VF Supercharger software and Alpha-N

[Nik@vf-engineering]

Hi guys!

As many of you may be aware, VF-Engineering's E46 supercharger system has been an immensely popular choice in the aftermarket and no doubt, this has created some waves along the way and ruffled the feathers of our competitors! A little bit of friendly competition is always a healthy thing! But we have seen several threads pop up in the forums which, with careful wording and without name dropping suggesting that VF/GIAC supercharger software is stock other than having removed the dyno and speed limiters.

For anyone with an understanding of basic logic, you will know that without careful ignition, fuel (and many other parameters) re-callibration, running an S54 motor with 8.5psi on 91 octane will detonate the motor pretty quickly. VF uses 550cc injectors with a Hitachi MAF on its stage 2. Add 8.5 psi to that mix and there is no way you would not set of a CEL in 15 miles (adaptation cycle).

Our supercharger competitors do not run a MAF because tuning with a MAF on the M3 is like trying to hit a moving target so they remove it and call it Alpha-N which to some sounds like a special "added feature". In actual fact, Alpha-N is a "safety mode" designed by BMW as a back up for when the TPS or MAF fails. VF uses a more reliable and forced induction proven, Hitachi MAF and re-calibrates the ECU to operate the vehicle smoothly and with full control of part throttle fuel trimming and WOT AFR control. No other tuner has done this to our knowledge. The Hitachi MAF upgrade is becoming a growing upgrade amongst the Porsche TTs also.

In order to run the S54s MSS54HP ecu in Alpha-N mode without a CEL, you have to delete certain aspects of the ECUs error reporting functions. Removing a MAF from your M3 will prevent it from operating dynamically to atmospheric conditions. For most part, the car will be operated on a locked set of maps which are pre-determined by the tuner. With a MAF your car will be able to adapt and use all the ECU dynamic controls. Running in Alpha-N may be well suited for very high power (1000hp) or track use, but we prefer not to run our production kits in safety mode.

Running the S54 M3 without cats, usually sets off the CEL for Cat-Inefficiency. Some tuners remove this error code reporting from the ECU software. VF/GIAC do not do this because it is ill-legal to remove cats from a street car.

Last week a shop installing a VF stage 2 contacted us to ask us nicely, if we would consider removing the "cat inefficiency" codes from our software as the customer wanted to run without cats. We advised that we could not do this due to liability. The shop then shipped the customers ECU with VF software in it, to Active Autowerke and then co-incedentally their thread about "running with stock software is bad for your car" and that dynojet numbers artificially inflate your power readings (even though they advertise a dynojet plot on their site!).

We have had a similar discussion when another supercharger kit manufacturer made the same suggestion that our software was "stock" ! Our answer was the same as it was back then: GIAC spent 9 months writing software encryption for the VF software. The AA software tuner in Puerto Rico will only be able to see the "red herring" data that GIAC has left in the accessible memory. GIAC does not store the "key workings" of the supercharger software where simple tuners would look.

Similar suggestions have been made about GIACs software which powers some very big Audis and 997TTs and Bentleys. "Red Herring" means smoke screen, and in the case of the S54 software, GIAC leave stock code as Red Herring data.

Currently the customer's ECU with VF software inside, that was sent to AA is being returned to the customers shop and AA have advised the shop that they cannot remove the cat-inefficiency codes because of the GIAC encryption and have since mistakenly shipped the ECU to the wrong address.

Please note, the above info is based on corroborated fact, and is not conjecture.


http://www.vf-engineering.com/unsecured/E46M3/e46m3-hs4.jpg


VF-Engineering's supercharger kit for the S54 M3 uses "state of the art" technology to create custom plastic molded ducts and water tank. VF's in-house plastic rotational modling plant, CNC plant, CAD/CAM, Dyno and employment of custom tuned encrypted BDM MSS54HP DME reflashing is combined to create arguablt the ultimate aftermarket product for your M3.

