What's cool about the HPF Stage 1-3 Intercoolers

[HPF Chris]

Today, as John was installing the intercooler on Ardika's car, I thought I would mention a few of our design parameters when we designed the intercooling system that goes into every one of our stage 1, 2 and 3 turbo systems.

#1) We were able to retain the factory crash support (which I see "missing" on some E46 M3s). This may seem insignificant, but I felt it was an absolute must because at high speeds the last thing you want to risk is your life by not having a front crash support.

#2) We used an extremely dense bar-n-plate intercooler core where each cooling fin is offset from the next maximizing cooling capability. If you hold up many intercooler cores in the air and look down the length of them (or across them from front to back), you will be able to see light at the other side. Not these. You’ll see about 3 or 4 fins deep and then that’s it. The more the fins are offset, the more the air touches these fins and cools the charge.

#3) We mounted the intercooler as close to the crash support as possible and designed it such that the entire grill area (except the HPF lettering on the IC) is filled with core (not end tanks - like on most FMIC's), so the airflow across the intercooler is maximized for the size of the bumper opening.

#4) We designed the intercooler core from the ground up using our own custom solidworks designed end-tanks where entry and exit angles as well as inlet and oulet placement are optimized. This was done so nearly all of the pressurized air going through the intercooler is flowing through the core at a height where the outside air-flow is coming into the engine, not below the air damn or above.

#5) We use "hump" hoses that are literally 5-ply silicon then clamp them down with t-bolt clamps so that IC couplers will never blow off. The “hump” hoses allow the engine to rock without pulling on the coupler where it is secured, and the 5-ply silicon allows the t-bolt to fully secure the coupler without the coupler slipping out the side.

#6) Each intercooler is precisely secured in 4 separate locations such that it literally acts as a second crash support for extra safety. It is mounted so securely that a person can literally hang from it as shown in the pictures below.

These intercoolers come with every one of our stage 1, 2 and 3 turbo systems. If you have any other questions about them, feel free to let me know.

Take care,
Chris.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/ardika/IntercoolerHang1.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/ardika/IntercoolerHang2.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/ardika/IntercoolerHang3.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/images/products/horsepowerfreaks/HPF_M3_FMIC_Pipes.jpg

[LagunaBlau///M3]

you guys need to stop monkeying around and get back to work. :rofl::rofl:


j/k the setup looks nice. :thumbsup:

[hamann330ci]

Wow.. it comes fully polished too! I can't wait to see these on Turbo'd 330s

[T330]

wow nice work

[jtrejo]

can you get the intercoolers in black for somewhat stealth look? or will that mess with effeciency of cooling?

[HPF Chris]

can you get the intercoolers in black for somewhat stealth look? or will that mess with effeciency of cooling?

Yes and No. The end tanks are cast aluminum and don't come out as nice powdercoated black. However... We have welded end tanks that come out real nice when anodized black. I don't think there will be much of a power difference.


you guys need to stop monkeying around and get back to work.
j/k the setup looks nice.


Thanks. :)

Chris.

[jetblack335i]

The structural integrity seems really awesome I just hope the customer was cool with it

[HPF Chris]

The structural integrity seems really awesome I just hope the customer was cool with it

Thanks. If a customer isn't cool with us testing the structural integrity of our intercooler on their car, then they probably aren't going to be cool with us pulling the engine, tranny, drivetrain and rear-end out of their car, tearing the motor down, rebuilding the motor with HPF spec'd components, increasing the structural integrity of their rear subframe, re-installing the new motor, tranny, drivetrain and rear-end, and adding our complete turbo system, gauges, engine management system and HPF clutch, then top top it off, running 25 pounds of boost through their newly built HPF motor. :)

Here's a link to his full build.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=536248

[LagunaBlau///M3]

what size turbo is making this 25psi? T76?

[HPF Chris]

what size turbo is making this 25psi? T76?

Here's a link to the build...

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=536248

It's a Precision 74GTS dual ball-bearing.

[TaZaM3]

Chris whats the A/R on your 74?

[HPF Chris]

Chris whats the A/R on your 74?

