Tech junkies chime in! Intake manifold upgrade...

[Activ3]

Anyone that knows about this, ie bim, pei, twoe46s, oshin, or anyone else, please help me out here...

I purchased an M50 manifold to put on my car, I'll hopefully be doing the install next week. I know it does not have the DISA for the two stage system that the M52tu and M54 have, but do you think this will cause any problem? I know I won't have as much torque at WOT, but I was thinking, the DISA really only controls the amount of air that are let in to the runners, right? It's basically like a second throttle that is automatically controlled and then fully opened once it feels it will make max power at a higher rpm. SO, if I were to just control the gas pedal, ie not going WOT at lower rpm, but instead "rolling" on to the power, it would have the same effect as the DISA, but I should be able to get some extra whp with the larger runners of the M50 manifold right?

I was also thinking, would an upgrade to the 330 injectors make any difference, or would it be overkill on my 328?

[pei330ci]

Just by a supercharger and be done with it! LOL

All this stuff you are looking at like a new head, intake manifold, ect.., only adds fractions of the power you really want.

The DISA flap is a mysterious thing. I remember a thread a couple of years ago where Technic Engineering had a cover machined so they could completely remove the device. The result? Well...you haven't heard anything about it since then have you? The result was negligible for the effort.

Now...I have a completely new manifold to try out myself, and it doesn't have a DISA valve in it. I'll be on the dyno in January to see how it does.

[Activ3]

Just by a supercharger and be done with it! LOL

All this stuff you are looking at like a new head, intake manifold, ect.., only adds fractions of the power you really want.

The DISA flap is a mysterious thing. I remember a thread a couple of years ago where Technic Engineering had a cover machined so they could completely remove the device. The result? Well...you haven't heard anything about it since then have you? The result was negligible for the effort.

Now...I have a completely new manifold to try out myself, and it doesn't have a DISA valve in it. I'll be on the dyno in January to see how it does.
Oh how I feel the need to be different! LOL

Well I figure the mods I'm planning can only benefit an SC system if I do go that route later, so if/when I do go SC, my kit will be making more power than the others that aren't running the extra goodies I am :)

The main advantage I see in the M50 manifold isn't the removal of the DISA, but the larger runners... dyno numbers will be coming by the end of this week hopefully. 172whp and 185wtq currently on a mustang dyno.

Manifold & cams are next... then injectors maybe?

[bimmerboy36]

are you gonna get s/c specific cams? would kind of be a waste to put those in now otherwise, if you plan on s/c later on

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

Doesn't the DISA work to increase the runner velocity at lower air volumes and then open to allow less restrictions at higher volumes (thereby maximizing power throughout)?

I could be competely wrong, but I thought it made the runners effectively have 2 lengths, or or 2 "sizes" persay which gives the car the feeling of switching intake manifolds in the rev band....a generally good thing.

[pei330ci]

Oh how I feel the need to be different! LOL

Well I figure the mods I'm planning can only benefit an SC system if I do go that route later, so if/when I do go SC, my kit will be making more power than the others that aren't running the extra goodies I am :)

The main advantage I see in the M50 manifold isn't the removal of the DISA, but the larger runners... dyno numbers will be coming by the end of this week hopefully. 172whp and 185wtq currently on a mustang dyno.

Manifold & cams are next... then injectors maybe?

Different is good. :D

Forgot to comment on the injectors. Here's a really easy way to figure out if you have the right injectors, or plan for them if you see a future need for them.

Crank HP X 0.5 / 6 = Injector size in Lbs/hr

Some simple references at stock fuel pressure:

180 hp = 15 Lb/hr
200 hp = 16.7 Lb/hr
220 hp = 18.3 Lb/hr
240 hp = 20 Lb/hr
260 hp = 21.7 Lb/hr
280 hp = 23.3 Lb/hr
300 hp = 25 Lb/hr
360 hp = 30 Lb/hr

In the FI world, you can tell pretty easily when people are spewing BS about the power they are making by the size of the injectors they are using and whether or not they are running stock fuel pressures.

[ritos530i]

So its safe to say if you want 540hp that you would need 45 lb/hr injectors.

[Activ3]

Different is good. :D

Forgot to comment on the injectors. Here's a really easy way to figure out if you have the right injectors, or plan for them if you see a future need for them.

Crank HP X 0.5 / 6 = Injector size in Lbs/hr

Some simple references at stock fuel pressure:

180 hp = 15 Lb/hr
200 hp = 16.7 Lb/hr
220 hp = 18.3 Lb/hr
240 hp = 20 Lb/hr
260 hp = 21.7 Lb/hr
280 hp = 23.3 Lb/hr
300 hp = 25 Lb/hr
360 hp = 30 Lb/hr

In the FI world, you can tell pretty easily when people are spewing BS about the power they are making by the size of the injectors they are using and whether or not they are running stock fuel pressures.