Using Vortech's V2/V3 supercharger units, VF-Engineering have created a system which operates the supercharger at a mere 60-70% duty cycle leaving plenty of boost untapped. Unlike smaller planetary geared superchargers the Vortech V2/V3 has a high CFM capacity and is not max'd out on bearing speed at 9psi and does not need an 8 rib pulley setup to make 16psi. The Vortech unit does not require an additional oil cooler to lubricate its bearings and the latest release of the V3 from Vortech means that oil lines are no longer required!

VF-Engineering employs air to water aftercooling on the E46 M3 and no other liquid-injections or similar devices. The air-to-water heat exchanger is placed inside the replacement manifold and is supplied by a 3 gallon isolated water system for the ultimate in cooling capacity. The following pricipals have been applied to the A/W system to set it apart from inferior designs

1) Front mounted water cooler radiator is larger than the air-charge cooler radiator (simple theory often overlooked)
2) Large volume water capacity (frequently overlooked by other designers)
3) Spec'd high flow water pump and hose diameters for calculated water circulation (optimal heat dissipation).

Whilst many may ask the question of why not air to air? Our answer is simple> why should you need to squirt water/alcohol into the motor as well as have an intercooler with a competitors kit? The answer is

1) The supercharger is heating the charge quicker than the intercooler is dissipating heat
2) The intercooler is too small !


below> VF front mount water radiator to cool the water
http://www.vf-engineering.com/unsecured/E46M3/Dimitri%20Thread%20Pics/DSC02880.jpg

below> VF water tank fits neatly within the stock undertray without any mods
http://www.vf-engineering.com/unsecured/E46M3/Dimitri%20Thread%20Pics/DSC02883.jpg

below> Finished product.
http://www.vf-engineering.com/unsecured/E46M3/Dimitri%20Thread%20Pics/DSC02914.jpg

[Jeffxxx]

Awkwarddd. :eek:

[HighBoostin330]

...Currently the customer's ECU with VF software inside, that was sent to AA is being returned to the customers shop and AA have advised the shop that they cannot remove the cat-inefficiency codes because of the GIAC encryption and have since mistakenly shipped the ECU to the wrong address...

Umm, did you not finish the details or something. :( Seems like you left out the ending. Happy ending, sad ending...car running...car sitting waiting for DME? Gotta finish it with an ending Nik. :banghead:

[Nik@vf-engineering]

Car is sitting, and the customers blood is boiling.

[Nik@vf-engineering]

Umm, did you not finish the details or something. :( Seems like you left out the ending. Happy ending, sad ending...car running...car sitting waiting for DME? Gotta finish it with an ending Nik. :banghead:

The key detail is that Active Autowerke "probably" fell into the same trap that others have when poking their nose into our software, and only saw red herring "stock" software. They then created a thread about how "stock" software is not safe with a supercharger but how running the M3 in the Alpha-N safety mode software is a great achievement for them.

[Boosted_ZHP]

Wow you guys are really bored huh? You have nothing better to do than come on here and flame another vendor. If you guys have a problem with them, call them over the phone. No need for us consumers to waste our time reading your crap. This is not the first time you guys have come here and provoked something. I had thought of a VF while I had my Cayman. Im glad i didnt get one, seeing how you guys act.

[TaZaM3]

Wow just wow.

[SPDu4ea]

Wow you guys are really bored huh? You have nothing better to do than come on here and flame another vendor. If you guys have a problem with them, call them over the phone. No need for us consumers to waste our time reading your crap. This is not the first time you guys have come here and provoked something. I had thought of a VF while I had my Cayman. Im glad i didnt get one, seeing how you guys act.

You don't think VF should be allowed to respond to AA's allegations? http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=567016

[OCswedishM3]

You don't think VF should be allowed to respond to AA's allegations? http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=567016

I dont see VF's name mentioned once in that thread... Ill double check

[SPDu4ea]

I dont see VF's name mentioned once in that thread... Ill double check

AA didn't mention VF's name, but it was fairly clear to anyone closely following the FI forums. What other manufacturer runs nearly 10psi, doesn't use alpha-N, uses liquid-to-air IC, and has been hounded on M3forums by two characters making a big deal about how dynojet numbers are inflated?