We're doing a fairly standard .81 A/R. The goal of the stage 3 kit is to be a Supra and bike killer, but still be streetable. I think with this turbo and our 4 map setup, we'll have some really nice daily driveable and streetable power numbers. 800rwhp is a lot for the road, and this kit is designed to be right around that #. :)

Chris.

[azjimi]

The goal of the stage 3 kit is to be a Supra and bike killer, but still be streetable.
Chris.

Don't get me wrong, I admire what you are doing, but the only bikes you are going to be killing from a dig are some Harleys. M3's, regardless of HP, simply don't have the traction to come anywhere near a modern STOCK sportbike of any displacement in the 1/4 mile. I have never seen any 30-130 times for a bike, so I have no idea about that....I'm just talking a drag race between two street vehicles. Don't forget that even stock 600's run in the 10's and some liter bikes in the high 9's. When an HPF car beats those times, even w/drag radials that really aren't street tires, I'll be glad to be proven wrong.

[TaZaM3]

We're doing a fairly standard .81 A/R. The goal of the stage 3 kit is to be a Supra and bike killer, but still be streetable. I think with this turbo and our 4 map setup, we'll have some really nice daily driveable and streetable power numbers. 800rwhp is a lot for the road, and this kit is designed to be right around that #. :)

Chris.

Nice, not too big not too small. Im very curious as to what numbers it will make at what psi.

[ST06M3]

Don't get me wrong, I admire what you are doing, but the only bikes you are going to be killing from a dig are some Harleys. M3's, regardless of HP, simply don't have the traction to come anywhere near a modern STOCK sportbike of any displacement in the 1/4 mile. I have never seen any 30-130 times for a bike, so I have no idea about that....I'm just talking a drag race between two street vehicles. Don't forget that even stock 600's run in the 10's and some liter bikes in the high 9's. When an HPF car beats those times, even w/drag radials that really aren't street tires, I'll be glad to be proven wrong.

I dont have any proof but I raced a Triumph Sports Bike (600cc) class from about 30mph and I beat him by about 2 CL's. I was running race fuel because I had just finished dyno'ing at DynoComp. The guy lives down the street from me.

[azjimi]

I dont have any proof but I raced a Triumph Sports Bike (600cc) class from about 30mph and I beat him by about 2 CL's. I was running race fuel because I had just finished dyno'ing at DynoComp. The guy lives down the street from me.

Your word is good w/me, Jim. Like I said, I don't really know how bikes will do from 30 mph, but if you only beat a Triumph 600 (not the fastest of the 600's) by 2 CL's on race gas, that means any of the Japanese liter bikes would destroy you from 30. Of course I believe Chris is talking about stage 3 when he uses the term "bike killer" & you are (temporarily) @stage 1.

[///M3Turk]

wow nice job

[SPDu4ea]

Who races bikes from a dig?

[azjimi]

Who races bikes from a dig?

People who like to lose?

[HPF Chris]

I'd rather not get into the bike vs car debate, but I've beat "plenty" of bikes in my Supra from a 60mph roll. Any 800rwhp 6-spd car will beat "most" street bikes from a 60-160mph race. Now there are always exceptions, and there are street bikes with in excess of 450rwhp!!! But to think that an 800rwhp car will lose to a factory 600cc street bike from a 60mph roll just isn't going to happen.

Once the weather gets better up here, I'll run a bunch of street bikes (600cc to 1200cc) in our M3 and video tape the races.

Chris.

[russ330]

You guys seriously run an amazing shop. The attention to detail and craftsman ship you display never ceases to impress. :bow:

[pei330ci]

Chris,

You may have just pioneered a fad where people hanging off of various components to illustrate their strength. :D

I'm going to check out my mirrors on the lift...

[azjimi]

I'd rather not get into the bike vs car debate, but I've beat "plenty" of bikes in my Supra from a 60mph roll. Any 800rwhp 6-spd car will beat "most" street bikes from a 60-160mph race. Now there are always exceptions, and there are street bikes with in excess of 450rwhp!!! But to think that an 800rwhp car will lose to a factory 600cc street bike from a 60mph roll just isn't going to happen.