Thanks for the info. Is that wheel hp?

[Activ3]

Doesn't the DISA work to increase the runner velocity at lower air volumes and then open to allow less restrictions at higher volumes (thereby maximizing power throughout)?

I could be competely wrong, but I thought it made the runners effectively have 2 lengths, or or 2 "sizes" persay which gives the car the feeling of switching intake manifolds in the rev band....a generally good thing.



Yeah that's pretty much what it does. So down low the runners are smaller for more bottom end power, then it opens up to a larger size at some point to get the top end power. But Tyler, wouldn't you see it as basically a throttle control? At 1/4 throttle at 1500rpm, the DISA would be opened up more than it would if you were at WOT at 1500rpm, right? This is how I see it, so I'm figuring that good throttle control with the M50 manifold (ie. not punching it at low rpm) could make it comparable down low?

My car is already dead up to about 3k, so if this obd I manifold will help out above that, I'm happy. I've already been told by a few people that it won't work well, but I'm stubborn, and since I don't know of anyone that's tried it, I guess it won't hurt to give it a shot.

[Oshin02]

Keep up what your doing. No one really knows if it will work or not until it's done. Instead of having a negative vibe about what to do instead of this, people should encourage, help, and thank you for what you are "experimenting" along with your car. The DISA Valve is there for low end torque, nothing else. I deleted the one in my Zhp (rip), for a force fed application; I have to say it was a real good move. But as for a NA application, I have to give you an educated guess of you losing low end and gaining up top. Keep us updated with this, along with the things you run into for further help. Good luck! Oh, I will also try to dig up a BMW tech guide for your car (something I used for the HomeWork side for the Turbo project) that I know I have laying around somewhere. It will answer some of your questions in more detail and will probably inform you of things that you just don’t see.

-Oshin P.

[pei330ci]

Thanks for the info. Is that wheel hp?

Crank HP. And in technobable, it's called "brake specific fuel consumption". The rate of 0.5 Lbs of fuel per hour per HP is for around 14.7:1 AFR. For forced injection and nitrous :) this is considered too lean. The theoretical approach when calculating for Forced Induction is to use 0.6-0.7 Lbs of fuel per hour per HP being made.

Yeah that's pretty much what it does. So down low the runners are smaller for more bottom end power, then it opens up to a larger size at some point to get the top end power. But Tyler, wouldn't you see it as basically a throttle control? At 1/4 throttle at 1500rpm, the DISA would be opened up more than it would if you were at WOT at 1500rpm, right? This is how I see it, so I'm figuring that good throttle control with the M50 manifold (ie. not punching it at low rpm) could make it comparable down low?

My car is already dead up to about 3k, so if this obd I manifold will help out above that, I'm happy. I've already been told by a few people that it won't work well, but I'm stubborn, and since I don't know of anyone that's tried it, I guess it won't hurt to give it a shot.

The DISA flap opens at the same time as the Vanos rotates the cams, which is at 4250 RPM. (This is on the M54B30) I think you've got a great attitude, give it a shot!

Just a comment about getting your cylinder head done: Have it done once, and the best that you can afford. Don't cheap out on this, as it's the most important part of your engine. The ironic part is that the labor and parts to pull the head and re-install it will equal what most stage 1 heads cost.

Keep up what your doing. No one really knows if it will work or not until it's done. Instead of having a negative vibe about what to do instead of this, people should encourage, help, and thank you for what you are "experimenting" along with your car. The DISA Valve is there for low end torque, nothing else. I deleted the one in my Zhp (rip), for a force fed application; I have to say it was a real good move. But as for a NA application, I have to give you an educated guess of you losing low end and gaining up top. Keep us updated with this, along with the things you run into for further help. Good luck! Oh, I will also try to dig up a BMW tech guide for your car (something I used for the HomeWork side for the Turbo project) that I know I have laying around somewhere. It will answer some of your questions in more detail and will probably inform you of things that you just don’t see.

-Oshin P.

Oshin,

I've volenteered a lot of information to Active3 on the forums and via PM. I'm in no way discouraging his optimism and curiousity. My preaching about FI use is logical, but ironic in that I'm actually an advocate of N/A. It's great to see a true pioneer like yourself encouraging people to take the plung and play with their cars.