[DLSJ5]

I dont see VF's name mentioned once in that thread... Ill double check

Nate, they've made similiar accusations before, regardless even if they didn't mention which vendor it's proposterous to think you can simply change the rev limiter, dyno limiter, bolt on a supercharger making 10psi, bigger injectors and be on your way without any tuning, to suggest or promote such highly flawed info would lead me to believe that AA doesn't know squat about tuning the S54, but of course we know they do, it's just a bad attempt at marketing, lol. Where did they get 10psi, and why are the poking around in a VF ECU?

I think most of what AA posted is true, there's no doubt, they did lead the way when others said it wasn't possible, they make a solid kit and have done ALOT for the FI community, Vik's car is unreal, it' also fair game to pitch to us why they feel their kit is better compared to others, doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but the tuner and dyno claims are completely outlandish and unfair regardless of who they were referring too, don't you think?

[OCswedishM3]

AA didn't mention VF's name, but it was fairly clear to anyone closely following the FI forums. What other manufacturer runs nearly 10psi, doesn't use alpha-N, uses liquid-to-air IC, and has been hounded on M3forums by two characters making a big deal about how dynojet numbers are inflated?

Yeah ESS has been a topic of conversation too. Everyone is always bickering.

[OCswedishM3]

Nate, they've made similiar accusations before, regardless even if they didn't mention which vendor it's proposterous to think you can simply change the rev limiter, dyno limiter, bolt on a supercharger making 10psi, bigger injectors and be on your way without any tuning, to suggest or promote such highly flawed info would lead me to believe that AA doesn't know squat about tuning the S54, but of course we know they do, it's just a bad attempt at marketing, lol. Where did they get 10psi, and why are the poking around in a VF ECU?

I think most of what AA posted is true, there's no doubt, they did lead the way when others said it wasn't possible, they make a solid kit and have done ALOT for the FI community, Vik's car is unreal, it' also fair game to pitch to us why they feel their kit is better compared to others, doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but the tuner and dyno claims are completely outlandish and unfair regardless of who they were referring too, don't you think?

I would have left out some choice words... VF makes a great kit and i like it how there is room to play, what is the max boost 16psi? The 1 thing i didnt like was the run around i got from VF though. I've had my blower for 2 years come this September, and when i was deciding between the 2 they said only 1or 2 months more(i waited,still nothing), they even offered a huge discount and install since they are local, which was very cool of them, but u know they didnt come out with the kit for a whole YEAR later... I just dont like people who say 1 thing and then do another. I will even check my emails from 06'. Anyways in the end to each her own...but you have heard the saying,"respect your elders"haha. AA is definetly the eldest in the e46M3 F.I. world.

[DLSJ5]

I would have left out some choice words... VF makes a great kit and i like it how there is room to play, what is the max boost 16psi? The 1 thing i didnt like was the run around i got from VF though. I've had my blower for 2 years come this September, and when i was deciding between the 2 they said only 1or 2 months more(i waited,still nothing), they even offered a huge discount and install since they are local, which was very cool of them, but u know they didnt come out with the kit for a whole YEAR later... I just dont like people who say 1 thing and then do another. I will even check my emails from 06'. Anyways in the end to each her own...but you have heard the saying,"respect your elders"haha. AA is definetly the eldest in the e46M3 F.I. world.

Can't argue with that bro, I was frustrated they took so long as well, I was talking with them for a whole year and yes their expected release date changed and it is frustrating, lol, but for me it was worth the wait. But you make a good point, your frustration about their delays and changing release dates debunks AA's claims. VF/GIAC took a little longer not because of the hardware, but because of the tuning and encryption process. I used to wonder why it took so long, believing that it shouldn't be that difficult, lol. But when they were tuning my car for Stage 2, I saw the process, experienced it, it was elaborate and a long tedious process trust me there's ALOT of tuning to make it all work right, espeically with a MAF and I realized, it's not that simple. Tuners are always honing and updating their tuning, even the older platforms, 996TT's are faster than ever now, B5 Audi S4's are still develpoing, lol.

YOu going to the meet tomorrow?