Once the weather gets better up here, I'll run a bunch of street bikes (600cc to 1200cc) in our M3 and video tape the races.
Chris.

Since you didn't bother to read my post about bikes, I thought I'd repost it below. The purpose of my original post was to clarify the term "bike killer", which I feel you use rather loosely. To summarize, I said you won't be killing any STOCK sportbikes in the 1/4 mile & that I didn't know about from 30 mph. I never mentioned modified sportbikes or runs from 60-160. Anybody who knows anything about bikes knows that the higher the starting & ending speeds, the less of an advantage the bike has. I would NEVER argue that a stock sportbike would beat an 800hp Supra (or even a 600hp M3) from 60-160 because I don't have either the experience or facts to back it up.

ORIGINAL POST:
Don't get me wrong, I admire what you are doing, but the only bikes you are going to be killing from a dig are some Harleys. M3's, regardless of HP, simply don't have the traction to come anywhere near a modern STOCK sportbike of any displacement in the 1/4 mile. I have never seen any 30-130 times for a bike, so I have no idea about that....I'm just talking a drag race between two street vehicles. Don't forget that even stock 600's run in the 10's and some liter bikes in the high 9's. When an HPF car beats those times, even w/drag radials that really aren't street tires, I'll be glad to be proven wrong.

[TaZaM3]

Who races bikes from a dig?

Ill race a bike from a dig if only we can go up to say 160 or so.

[2003330i]

the way the new 1000's are there is not to many cars on the road that can beat them. i would be a lil nervous about racing tazaa car from a roll but not a dig. take my chances with the launch

[Adam@Euro-Spec]

:drool: I am amazed by your work and detail every post, only if I had money and you guys had a 325 kit :drool: :thumbsup: I can't wait to see your widebody at bimmerfest!

[HPF Chris]

I am amazed by your work and detail every post, only if I had money and you guys had a 325 kit I can't wait to see your widebody at bimmerfest!


Thanks Adam.... Definitely stop by at Bimmerfest.

To summarize, I said you won't be killing any STOCK sportbikes in the 1/4 mile & that I didn't know about from 30 mph.

An 800rwhp E46 M3 can run mid 9's in the 1/4 mile with good traction and a good driver. A 600rwhp E46 M3 can run mid 10's in the 1/4 mile with good traction and a good driver.

When I go to the track, I rarely see "stock" sport-bikes run what they're advertised to run anyway. On the street with my Supra, I just tear them up. At the track, I generally keep up with the "modified" ones just fine with 1.42 60fts and mid 9 second passes.

Most people have this illusive idea that sport bikes are untouchable. My reference to "bike killer" doesn't mean "will beat all bikes on the planet". It means with 600-800rwhp you can beat bikes. No matter how fast you are there's always someone faster. And depending on the race parameters, the victor can certainly be different. When you're riding on a bike, you think it's amazingly fast because of the way it feels, but when you get passed at 140mph by a serious street car, you lose that amazingly fast feeling real quick.

I have friends with bikes of all sizes that race all the time. I will take video footage to show exactly which stages of our kits beat which sport bikes.


You guys seriously run an amazing shop. The attention to detail and craftsman ship you display never ceases to impress.


Thanks. :)

Take care,
Chris.

[LagunaBlau///M3]

An 800rwhp E46 M3 can run mid 9's in the 1/4 mile with good traction and a good driver. A 600rwhp E46 M3 can run mid 10's in the 1/4 mile with good traction and a good driver.


That is what ive been waiting to read!!! :drool:

[azjimi]

An 800rwhp E46 M3 can run mid 9's in the 1/4 mile with good traction and a good driver. A 600rwhp E46 M3 can run mid 10's in the 1/4 mile with good traction and a good driver.

When I go to the track, I rarely see "stock" sport-bikes run what they're advertised to run anyway. On the street with my Supra, I just tear them up. At the track, I generally keep up with the "modified" ones just fine with 1.42 60fts and mid 9 second passes.