I'm really sorry about what happened to your car, but I'm sure you've got a lot of knowledge to share with regard to the build process. I for one look forward to hearing more of your exploits.

Adam

[Activ3]

Keep up what your doing. No one really knows if it will work or not until it's done. Instead of having a negative vibe about what to do instead of this, people should encourage, help, and thank you for what you are "experimenting" along with your car. The DISA Valve is there for low end torque, nothing else. I deleted the one in my Zhp (rip), for a force fed application; I have to say it was a real good move. But as for a NA application, I have to give you an educated guess of you losing low end and gaining up top. Keep us updated with this, along with the things you run into for further help. Good luck! Oh, I will also try to dig up a BMW tech guide for your car (something I used for the HomeWork side for the Turbo project) that I know I have laying around somewhere. It will answer some of your questions in more detail and will probably inform you of things that you just don’t see.

-Oshin P.


Thanks for the info!

I've already modified the manifold to for the regular OBDII conversion, including getting an obdI fuel rail and a plate for the throttle body. I just need to thread my obdII temp sensor so it can screw into the manifold. I'll also probably have to build a new intake, and maybe extend my throttle cable since the throttle body will now sit up top.

If you can find that tech guide it'd be a big help as well :)

[Activ3]

Crank HP. And in technobable, it's called "brake specific fuel consumption". The rate of 0.5 Lbs of fuel per hour per HP is for around 14.7:1 AFR. For forced injection and nitrous :) this is considered too lean. The theoretical approach when calculating for Forced Induction is to use 0.6-0.7 Lbs of fuel per hour per HP being made.



The DISA flap opens at the same time as the Vanos rotates the cams, which is at 4250 RPM. (This is on the M54B30) I think you've got a great attitude, give it a shot!

Just a comment about getting your cylinder head done: Have it done once, and the best that you can afford. Don't cheap out on this, as it's the most important part of your engine. The ironic part is that the labor and parts to pull the head and re-install it will equal what most stage 1 heads cost.



Oshin,

I've volenteered a lot of information to Active3 on the forums and via PM. I'm in no way discouraging his optimism and curiousity. My preaching about FI use is logical, but ironic in that I'm actually an advocate of N/A. It's great to see a true pioneer like yourself encouraging people to take the plung and play with their cars.

I'm really sorry about what happened to your car, but I'm sure you've got a lot of knowledge to share with regard to the build process. I for one look forward to hearing more of your exploits.

Adam



4250rpm... thats not too bad.

I don't have cams yet, but when I do get them, I'm probably going to shave my head so I can get up to 11.5:1 or so. This should still be safe for boost if I decide to SC later...

Thanks again for the info. I'll hopefully have it installed and dyno'd by the end of next week.

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

Yeah that's pretty much what it does. So down low the runners are smaller for more bottom end power, then it opens up to a larger size at some point to get the top end power. But Tyler, wouldn't you see it as basically a throttle control? At 1/4 throttle at 1500rpm, the DISA would be opened up more than it would if you were at WOT at 1500rpm, right? This is how I see it, so I'm figuring that good throttle control with the M50 manifold (ie. not punching it at low rpm) could make it comparable down low?

My car is already dead up to about 3k, so if this obd I manifold will help out above that, I'm happy. I've already been told by a few people that it won't work well, but I'm stubborn, and since I don't know of anyone that's tried it, I guess it won't hurt to give it a shot.Don't take what I'm posting as discouragement - > I'm curious as well, but think about it some.

The DISA, to my knowledge isn't acting like a throttle body but is actually changing the runners - THAT would be much more benfitial than a throttle body. However -> I have the M50 over an M52 on my car, and so I can speak from a hair of experience. The car is slower around town. Way slower from a dig. I worked my @ss off to get a 2.2 60' time at the track and was launching at almost 4,000 RPM's to get that, it still bogged and showed in my 300'. I trap with E36 M3's (+ or -) but they pull on me the entire track (gearing/torque). I think with an M52 manifold my car would be faster -> and because I'm decent with a launch I could shave a couple tenths off.

I say go for it, but don't have your hopes up. The top end is amazing - my car is WAY faster on the highway, but only above 4500 RPM's - > which gets old really fast.

[MarvelPhx]

The DISA valve has only two positions, open and closed. It is not controlled to be variable anywhere in between. When rpms are under around 4100 rpm, it is forced closed by a vacuum accumulator solenoid triggered by DME signal. After 4k, it is released and springs open.

Being closed below 4100 rpm allows the incoming air to take a longer runner path to the head to help with torque creation by increased velocity. When the DME signal is removed at roughly 4.1k rpm (depends on temperature), it snaps open (which causes that infamous tiny dip at 4.1k on almost every M54 dyno) and the incoming air then takes a shorter runner path to help create horsepower by increased air volume.