[OCswedishM3]

Can't argue with that bro, I was frustrated they took so long as well, I was talking with them for a whole year and yes their expected release date changed and it is frustrating, lol, but for me it was worth the wait. But you make a good point, your frustration about their delays and changing release dates debunks AA's claims. VF/GIAC took a little longer not because of the hardware, but because of the tuning and encryption process. I used to wonder why it took so long, believing that it shouldn't be that difficult, lol. But when they were tuning my car for Stage 2, I saw the process, experienced it, it was elaborate and a long tedious process trust me there's ALOT of tuning to make it all work right, espeically with a MAF and I realized, it's not that simple. Tuners are always honing and updating their tuning, even the older platforms, 996TT's are faster than ever now, B5 Audi S4's are still develpoing, lol.

YOu going to the meet tomorrow?

I plan on it but the wife might keep me in. u?

[Boosted_ZHP]

You don't think VF should be allowed to respond to AA's allegations? http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=567016

I am no scientist, but I think the AA thread was made after this one?

I dont see VF's name mentioned once in that thread... Ill double check

Good Point...

[SPDu4ea]

I am no scientist, but I think the AA thread was made after this one?

Nope. AA made that thread yesterday afternoon. VF made this thread last night.

[gixxer]

I recall this has been covered before, but doesn't CSL run on Alpha-N ?

Also can someone verify whether E92 M3 uses the Alpha-N type management system as well?

[HighBoostin330]

I recall this has been covered before, but doesn't CSL run on Alpha-N ?

Also can someone verify whether E92 M3 uses the Alpha-N type management system as well?

CSL uses a MAP sensor since I don't believe they make 5" MAF sensors.

[gixxer]

CSL uses a MAP sensor since I don't believe they make 5" MAF sensors.

Yep,

But i saw a post that states (from owner of CSL and also *claims* he gets this info from horse's mouth) that,

"Essentially the CSL is controlled by Alpha-N. In addition the data from an intake pressure sensor is used to equalize the intake and respectively to compensate eventual environmental influences and part tolerances."

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

As i posted on another forum, the customer was not lied to. We decided to not offer software support due to the obvious.

We have the ability to read the ENTIRE DME meaning there are no hidden areas. The only way to even attempt to hide something in the DME would require removing the actual chip and writing to it that way.

You see there is more than one way to get away with improper tuning or no tuning at all.
I will explain.
One way is to use a resistor on the maf. This cuts the signal of the voltage going to the DME so the DME thinks its getting less air. This also makes it possible to run larger injectors with no tuning since the Factory DME is cutting the signal to the injectors as well. This makes the DME send what is then estimated to be the proper amount of fuel. This requires no tuning what so ever.
Another method to achieve the exact same thing is to just use a different maf. The different may be capable of seeing more air flow, however it is not what was designed to work with the S54's DME. This will also cause the DME to see less air and cut fuel. Now you can install larger injectors and run more boost without setting the alarms in the DME crazy.
The one thing that can not be altered with this "Red Herring" method is timing. So you are running factory timing regardless.

You see "Red Herring" aka smoke screen is just that. Its a smoke screen to hide what is actually going on. Not a way to hide information inside of a stock DME.

I also see an weak attempt to add another smoke screen that there is a tuner in Puerto Rico who is an AAtuner. We have quite a few shops and tuners world wide that we assist and or work with to better our kits as well as their projects, yes even tuners in Puerto Rico.

Over the past few years other tuning companies as well as Active Autowerke have been supporting the E36 VF level 1 and custom made level 2's. Just search on Bimmerforums and see how many VF kits are running Active Autowerke software and contact us for a VF level 2 upgrade.

[Asbjorn@ESS]

The one thing that can not be altered with this "Red Herring" method is timing. So you are running factory timing regardless.


Well, not exactly correct but very close. By offsetting the MAF signal (either by resistor, larger MAF or the MAF conversion table reduced in the DME) and not reprogramming the load calculations accordingly you will run higher timing than stock in most conditions even with a stock ignition map since the DME will utilize a lower load point in all maps with a load axis.

And it is not just ignition timing that is affected by this reduced load signal tuning method you describe, it is also vanos control, idle stabilization, DSC, SMG, etc.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Well, not exactly correct but very close. By offsetting the MAF signal (either by resistor, larger MAF or the MAF conversion table reduced in the DME) and not reprogramming the load calculations accordingly you will run higher timing than stock in most conditions even with a stock ignition map since the DME will utilize a lower load point in all maps with a load axis.

And it is not just ignition timing that is affected by this reduced load signal tuning method you describe, it is also vanos control, idle stabilization, DSC, SMG, etc.

That is a more technical answer and correct. As you know its still in the factory standards and will react accordingly. That is what i meant.

[ST06M3]

Great stuff guys and to think this is all happening right before Bimmerfest.

Cant wait to see both of your products at the Big Show. :thumbsup:

[Asbjorn@ESS]

That is a more technical answer and correct. As you know its still in the factory standards and will react accordingly. That is what i meant.

Yes Jean, you are absolutely correct. Factory adaptations are very good and will compensate for a lot of deviation in the load signal before it becomes noticeable in the behavior of the car or throw a CEL.

[TaZaM3]

As i posted on another forum, the customer was not lied to. We decided to not offer software support due to the obvious.

We have the ability to read the ENTIRE DME meaning there are no hidden areas. The only way to even attempt to hide something in the DME would require removing the actual chip and writing to it that way.

You see there is more than one way to get away with improper tuning or no tuning at all.
I will explain.
One way is to use a resistor on the maf. This cuts the signal of the voltage going to the DME so the DME thinks its getting less air. This also makes it possible to run larger injectors with no tuning since the Factory DME is cutting the signal to the injectors as well. This makes the DME send what is then estimated to be the proper amount of fuel. This requires no tuning what so ever.
Another method to achieve the exact same thing is to just use a different maf. The different may be capable of seeing more air flow, however it is not what was designed to work with the S54's DME. This will also cause the DME to see less air and cut fuel. Now you can install larger injectors and run more boost without setting the alarms in the DME crazy.
The one thing that can not be altered with this "Red Herring" method is timing. So you are running factory timing regardless.

You see "Red Herring" aka smoke screen is just that. Its a smoke screen to hide what is actually going on. Not a way to hide information inside of a stock DME.

I also see an weak attempt to add another smoke screen that there is a tuner in Puerto Rico who is an AAtuner. We have quite a few shops and tuners world wide that we assist and or work with to better our kits as well as their projects, yes even tuners in Puerto Rico.

Over the past few years other tuning companies as well as Active Autowerke have been supporting the E36 VF level 1 and custom made level 2's. Just search on Bimmerforums and see how many VF kits are running Active Autowerke software and contact us for a VF level 2 upgrade.


Well, not exactly correct but very close. By offsetting the MAF signal (either by resistor, larger MAF or the MAF conversion table reduced in the DME) and not reprogramming the load calculations accordingly you will run higher timing than stock in most conditions even with a stock ignition map since the DME will utilize a lower load point in all maps with a load axis.

And it is not just ignition timing that is affected by this reduced load signal tuning method you describe, it is also vanos control, idle stabilization, DSC, SMG, etc.

From talking to lots of informative people, i must say these explanations seem very accurate to me.

[BimmerDude18]

One thing that I've wondered after hearing these allegations (I choose this word without intending the connotation it can carry) that there is encryption of the tuning on GIAC's part. My question is this.

My computer (so people can maybe follow) has a motherboard that has BIOS on it. I bought it with a harddrive with windows 2000 on it. I upgrade a couple things, more ram, etc., and to take advantage I need windows XP. So I "reflash" my harddrive and install XP. The location and organization of the file structure can't be changed because its the same motherboard. If it was an encrypted data structure the motherboard would just return an error.

So my question then is:
Is it possible that without a physical change in the microprocessor system within the factory DME, that the data can be reorganized and "encrypted" as it is claimed to be? I don't believe it is, just like MAC OSx won't run on my PC because the computer is looking for data in the wrong organizational and processing structure, encrypted data should behave as such in a factory DME.

I'm not saying that VF does that - I have no inside information or knowledge, I'm just asking how it could even be possible to encrypt something without physically changing the DME.....which is btw where a piggyback would become advantageous (ie HPF).

[Asbjorn@ESS]

One thing that I've wondered after hearing these allegations (I choose this word without intending the connotation it can carry) that there is encryption of the tuning on GIAC's part. My question is this.

My computer (so people can maybe follow) has a motherboard that has BIOS on it. I bought it with a harddrive with windows 2000 on it. I upgrade a couple things, more ram, etc., and to take advantage I need windows XP. So I "reflash" my harddrive and install XP. The location and organization of the file structure can't be changed because its the same motherboard. If it was an encrypted data structure the motherboard would just return an error.

So my question then is:
Is it possible that without a physical change in the microprocessor system within the factory DME, that the data can be reorganized and "encrypted" as it is claimed to be? I don't believe it is, just like MAC OSx won't run on my PC because the computer is looking for data in the wrong organizational and processing structure, encrypted data should behave as such in a factory DME.

I'm not saying that VF does that - I have no inside information or knowledge, I'm just asking how it could even be possible to encrypt something without physically changing the DME.....which is btw where a piggyback would become advantageous (ie HPF).

Well, if you have some spare memory space in the DME you can create "ghost" maps and place your new functional maps in a vacant memory area and instruct the OS to utilize this map area instead for that particular function, but it is very easy to find out which maps are active and not.

[BimmerDude18]

Well, if you have some spare memory space in the DME you can create "ghost" maps and place your new functional maps in a vacant memory area and instruct the OS to utilize this map area instead for that particular function, but it is very easy to find out which maps are active and not.And I'm assuming that all 2004+ DME's have a decent amount of spare memory because of the space for the MAP tuning files as used on the CSL?

I mean - I understand the principles at work, and if you see two maps, and the car has plotted dynos indicating the use of 1, it should be obvious (maybe thats just me?).

[Asbjorn@ESS]

And I'm assuming that all 2004+ DME's have a decent amount of spare memory because of the space for the MAP tuning files as used on the CSL?

I mean - I understand the principles at work, and if you see two maps, and the car has plotted dynos indicating the use of 1, it should be obvious (maybe thats just me?).

MSS54 has 2x256kb
MSS54HP has 2x512kb

A trained eye uses less than 60 seconds to locate all main ignition, vanos and fuel maps in both systems.

How to separate the active maps from the inactive maps quickest? Read the OS code and see what area is addressed for that particular function or use the more primitive way and hook up an emulator to see what memory area is targeted by the processors. It's not really rocket science..:)

[BimmerDude18]

MSS54 has 2x256kb
MSS54HP has 2x512kb

A trained eye uses less than 60 seconds to locate all main ignition, vanos and fuel maps in both systems.

How to separate the active maps from the inactive maps quickest? Read the OS code and see what area is addressed for that particular function or use the more primitive way and hook up an emulator to see what memory area is targeted by the processors. It's not really rocket science..:)OK, not believing the hype, time to sit back and :popcorn:

[jt330ci]

i just wish that i knew what everyone was talking about:banghead:

[Nik@vf-engineering]

The logic behind writing encryption is to prevent "prying evil eyes". The mere fact that both ESS and AA continue to believe to this day that our software is stock suggests that our GIAC encryption is doing its job.

You can write all the theory about resistors (which I do not dispute) but the fact remains that we have over 120 MSS54 ecus trimming within +/-5% long term with a MAF. It is completely rediculous to think that we have been lucky in doing that with a resistor but you can grasp onto that reasoning if it makes you feel better because it would be a miracle if we could.

It is quite normal when you have something that none of the competition do, for them to try and chissel holes in your reputation and work. We and GIAC expected it a long time ago, and in fact we even considered leaving "quirky messages" in our software in place of our red herring stock data for the "prying eyes" but thought that would be impolite and create more arguments on the forum.

When either of you learn to write in assembler language, make your own BDM tools and BDM software and encryption with rolling codes you will not have to delete sections of error reporting code and MAF signals out of your supercharger software and can ditch the EVC or CSW software suites.

[DLSJ5]

Yes Jean, you are absolutely correct. Factory adaptations are very good and will compensate for a lot of deviation in the load signal before it becomes noticeable in the behavior of the car or throw a CEL.

Well said Asbjorn, I'm not going to pretend to know what you do, lol, or the tuners, but I do moniter my car quite a bit and have been part of the process when VF/GIAC tuned my stage 2 and Jean's theories may apply in certain ambiguous situations, but not with a kit that has been sold all over the country with MANY happy customers, it's just not reality, you'd have TONS of people complaing that they can't drive their car anymore, lol, it just isnt' the case. Regardless for every unhappy VF customer, there's one for ESS and AA as well, nature of the game, you would know you guys have taken AA kits added your tuning and ASA blowers and made more power.

You make a great point about how good the stock DME is at adapting, but as you point out it will EVENTUALLY become noticible in the behaivor of the car and it will throw codes, etc. and that is what throws Jean's theories into wacko land, as it seems most of those VF kits with thousands of miles on them run fantastic.

From what I've seen you start to see the fuel trims change in as little as 15 miles after resetting adaptations and SOON after the car will go crazy one way or the other if fuel tweaks and tuning are not optimal. The ECU does not the have the correction paramaters to correct for 550CC injectors without tuning and a MAF resistor has been used by ESS as well. Also the VFE car runs perfectly fine without a MAF or safe mode as well on 550CC injectors.

I can asure you I'm not running stock timing on my kit, especially here in socal in 100+ degree temps on 91 craptane, you may see one thing when you pry into the ECU but in real time on the scan tool my timing CF's are around 2-4 at the most on very hot days on 91 octane, well within safe paramaters. You're right the stock DME can compensate quite a bit but not that much and at a certain point, well within 100 miles or so the car will go into limp mode at WOT and throw codes.

Regardless without tuning, the car will not perform in the long term as VF cars haev, it will not be drivable, so this could hardly be sold as a kit to a TON of people and not have these drivability issues. So Jean's general take on the tuning is proposterous, you also affirmed that a red herring is possible, but someone that is good can spot it, is it possible that's it's good enough that it would take someone a LONG time to spot it rather than 60 seconds? Correct me if I'm wrong but in a prior post you said there wasn't room for a red herring on the S54 DME?

[eurotekm3]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: TUNER WAR !! + 1 VF

[gixxer]

When either of you learn to write in assembler language, make your own BDM tools and BDM software and encryption with rolling codes you will not have to delete sections of error reporting code and ...

Um, so i have some experiences with those, hehe...

PowerPC BookE and Classic versions, on-chip assist debugging through BDM and JTAG. Currently i use Wind River ICE for JTAG debugging of PowerPC 4xx.

And yes, assembly programming and microcoding skills and experiences.

So is that a good start?

Damn, i should apply for a position as tunner noob (as i have zero experience in applying all that above skills in tuning a car, but would sure beat my day job, for sure) at GIAC and AA. :excited:

[DLSJ5]

Um, so i have some experiences with those, hehe...

PowerPC BookE and Classic versions, on-chip assist debugging through BDM and JTAG. Currently i use Wind River ICE for JTAG debugging of PowerPC 4xx.

And yes, assembly programming and microcoding skills and experiences.

So is that a good start?

Damn, i should apply for a position as tunner noob (as i have zero experience in applying all that above skills in tuning a car, but would sure beat my day job, for sure) at GIAC and AA. :excited:

:rofl:

[TaZaM3]

The logic behind writing encryption is to prevent "prying evil eyes". The mere fact that both ESS and AA continue to believe to this day that our software is stock suggests that our GIAC encryption is doing its job.

You can write all the theory about resistors (which I do not dispute) but the fact remains that we have over 120 MSS54 ecus trimming within +/-5% long term with a MAF. It is completely rediculous to think that we have been lucky in doing that with a resistor but you can grasp onto that reasoning if it makes you feel better because it would be a miracle if we could.