Most people have this illusive idea that sport bikes are untouchable. My reference to "bike killer" doesn't mean "will beat all bikes on the planet". It means with 600-800rwhp you can beat bikes. No matter how fast you are there's always someone faster. And depending on the race parameters, the victor can certainly be different. When you're riding on a bike, you think it's amazingly fast because of the way it feels, but when you get passed at 140mph by a serious street car, you lose that amazingly fast feeling real quick.

I have friends with bikes of all sizes that race all the time. I will take video footage to show exactly which stages of our kits beat which sport bikes.


Well, not a single other person has disputed anything you've said, so you must be right. You win.

[powder]

#2) We used an extremely dense bar-n-plate intercooler core where each cooling fin is offset from the next maximizing cooling capability. If you hold up many intercooler cores in the air and look down the length of them (or across them from front to back), you will be able to see light at the other side. Not these. You***8217;ll see about 3 or 4 fins deep and then that***8217;s it. The more the fins are offset, the more the air touches these fins and cools the charge.


#4) We designed the intercooler core from the ground up using our own custom solidworks designed end-tanks where entry and exit angles as well as inlet and oulet placement are optimized. This was done so nearly all of the pressurized air going through the intercooler is flowing through the core at a height where the outside air-flow is coming into the engine, not below the air damn or above.


I'm not sure I would advertise that. Intercoolers work by having airflow across them - the temperature drop across the intercooler (air inlet temp vs. air outlet temp) is (nonlinearly) related to air flow across these fins. You are creating huge amounts of pressure, not flow. Having stagnant air in the fins will do little for keeping the intake temps down. Thats not to say that it doesn't work at all, only that it is inefficient.

As for #4 , what were the angles optimized for? Maximum flow rate (of intake air)? Maximum velocity (of intake air)? Minimum pressure drop across the intercooler? These would all yield different designs...Again, not trying to say what you have won't/doesn't work.

Just trying to up the intelligence level on the board to prevent the spreading of misinformation.

[azjimi]

Just trying to up the intelligence level on the board to prevent the spreading of misinformation.

A worthy cause for sure...but it's been tried before & not always met w/open arms.

[HPF Chris]

I'm not sure I would advertise that. Intercoolers work by having airflow across them - the temperature drop across the intercooler (air inlet temp vs. air outlet temp) is (nonlinearly) related to air flow across these fins. You are creating huge amounts of pressure, not flow. Having stagnant air in the fins will do little for keeping the intake temps down. Thats not to say that it doesn't work at all, only that it is inefficient.

As for #4 , what were the angles optimized for? Maximum flow rate (of intake air)? Maximum velocity (of intake air)? Minimum pressure drop across the intercooler? These would all yield different designs...Again, not trying to say what you have won't/doesn't work.

Just trying to up the intelligence level on the board to prevent the spreading of misinformation.

Many intercoolers simply make a channel for the air to flow through (i.e. the fins are all lined up). When you look down the core, you can see straight through it. With these cores, pressure drop across the core may be "slightly" less, but the cooling capacity is diminished as many of the air molecules go straight down the core without coming remotely close to the cooling fins. When each fin is offset from the next, the air molecules get much closer to the fins and for the short duration of their trip this turbulence results in a cooler air charge.

The question about #4, you'll probably notice the reason for this statement by looking at most of the other intercooler designs out there. In most intercooler kits, the air enters and exits at the bottom of the core which can be as much as 12" below the top of the core. The vast majority of the air flowing is going through the core happens at the height of these entry and exit points. The extra volume above creates a much larger pressure drop across the core and due to it's location does considerably less to cool the air charge. To make matters worse, most intercooler kits we've seen have the entry and exit "below" the air damn in the front bumper. The best intercooler designs have the most air flowing through the intercooler where the cross section of outside air is flowing in. Our intercooler literally maximizes this area in all 3 dimensions. The top of the core is 1/2" above the top of the air damn, the bottom is 1/2" below the bottom, the sides are pushed all the way to the edges of the air damn, and we've increased the thickness to a full 4" deep to maximize the space between the front bumper and the intercooler. To increase efficiency even further, we've moved the inlets and outlets to a height that allows nearly all of the air to flow down the center of the core (right down the center of the air damn).