BMW put it there for a reason, but people who have removed it mostly did so to try and remedy the random 4-5k rpm resonance valve power loss issues on MS45.

With NA, I can't see how removing it would be beneficial.

As for FI: Centrifugals could still benefit from the low end torque benefit of the DISA because they are just starting to tickle boost at 4k rpm when it switches to HP mode. Twin Screws are irrelevant since it replaces the entire stock manifold anyway, thereby removing the DISA valve entirely.

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

The DISA valve has only two positions, open and closed. It is not controlled to be variable anywhere in between. When rpms are under around 4100 rpm, it is forced closed by a vacuum accumulator solenoid triggered by DME signal. After 4k, it is released and springs open.

Being closed below 4100 rpm allows the incoming air to take a longer runner path to the head to help with torque creation by increased velocity. When the DME signal is removed at roughly 4.1k rpm (depends on temperature), it snaps open (which causes that infamous tiny dip at 4.1k on almost every M54 dyno) and the incoming air then takes a shorter runner path to help create horsepower by increased air volume.

BMW put it there for a reason, but people who have removed it mostly did so to try and remedy the random 4-5k rpm resonance valve power loss issues on MS45.

With NA, I can't see how removing it would be beneficial.

As for FI: Centrifugals could still benefit from the low end torque benefit of the DISA because they are just starting to tickle boost at 4k rpm when it switches to HP mode. Twin Screws are irrelevant since it replaces the entire stock manifold anyway, thereby removing the DISA valve entirely.

Thats exactly what I was thinking - the M50 manifold may flow differently though in the upper band and there could be benefits seen because of that.

[Activ3]

As for FI: Centrifugals could still benefit from the low end torque benefit of the DISA because they are just starting to tickle boost at 4k rpm when it switches to HP mode. Twin Screws are irrelevant since it replaces the entire stock manifold anyway, thereby removing the DISA valve entirely.



what about a GT35? :eeps:

I'm going to the track today so I can run one last time before I change up my motor. Previous best time was 14.7 @ 90mph, 2.05 60' time. It's a lot cooler now (~65 degrees F in comparison to last times ~95) so maybe that will help.

[stimpee]

Ask Karl if he will sell you one of the billet aluminum custom doohickeys for the twin screw kit that allows the obdII temp sensor to snap into an OBDI threaded hole. The TS manifold is threaded and can either have the OBDI temp sensor screwed into the threads, or you use this aluminum adapter that I designed to screw into the threads, and then the OBDII temp sensor snaps directly in, and seals as well!

Steve

[Activ3]

Ask Karl if he will sell you one of the billet aluminum custom doohickeys for the twin screw kit that allows the obdII temp sensor to snap into an OBDI threaded hole. The TS manifold is threaded and can either have the OBDI temp sensor screwed into the threads, or you use this aluminum adapter that I designed to screw into the threads, and then the OBDII temp sensor snaps directly in, and seals as well!

Steve
Karl is my uncle :D

He said they can just mod this sensor in a few mins and it will screw right in.

[Activ3]

OK, so I tried today.

Couldn't be done for a few reasons, mainly because there are other designs in the e46 head that require modifications to it or the manifold for it to fit and run. I didn't feel like machining my head or welding it or anything, especially for something I'm unsure of. SO, no manifold for now :(

However, I may try and shave the head soon :eeps:

[stimpee]

Karl is my uncle :D

He said they can just mod this sensor in a few mins and it will screw right in.


Is this Jonathan? Or someone else? Have we met?

:hi:

In any case, get the doohickey if you try to get it to work. The doohickey is WAY cooler than modding the sensor!!!

:D

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

David :eeps:

[stimpee]

I guess we havent met then! Or I dont remember it!

:D

[Activ3]

I guess we havent met then! Or I dont remember it!

:D
Yea I've heard lots about you but I don't think we've ever met yet. :)

[stimpee]

Yea I've heard lots about you but I don't think we've ever met yet. :)


Uh oh.

All bad I am sure! :thumbsup:

I hopefully will be down in the next few months!

Steve

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

Uh oh.

All bad I am sure! :thumbsup:

I hopefully will be down in the next few months!

Steve
You and Keith still talking about making a kit for his new car :eeps:

[stimpee]

It is just idle chit-chat at this point.

[Tyler@UniqueDesign]

It is just idle chit-chat at this point.

:( I was looking forward to seeing progress.

I love that kind of stuff.