is the tm 12 stage 2 worth it?

[sheefo2k]

i might be able to get it for a great deal should i jump on it? or save more and more for the tm 15

[russ330]

If you're planning on pushing more power down the line then you'd probably be best going with the TM-15. I went with the TM-12 with the 8 PSI pulley and kinda think I should have gone with the TM-15. From what I understand the TM-15 is able to breathe a little better and be more affective with complementary mods, i.e. cams, headers, etc. I don't think that the TM-12 will be detrimental to overall power goals, I think the thing can push up to 10 PSI and still be effective.

I'm looking for more info because I've asked Samir something similar in the past, I just gotta find the posts.

Edit: Here's the additional info -

what are the main benefits of the TM15 over the TM12The TM15 is a bigger compressor capable of supporting more HP. We use it as a compressor upgrade for the Stage 2 and Stage 3 330 kits because it will support additional mods such as cams, headers, ported head, etc. The TM12 is only good for about 300-310WHP and is better suited for smaller displacement engines.


How does having the TM15 support the additional mods? I'm wondering how do cams, headers, etc affect what the blower does? I was under the impression that the compressor was solely responsible for cramming more air into the engine. How does having mods like headers effect the compressors operation? I'm not understanding how a TM15 at 8 psi with headers functions better than a TM (equipped with an 8 psi pulley) and headers.

Thanks. Let's use a fuel injector as an example. Take a 300cc injector. Generally, you could estimate that a 300cc injector will support ~ 300WHP (this is not an established fact, but somewhat of a general rule). While modifications such as cams, headers, etc. will not directly affect the fuel injector, the increase in power they produce, will tax the injector to support the increased power level. At some point, the fuel support will run out and you'll need to swap out for larger injectors.

Same thing for the compressor, but instead of fuel, the compressor is supplying "air". While it is perfectly OK to run a TM12 with cams, headers, etc. (you will make more power), having the added airflow support of the TM15 will help optimize the increase in power.

[sheefo2k]

so obviously you cant do the tm 12 with 9.5 pulley?

[russ330]

I'd ask Samir. You may be able to still use the 9.5 pulley but you probably wouldn't get as much power as you would with the TM-15. :dunno:

[steelgrey330ci]

I'm using the 9.5psi pulley with the Tm-12 now and it gave me a nice little push on the mid to top end. But its all depends how much you want. Right now with this setup I'm in around the 315 rwhp mark now but I want the 380 rwhp mark.

Cheers

[clean-m-tech330]

It really depends on what mods youre planning on doing to the car, if you're planning on adding headers and cams, then yeah I'd definitely go for the TM-15 if not the TM-12 is your best bet, it'll spool faster, as it's a smaller blower and flow just the right amount of air for your setup- i hope you get the kit, i want to see it!!!

[clean-m-tech330]

I'd ask Samir. You may be able to still use the 9.5 pulley but you probably wouldn't get as much power as you would with the TM-15. :dunno:

This is only true if you have more than just the blower kit, meaning if you have cams, headers, and possibly exhaust- this is because if you flow too much air the car wont be able to fully utilize the extra airflow and as you know the bigger the blower the slower the spool, the tm-15 is no slug but it's not as quick to spool as a tm-12 would be- youll the see tm-15 shine on the top end where the tm-12 begins to fall off- the tm-15 picks up where the tm-12 falls and so on-

[LakeShow]

Damn! I have the TM-12 stage 2 boosting 8 PSI. I want to add Cams, Headers and magnaflow racing cats. Will my compressor take that or is it too small? -TIA

[russ330]

This is only true if you have more than just the blower kit, meaning if you have cams, headers, and possibly exhaust- this is because if you flow too much air the car wont be able to fully utilize the extra airflow and as you know the bigger the blower the slower the spool, the tm-15 is no slug but it's not as quick to spool as a tm-12 would be- youll the see tm-15 shine on the top end where the tm-12 begins to fall off- the tm-15 picks up where the tm-12 falls and so on-

Gotcha. :thumbup: Makes sense when you explain it. :)

[sheefo2k]

ahhh the possiblities just suck. I ll def be doing cams etc in the future.

what the difference in WHP did people get with the stage 2 tm 12 with a 8.5 or 9 pulley and with the tm 15 and 10 psi pulley?

let me rephrase my self, stock tm 12 with the smallest pulley possible versus the tm 15 with the smallest pulley possilble.

[clean-m-tech330]

No problem, glad to help! :thumbsup: I've talked about this very same idea with Samir on several different occasions. I actually graduated from Technik haha jk- :craig:

[clean-m-tech330]

ahhh the possiblities just suck. I ll def be doing cams etc in the future.

what the difference in WHP did people get with the stage 2 tm 12 with a 8.5 or 9 pulley and with the tm 15 and 10 psi pulley?

let me rephrase my self, stock tm 12 with the smallest pulley possible versus the tm 15 with the smallest pulley possilble.


If you plan on running over 9.5psi and are going to be adding cams, headers, etc- then yes, I would definitely opt for the TM-15, however this isnt a case of "bigger is better" haha err something like that. If you dont have the ability to flow the air from the TM-15 you'll only be hurting yourself. Stick with what you need then go to what you want- If you're going be doing cams and headers in conjunction with the s/c install TM-15 hands down. If you're just installing the s/c kit alone TM-12 hands down, you'll still have some growing room with the 12 at 9.5psi, headers would be a good addition to your kit- :)

[GBX330ci]

i'm running the TM-12 w/ the 9.5 psi pulley (130mm). I'm pusing 351whp and that was before the technik FMIC upgrade. I need to dyno again. I also have a freakishly strong motor and ICS worked wonders tweaking the car, so you can't really go by me. :evil:

[sheefo2k]

I have a freaky motor too ;) I pull on stock m3s and modfied m3s i lose by top of 4th :D its pretty freak too ;)

I wish ICS was here.

[AS007]

^ E46 or E36 M3's?

[sheefo2k]

e46 :D

[KOTHB]

ahhh the possiblities just suck. I ll def be doing cams etc in the future.

Nononono. The possibilities BLOW! Not suck.

I have no technical knowledge to add to the discussion, but I can read what you're writing.

To me, it sounds like you want to go for the 15. You're going to keep on playing with this toy for awhile. If you get the 12, you're going to wonder if you should have gone bigger.

[steelgrey330ci]

Now you have to think about cost. Bigger means more money too.

I would have loved to have bought an M3 but you have to be realistic with your purchase as well. There will always be what if.

[MachRc]

but then if you get the 15, aren't you also going to wonder how the twin scroll would be like no? If your in cali sheefo2k , I really do recommend the st3 tm15.
for the extra g or so. But if your on budget like me a used tm-12 stg two will still kick arse, be efficient, and be had for under 3-4gs. Either ways, you know the next step you must take if you plan to keep your sweet ride for coupla more years. The SC will be the bright red cherry on top:)

[sheefo2k]

I decided to keep my car for years to come. So I think i ll be getting the TM-12

Now I gotta research more and see what gains people have gotten with the TM-12 etc

[freshyip]

i was just thinking. how is gas consumption for 3.0L M54TU ASA TM12?
$/km or $/miles

thanks!

[clean-m-tech330]

when you buy a Super Charger its more smiles per mile-i get roughly 16-17 and that's driving somewhat quickly or something along those lines :shhh:

[2003330i]

i finally get my car back tomorrow morning so i will also be ble to shed some light on this. i went with the tm12 at 9.5psi and headers

[GBX330ci]

i finally get my car back tomorrow morning so i will also be ble to shed some light on this. i went with the tm12 at 9.5psi and headers

who did the install for you?

[clean-m-tech330]

i finally get my car back tomorrow morning so i will also be ble to shed some light on this. i went with the tm12 at 9.5psi and headers


^

good plan- headers and the tm-12 are where it's at, especially for zhps!!

[2003330i]

who did the install for you?
azevedo motorsports in linden NJ

[beanfree]

i finally get my car back tomorrow morning so i will also be ble to shed some light on this. i went with the tm12 at 9.5psi and headers

Why not the tm15 at 9.5 psi

[clean-m-tech330]

because the tm-12 spools faster :thumbsup:

[beanfree]

because the tm-12 spools faster :thumbsup:

I don't mean to be rude or obnoxious but is this your opinion or a fact. I am waiting for the Stage 3 but seems like everyone is going for the tm 12 instead of tm 15. Maybe I should too. Thanks for the info.

[clean-m-tech330]

This is exactly what I was told by Samir, he and I have spoke about this numerous times and yes, the 12 spools faster. I'll speak with Samir again and make sure that I can explain why in more precise detail. i dont want to say anything incorrect and mislead anyone. However samir is away on business at moment and I'll do my best to get an exact answer asap. thanks-

[vmwerks]

Edited

[beanfree]

This is exactly what I was told by Samir, he and I have spoke about this numerous times and yes, the 12 spools faster. I'll speak with Samir again and make sure that I can explain why in more precise detail. i dont want to say anything incorrect and mislead anyone. However samir is away on business at moment and I'll do my best to get an exact answer asap. thanks-

The way Samir explained it: to make the same power, the tm15 uses a larger pulley (150mm vs. 140mm) and therefore takes longer to spool. The tm 12 therefore creates more torque than the tm15.