We've done a lot of testing on inlet air temps (as they're so important to power and to pre-ignition), and in many cases, we've gotten them down to near ambient temperature. Our turbo kits have been able to lay down a significant amount of power at very low boost levels with very low intake air temps. Designing an intercooler from the ground up for a particular application to exacting specifications can have a definite advantage over purchasing the standard "Chinese" off the shelf intercooler and welding brackets on it to make it fit.

Take care,
Chris.

[BartenderPlease]

Wow, good work

:drool:

[HPF Chris]

There are plenty of car vs bikes races (not all ending the same as the one in this video), but the video below is how my Supra was against most bikes (when I had around 750 or so rwhp)... The car in this video has a 2JZ-GTE in it, and I believe is tuned to around 700+rwhp, against a ZX10 1000rr.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=id31FUELipk

Chris.

[powder]

Many intercoolers simply make a channel for the air to flow through (i.e. the fins are all lined up). When you look down the core, you can see straight through it. With these cores, pressure drop across the core may be "slightly" less, but the cooling capacity is diminished as many of the air molecules go straight down the core without coming remotely close to the cooling fins. When each fin is offset from the next, the air molecules get much closer to the fins and for the short duration of their trip this turbulence results in a cooler air charge.


I'm going to assume you are now talking about the airflow internal to the intercooler. In this case, you are probably right - for efficiency reasons (not wanting to have to boost higher than necessary for thermal efficiency) you would want there to be least pressure drop across this. Sometimes an increased pressure drop is acceptable if you gain significant temperature decrease. These two trade offs (increased boost with higher output temps, and then using an intercooler that lowers temps while using a couple psi vs. boosting less and using an intercooler that flows better but may not cool as much) are often directly played off each other, with a measured power output being the deciding factor.

I was referring to ambient air flow across the intercooler - not the air the engine was breathing. Ambient air flow across the intercooler should be maximized, you want as little pressure as possible, because pressure means you cannot carry the heat away.

Again, not discounting what you have; not making any claims that you haven't achieved something great- just noting that there are areas which would make the cars even more potent.

[lilbusa600]

Many intercoolers simply make a channel for the air to flow through (i.e. the fins are all lined up). When you look down the core, you can see straight through it. With these cores, pressure drop across the core may be "slightly" less, but the cooling capacity is diminished as many of the air molecules go straight down the core without coming remotely close to the cooling fins. When each fin is offset from the next, the air molecules get much closer to the fins and for the short duration of their trip this turbulence results in a cooler air charge.

The question about #4, you'll probably notice the reason for this statement by looking at most of the other intercooler designs out there. In most intercooler kits, the air enters and exits at the bottom of the core which can be as much as 12" below the top of the core. The vast majority of the air flowing is going through the core happens at the height of these entry and exit points. The extra volume above creates a much larger pressure drop across the core and due to it's location does considerably less to cool the air charge. To make matters worse, most intercooler kits we've seen have the entry and exit "below" the air damn in the front bumper. The best intercooler designs have the most air flowing through the intercooler where the cross section of outside air is flowing in. Our intercooler literally maximizes this area in all 3 dimensions. The top of the core is 1/2" above the top of the air damn, the bottom is 1/2" below the bottom, the sides are pushed all the way to the edges of the air damn, and we've increased the thickness to a full 4" deep to maximize the space between the front bumper and the intercooler. To increase efficiency even further, we've moved the inlets and outlets to a height that allows nearly all of the air to flow down the center of the core (right down the center of the air damn).

We've done a lot of testing on inlet air temps (as they're so important to power and to pre-ignition), and in many cases, we've gotten them down to near ambient temperature. Our turbo kits have been able to lay down a significant amount of power at very low boost levels with very low intake air temps. Designing an intercooler from the ground up for a particular application to exacting specifications can have a definite advantage over purchasing the standard "Chinese" off the shelf intercooler and welding brackets on it to make it fit.

Take care,
Chris.

Wow, this is great info! I wish that I had one even though I'm not boosted yet...:drool: