectly. :D If you don't have a local dealer for AC, EBay will get you a 2XS for around 30 to 50 bucks (Series II or Concert Series preferred).

Mark

Awesome. I'll either get the 2XS or possibly splurge on the EQX; the gadget factor of the EQX would be fun. Thank you for your help. This system is going to sound sweet.

Carr

[Gatorsurgeon]

I would highly recommend using a crossover (your first scenario) - when the front speakers only receive everything above what the subs receive, they don't burn off power from the amp trying to play low frequencies that they cannot play anyway. In the end they will sound better - the mid-woofer excursion will be more controlled. Plus there will be less overlap of played frequencies between the front end and the subs.

BTW, a 2XS would handle this split perfectly. :D If you don't have a local dealer for AC, EBay will get you a 2XS for around 30 to 50 bucks (Series II or Concert Series preferred).

Mark

Awesome. I'll either get the 2XS or splurge on the EQX, which might be fun for the gadget factor. Thanks for your help. This system is going to sound sweet.

Carr

[djmatty]

Best bet would be to tap into the four signal wires coming from the HU just before the stock amp (front left, front right, rear left, rear right), and run that to a 4 channel Audiocontrol LOC. Then, run RCAs to your amp(s). Use the crossover on your amp to take the low frequencies out for your components, then use the crossover that comes with the components to get the mids to the component woofers and the highs to the tweeters.

[Canuck328i]

... then use the crossover that comes with the components to get the mids to the component woofers and the highs to the tweeters.

Yes, that would be the second scenario gatorsurgeon described. But that is not the ideal setup as it still sends full frequency signals to the front components even though they are not capable of reproducing the full spectrum.

Mark

[djmatty]

Yes, that would be the second scenario gatorsurgeon described. But that is not the ideal setup as it still sends full frequency signals to the front components even though they are not capable of reproducing the full spectrum.

Mark
Reread what I posted.

[Seth_Horwitz]

Reread what I posted.

Ease up on the hostility. Mark is one of the most knowledgeable guys on this board. No need to drive away contributing members.

[Gatorsurgeon]

Sorry my last post somehow appeared in triplicate. As I understand it,the difference in what Mark described and what DJMatty described is that Mark's scenario sends only selected frequencies to the amp(s), which can then send the entire signal it recieves on to the speakers. DJMatty's scenario sends full-range signals to each amp, and the amps then filter out the high-mid or low frequencies before sending the rest to the speakers. So there's no difference in what reaches the respective speakers; it's just a question of whether the crossover is done pre-amp or intra-amp. Is that significant in terms of the power usage/performance of the amplifiers?

[djmatty]

Ease up on the hostility. Mark is one of the most knowledgeable guys on this board. No need to drive away contributing members.
I didn't mean it in any condescening way.

[Canuck328i]

Reread what I posted.

I did and stand by my post - I guess I have to explain it again so you understand.

Most passive component crossovers that I am aware of do not filter out sub bass audio to the woofers, so the front woofers will be playing full range frequencies below the passive LP cutoff (if the passive even has a LPF for the woofers) in the sub bass region along with the subs. This is NOT the ideal way to do it as you will have frequency overlap and potential cancellation, peaks/valleys and phase issues plus power waste.

In my opinion I'd rather only have the front speakers playing frequencies they are capable of - sending 0-40Hz or higher to unenclosed 6.5" drivers is a waste. The 2XS way is basically how I have mine set up and I love it as the 6.5s up front have a nice controlled excursion above the frequency point of the sub crossover. I also find the amp for the 6.5s runs nice and cool since it only plays frequencies that can be heard.

Carr, you can really do it either way, it is up to you - you'll find everyone here has their own way of doing things so you'll have to wade through the advice until you have a good game plan.

Mark

[Canuck328i]

...So there's no difference in what reaches the respective speakers; it's just a question of whether the crossover is done pre-amp or intra-amp. Is that significant in terms of the power usage/performance of the amplifiers?

Just to clarify, yes there is a difference - it is in the frequencies sent to the front woofers BELOW the sub crossover point. In the first scenario (2XS), the front woofers are actively crossed over at the sub frequency point, in the second scenario the front woofers get everything from 0 Hz and up. Remember that sub frequencies use a large amount of power, so why send them to speakers that can't play them?

Good luck man - let us know how you decide to go. :thumbup:

Mark

[djmatty]

You still misunderstand. The amplifier's crossover would be cutting off those frequencies.

[Gatorsurgeon]

Mark and DJ, thanks for excellent suggestions. One last question. DJ mentions tapping into four wires from the OEM headunit, which presumably would require four input channels on the line output converter. Mark, how do you set things up with a 2XS, which has only 2 input channels?

[djmatty]

Well, it'd be 8 wires. Two for each channel. If you wanted two channels, you'd just use the +/- for the right and left front channels.

[Gatorsurgeon]

Well, it'd be 8 wires. Two for each channel. If you wanted two channels, you'd just use the +/- for the right and left front channels.

Right. Eight wires for four channels. If an identical, complete signal is sent from the headunit to both the front and the rear, then you'd really only need to tap into one pair of channels. Is there any advantage in tapping into both pairs?

[djmatty]

You get both fade and balance control instead of just balance. Also, if you want to have 4 channels going out from your LOC and/or amp, but only have two channels for input, one of those pieces of electronics will have to split the signal, which sacrifices sound quality (slightly).

[bigjae1976]

The LC6 and LC8 have channel summing. That means you can hook up the LC6/8 to the wires after the amp.

Example, you have a 10 speaker system incl a sub an the system has a 3 way crossover. You'll need to tap a speaker output that is going to a low, mid, and hi for each side. The C6/8 sums the crossed over signal into a full range signal. The owner's manual explains it in more detail.

Bottom line is that you can tap the OEM signal before or after the amp, it says it in the owner's manual and all of the product literature.

[djmatty]

The LC6 and LC8 have channel summing. That means you can hook up the LC6/8 to the wires after the amp.

Example, you have a 10 speaker system incl a sub an the system has a 3 way crossover. You'll need to tap a speaker output that is going to a low, mid, and hi for each side. The C6/8 sums the crossed over signal into a full range signal. The owner's manual explains it in more detail.

Bottom line is that you can tap the OEM signal before or after the amp, it says it in the owner's manual and all of the product literature.
Doesn't really matter. You could have an top-of-the-line audio product, and the OEM amp will still produce a ton of distortion. It's a thousand times easier to just wire it up before the amp.

[skeelo34]

I have a cleansweep and I'm very happy with it. The shop I went to told me some bs that I needed an lc6 to recombine the signal after the amp and feed that into the cleansweep as they said the signal is crossed over at the head unit. As I suspected, that was total bs. I tapped into the signal before the hk amp and got the full signal. As far as the extra volume knob, you're not stuck with it. I use it sometimes when I don't have people in the car. The sound is not really any different using the factory knob unless you put the volume all the way up, at which point it gets slightly distored. When using the cleansweep knob, this problem dissappears. Since you need to calibrate the cleansweep with a set volume on the factory headunit, I simply counted 15 clicks on the stock knob, and set it there. This way I know exactly when I'm putting my headunit at the calibrated volume......

[bigjae1976]

Doesn't really matter. You could have an top-of-the-line audio product, and the OEM amp will still produce a ton of distortion. It's a thousand times easier to just wire it up before the amp.

I've been reading that some manufacturers are starting to use a system called "MOST". I've only read about it and have never used it. If that is the case, you will require an LOC that can re-sum the signal. In addition, there are other issues in other brands of cars that make it necessary or easier to re-sum the amplified signal.

Is autosumming necessary for an E46? No. I was simply pointing out that the LC6/LC8 can in fact autosum.

And most OEM amps really don't produce a whole bunch of distortion.

[djmatty]

And most OEM amps really don't produce a whole bunch of distortion.
Most aftermarket amps produce < 0.01% THD. The OEM E46 amp produces about 10% THD. A lot more than what you want. And a lot more than all the autosumming in the world can do anything about.

[bigjae1976]

Where did you get that? Distortion figures can vary. 10% at what freq? Is it 20hz - 20khz? Or just 1khz? What volume level?

I don't put a lot of stock into THD.

[djmatty]

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=245914

I believe it's somewhere in there.

And regardless, if you want proof, go out to your car and turn the volume knob up. I know that when I had my stock system, it sounded quite distorted at higher volumes. Now imagine putting that through an amplifier--it's not going to sound good.

[bigjae1976]

The stock system suffers from a lack of power, bad speakers and poor installation, not bad electronics. The stock system doesn't sound all that horrible. It just lacks the low end bass.

I still haven't seen any measurements of the stock amp's THD in the link where the guy used a scope. I'm willing to bet its no worse than most aftermarket amps.

As I said earlier, I'm not here to argue with you which sounds better. I was simply pointing out a feature of a particular product.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't tap after the amp in an E46 because there's no real need to.

As I said earlier, some new cars REQUIRE to tap after them amp, therefore autosumming is required for proper OEM integration

As I said earlier, this does not apply to E46s.

If you want to keep arging which sounds better, I'll be happy to play along. I'm still wondering where that 10% THD figure came from.

[DK_Nguyen]

Get a new HU, solve all of your problem :)

[djmatty]

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=318440

Post #3.


As I said earlier, some new cars REQUIRE to tap after them amp, therefore autosumming is required for proper OEM integration
I've still never seen an actual system like that, and still think of it as a physical/logical impossibility.

[bigjae1976]

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=318440

Post #3.


I've still never seen an actual system like that, and still think of it as a physical/logical impossibility.

Thanks for the info.

I have seen photos and a detailed description of a 745i with an LC8 integrated into the Logic 7 system using the autosum feature. Which forum escapes me at this time. I'll find it sooner or later.