Custom piggyback tuned e46 m3 now its turbo time

[HiRide]

thats basically it...

i started the thread at m3forum.com

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=186228

I custom tuned NA on 93 octane and got 321 RWHP and 263 RWTQ

but now I can use the internal map sensor to do fuel and ignition in real time based on air flow for a turbo. I am also going to be working with some others who will be offering DME support for the tuning and parts fabrication. So we will have vanos tuning off of the DME as well knock control, idle, redline, throttle mapping, etc...

Hopefully we'll see some good numbers.

[DLSJ5]

Awesome to see! Good luck with it.

[HiRide]

Thanks!

I really hope we can keep the cost low. I am shooting for $10K or less installed and tuned.

[Activ3]

Good luck! Keep us updated :hi:

[MSpired]

Nice! Looking forward to seeing the build and final setup.

[HiRide]

thanks guys!

I will definitely be keeping everyone posted as we start moving forward. Right now we have to start designing and fabricating the turbo and intake manifold. That will take a while, but after that its pretty much bolt together and tune!

At least for me, the other guys still want to create a full DME only turbo setup. I think that will be great, but I like the one-off custom tunable setup. And the piggyback gives me that.

[schulmann]

What piggy back do you use ?
I have used Civinco in the past.

[HiRide]

Unfortunately I cant go into that yet. but once i get everything finalized I will go into all the details.

This system is very similar to a civinco, however I believe the civinco does not use the stock fuel and ignition tables for a base.

so Civinco tables : "0" = "0"
my piggyback tables : "0" = 0 change from stock map

Civinco : "10" = 10 degrees timing
my piggyback: "10" = 10 more degrees over stock

correct me if I am wrong. I do like that idea as it removes the problems of STFT and LTFT corrections. However, it also suffers from not being able to adjust its fuel trim from intake air temp. I do know they have a newer model out now that includes an intake air temp system.

It seems to be a mostly Volvo setup, but accomplishes the same goal. Just link Civinco is used on a lot of volvo's and has plug and play setups for common appliations, and Greddy e-manage ultimate is used on **** and has plug and play applications, I want to see this used on BMW's and hopefully some plug and play applications.

The major problem is that at the end of the day you cant touch the vanos and that is a big part of making power and tuning BMW motors. (the ones that have it of course)

[HPF Chris]

thats basically it...

i started the thread at m3forum.com

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=186228

I custom tuned NA on 93 octane and got 321 RWHP and 263 RWTQ

but now I can use the internal map sensor to do fuel and ignition in real time based on air flow for a turbo. I am also going to be working with some others who will be offering DME support for the tuning and parts fabrication. So we will have vanos tuning off of the DME as well knock control, idle, redline, throttle mapping, etc...

Hopefully we'll see some good numbers.

Congrats Hride. That's quite an accomplishment already. I look forward to hearing more about your turbo build.

Take care,
Chris.

[schulmann]

Civinco is very versatile. You can do a lot of things. You can adjust also the AFR in function of the intake temp. However it takes time to program the BIOS. I used it on Forced Induction Viper. It is a basic tool easy to install and your car remains OBD compliant. A lot of time and money were invested to develop a viable software for the Vipers. Now nearly 95% of all modified Viper use Civinco. It can also disable the AFR protection (14.6) during wide open throttle. New car will maintain 14.6 even during light acceleration.

AEM is a great tool for advanced users. But it is expensive for a BMW. I even don't know if it is available for BMW.

So I was looking for a piggy back for my BMW. I am sure there is a big interest on the market for this time of tool. Just somebody has to put money and time to develop it. If you put $100000 into the development I am sure you will be able to recover it. For Vipers around 3000 units were sold from Civinco. BMWs have larger market share.

From personnal point of view I don't care if it is Civinco or AEM or another tool. I just want to customize my own programs for my BMW.


Take this: I had a 800hp Viper making 30mi/g on highway !!!
Conversely it was making 5mi/gl during racing ! I put 35000min on this car.


VANOS is a big challange for everybody. 2008 Vipers have now that feature too. The issue is mainly timing and AFR. I would not play with valve timing. Though it is interesting for those who hunt for 0.1sec on a race track. For street users VANOS programming is too advanced.

[HiRide]

hey Chris! Thanks. I will be posting up everything as I go.

Yeah, the civinco is actually similarly priced to the unit I am using but its difficult for a person like me with an income like mine to branch too far out to try to something totally new and different. the system I am using has been used on so many BMW's that I felt somewhat safe even though it had never been tried on an M3 to my knowledge.

That Viper must have been sick. I have been in love with vipers since 1989!! A lot of people dont give them alot of credit but they have the ability to make monster power and have proven themselves on road courses as well!! Team Oreca FTW!!!!

Yeah the new 08's will be making 600 horses and the valve timing system is really amazing. I like how they did the two piece camshaft with one peice inside the other so that intake and exhaust can move separately of eachother. At least i think thats how they did it... They managed to integrate variable valve timing without doing major redesigning of the powerplant.

The only thing I would like to see is higher stock numbers. That motor is capable of so much, with over 8 litres they could make some serious numbers if they wanted to. But I guess the car still has to be daily drive-able and reliable.

Vanos is actually very helpful at picking up alot more than just a second. advanced cam timing = more HP up top, retarded cam timing = more torque down low. With the Dual Stepless Vanos, the motor can have a more retarded cam timing at low air flow levels, and then have advanced cam timing at higher air flow levels effectively creating the best of both worlds.

For a turbo car this means quick spool along with high flow. on the track it means high torque for low RPM conditions and corner exiting and high HP at WOT straightaways.

Actually this is one of the main reasons I would still prefer an HPF kit or, if I had the money, a standalone setup with vanos control. I am a vanos fanatic, i have been backing up Chris for a while because I know the affect a properly tuned variable valve timing system can have on a motor. On top of that the Dual vanos allows separate control of intake and exhaust timing to further assist internal cylinder conditions for max power at all times.

The programming, however, is way too advanced for someone to just slap the car on a dyno and just start playing around. Unlike fuel and timing, dual vanos is much more difficult to create a pattern with. You could spend 48 hours straight on the dyno trying to perfect the timing. And then you have to go back and play with fuel and timing as the airflow characteristics would then change.

I guess you would have tune fuel first, then timing, then vanos, then fuel, then timing, and so on and so forth. Not that the AFR's would be that far off but if you can effectively create more air in the system through vanos tuning you would end up leaning out the mixture and then need to readjust timing to correspond with the new valve timing.

The AFR protection is the one thing i would have liked to see with this unit, but as far as the M3 is concerned there is no problem. the stock AFR's are all over the place and I havent seen any problems with STFT and LTFT yet. To be honest, there is already a 600RWHP Euro MZ3 Coupe with the euro S50 and dual vanos and its running strong so I am not worried.

[DLSJ5]

Any updates on this?

[HiRide]

Everyone involved will be getting together in a few weeks to lay out a plan since I got into the picture.

They already have a fabricator they are going to use and have offered to let me use the design for my own setup.

We do have a turbo header that is designed for the S54, we may decide to use this as a template which would speed up the process greatly and reduce costs.

For b0ki and my setup, the piggyback will be used alone first without any DME tuning. Right now I have a stock DME and b0ki has the D/A race chip. he may need to have that cleared out. I do want to see if he is up to doing an N/A like mine over his chip to see if he makes more power since the chip has some vanos tuning in it.

The others will continue working on their DME-only setup. I am however limited to their time line with the parts. Since they are doing the designing and paying the initial design costs, its their show.

Once we all get a chance to sit down and talk, we will all have a better idea of what is possible, whats not, and how long it will take.

I am estimating that by this time next year, if not a little sooner, we will have the turbo setups completed.

We will also be discussing the possibility of putting together a kit and/or providing parts for people to build their own kits with.

I think with a turbo manifold, intake manifold, pipe kit, and the piggyback, anyone can build a turbo setup on their own.

After that, the possibilities are endless. I am also looking into using the piggyback for other applications, not just on the e46 m3.

This is also a good tool for obdII e36 m3's, we may be doing a remote turbo on a '91 850, we may also do one on a 740, and I would like to try an SC setup on an e46 M3.

Eventually I also want to provide something of a piggyback upgrade to current SC kits. Allowing people who already have AA, VFE, and ESS SC kits to use the piggyback to have real-time tunes, race fuel tunes, meth injection, nitrous, intercooler spray, etc all controlled by one unit.

Right now, I am just watching the short and long term fuel trims to make sure they dont cause any problems. It seems that the car goes into open loop pretty quickly, and may only closed loop for idle and not even cruise control. We leaned out my cruising speeds to save fuel and so far there has been no fuel added. While my AFR gauge is broken, my EGT is still showing around 200 degrees hotter than normal under those circumstances.

Right now, I have 750cc low-impedance injectors and a 255lb/hr walbro fuel pump waiting to go in. I will be picking up a fuel pressure reg as well, and might go ahead and pick out a meth injection system I like so that we can integrate it into the setup prior to fabrication, possibly into the intake manifold. I have decided to go with a GT37 turbo, tial 44mm wastegate, probably a tial blow-off..?, and a 900CFM intercooler (bar/plate) from wherever the best price is.

I dont know for sure, but I am hoping that the turbo manifold we have now keeps the turbo high enough for a gravity drain into the oil pan, which it should, but if not, I know which pump I will use.

So now, its just a matter of time until the parts are designed and fabricated.

[YellowBird330]

Your Amazing bro^

[HiRide]

Thanks man, I appreciate it!

[HiRide]

Hey, so I just wanted to update:

We are having a meeting with all the teams involved in this project next wednesday, December 19th. I will get a chance to meet the fabricators and give them the turbo manifold we plan to use as a template. We will be discussing the designs of the intake manifold and turbo manifold as well as the pieces we want to use for the kits.

We are not going to all build the same exact setup, but we want to make sure that all of our options fit nicely using the turbo manifold, intake manifold, and piping.

For b0ki and I, the system will probably consist of a GT37 turbo, 900CFM bar/plate intercooler, tial 44mm wastegate, and probably a tial blowoff. The fuel system will be a Walbro 255 lb/hr inline fuel pump and 750CC low impedance injectors. We will also be running methanol injection and a nitrous intercooler spray. And of course ARP head studs.

With this setup on stock internals and compression we will be looking to make around 550RWHP on methanol at around 10-11 psi and 600 RWHP with VP 109 unleaded race fuel and methanol and around 13 psi. These are just estimates though and where I would like the car to be when we're done.