[clean-m-tech330]

well there you go- perfect answer-

[clean-m-tech330]

I don't mean to be rude or obnoxious but is this your opinion or a fact. I am waiting for the Stage 3 but seems like everyone is going for the tm 12 instead of tm 15. Maybe I should too. Thanks for the info.

I think you've managed to answer your own question now, so see as i was saying the 12 spools faster. we're both right- :craig:

[beanfree]

I learn stuff everyday on this forum. That is why I am on it. :pimpin:

[MarvelPhx]

Maybe I can help explain TM-12 vs TM-15. It is all about compressor efficiency. I have attached two images I created showing the TM-12 and TM-15 compressor maps with PR/flow lines for 8, 9.5, and 11 psi on a 3.0 liter engine turning 6800 rpm redline.

Compressor maps show how a compressor performs under certain conditions. They are generally used by people to pre-size compressors for a kit they want to create. Since we are dealing with centrifugals, the boost is linear vs rpm so the flow lines are straight. It is much trickier with turbos, but they have maps as well.

The X (vertical) axis is PR or Pressure Ratio. A PR of 1 is atmospheric and the engine breathes that on its own. PR of 2 would be another atmosphere of pressure or 14.7 psi above normal, aka BOOST! For example, 8psi of boost is 14.7 + 8 divided by 14.7 or 1.54PR.

The Y (horizontal) axis is airflow. This is calculated by knowing the displacement, RPM, and volumetric efficiency of the engine (which is basically just a air pump).

With PR and airflow, we can draw a boost line from that point to zero. I put three on each image.

Now, the line on the left I marked in ORANGE is the Surge Line. This is where the compressor outruns the engine and pushes so much air, the engine can't use it and it "surges" back around the impeller. Incredibly inefficent and exposes a improperly sized compressor. We don't want to approach this line.

Next, the YELLOW area. This is the prime efficency island. The compressor runs it's best right here losing the minimum amount of work to heat. Notice the rings extending out from this area. The farther we get from this island, the less efficient we are operating. The best scenario would be to have the torque peak of the engine in this highest efficiency area.

Finally, lets compare the two maps. The TM-12 boost lines are all below the efficiency island, but pretty close to it, which is good. However, notice that the lines are almost off the chart to the right. It means that we are approaching the theoretical maximum ability of the TM-12. Not a bad thing, since it means we are using more of the compressor throughout.

When we move to the TM-15, these maps actually look BETTER. Notice how the midrange of the lines we have cross right through the best efficiency island. However, notice how we are only using about 2/3 of the Y axis... this means it will take more rpm to feel the boost. Pretty much exactly why the TM-12 comes into boost faster and for the small boost levels we all run, is the better choice.

There are other factors such as cost, smaller unit, ease of inventoring one unit, etc. But in the end, for any stock internaled 3.0, the TM-12 is just fine.

http://www.my330i.com/photos/tm12-3.0lchart.jpg

http://www.my330i.com/photos/tm15-3.0lchart.jpg

[beanfree]

Todd: I noticed that in the tm-12 chart as the boost grows it moves towards the efficiency island. So it seems that we could run higher boost levels with the tm12. Is there a maximum boost for the tm12 that is safe for a stock 330 engine?

[clean-m-tech330]

very well said- *high five*


Roughly 10-10.5 before you're going to start reallly having a negative effect on the motor, meaning increased wear and tear on internals-

[MarvelPhx]

Todd: I noticed that in the tm-12 chart as the boost grows it moves towards the efficiency island. So it seems that we could run higher boost levels with the tm12. Is there a maximum boost for the tm12 that is safe for a stock 330 engine?

That is true, however, it also approaches the flow limits of the compressor itself and the strength limitations of the stock engine components. For fun, however, check out this quick addition to the chart I made. The light blue line is 13psi on the same engine, while the purple is 14.7 (a full bar!).

To give you a totally seperate comparison. Look at the orange line I added. That would be a 2.2 liter engine running 15psi. How great would the TM-12 work in that application!?!

very well said- *high five*


Roughly 10-10.5 before you're going to start reallly having a negative effect on the motor, meaning increased wear and tear on internals-

First, thanks!

Second, anything above about 8.5psi and you are risking long-term damage on stock internals with the M54. I've seen first hand what 9.5-10psi did at about 50k boosted miles. Not pretty. To each his own however, it is your engine not mine! :eeps:

http://www.my330i.com/photos/tm12-3.0lchart2.jpg

[beanfree]

Great info. Thanks.