It is quite normal when you have something that none of the competition do, for them to try and chissel holes in your reputation and work. We and GIAC expected it a long time ago, and in fact we even considered leaving "quirky messages" in our software in place of our red herring stock data for the "prying eyes" but thought that would be impolite and create more arguments on the forum.

When either of you learn to write in assembler language, make your own BDM tools and BDM software and encryption with rolling codes you will not have to delete sections of error reporting code and MAF signals out of your supercharger software and can ditch the EVC or CSW software suites.

Man you talk ALOT of **** for a company rep...

[Asbjorn@ESS]

Well said Asbjorn, I'm not going to pretend to know what you do, lol, or the tuners, but I do moniter my car quite a bit and have been part of the process when VF/GIAC tuned my stage 2 and Jean's theories may apply in certain ambiguous situations, but not with a kit that has been sold all over the country with MANY happy customers, it's just not reality, you'd have TONS of people complaing that they can't drive their car anymore, lol, it just isnt' the case. Regardless for every unhappy VF customer, there's one for ESS and AA as well, nature of the game, you would know you guys have taken AA kits added your tuning and ASA blowers and made more power.

You make a great point about how good the stock DME is at adapting, but as you point out it will EVENTUALLY become noticible in the behaivor of the car and it will throw codes, etc. and that is what throws Jean's theories into wacko land, as it seems most of those VF kits with thousands of miles on them run fantastic.

From what I've seen you start to see the fuel trims change in as little as 15 miles after resetting adaptations and SOON after the car will go crazy one way or the other if fuel tweaks and tuning are not optimal. The ECU does not the have the correction paramaters to correct for 550CC injectors without tuning and a MAF resistor has been used by ESS as well. Also the VFE car runs perfectly fine without a MAF or safe mode as well on 550CC injectors.

I can asure you I'm not running stock timing on my kit, especially here in socal in 100+ degree temps on 91 craptane, you may see one thing when you pry into the ECU but in real time on the scan tool my timing CF's are around 2-4 at the most on very hot days on 91 octane, well within safe paramaters. You're right the stock DME can compensate quite a bit but not that much and at a certain point, well within 100 miles or so the car will go into limp mode at WOT and throw codes.

Regardless without tuning, the car will not perform in the long term as VF cars haev, it will not be drivable, so this could hardly be sold as a kit to a TON of people and not have these drivability issues. So Jean's general take on the tuning is proposterous, you also affirmed that a red herring is possible, but someone that is good can spot it, is it possible that's it's good enough that it would take someone a LONG time to spot it rather than 60 seconds? Correct me if I'm wrong but in a prior post you said there wasn't room for a red herring on the S54 DME?


As I have said before I will not discuss VF's software. I am just chiming in with some technical facts for all the people who want to learn something about their cars control system.

On the MSS54 you can actually just reduce the MAF conversion table with the percentage of the fuel injector increase and the car will run just fine with moderate boost pressures and adaptation within -+5%. In my 13 years of BMW software experience the MSS54 is probably one of the most compliant systems I have ever worked on. It is a total piece of cake compared to for instance MS45, MSS70 and ME9.

It is absolutely nothing wrong with stretching the oem MAF system capacity with the use of larger MAF bodies/resistors but the ECU must be programmed accordingly to operate with a correct load calculation.

And Nik, if you are so good with BMW code, how come you have yet to figure out any of the more complex BMW control systems like MS45 and ME9 Valvetronic V8? You sure have been trying for many years.. :)

[DLSJ5]

As I have said before I will not discuss VF's software. I am just chiming in with some technical facts for all the people who want to learn something about their cars control system.

On the MSS54 you can actually just reduce the MAF conversion table with the percentage of the fuel injector increase and the car will run just fine with moderate boost pressures and adaptation within -+5%. In my 13 years of BMW software experience the MSS54 is probably one of the most compliant systems I have ever worked on. It is a total piece of cake compared to for instance MS45, MSS70 and ME9.

It is absolutely nothing wrong with stretching the oem MAF system capacity with the use of larger MAF bodies/resistors but the ECU must be programmed accordingly to operate with a correct load calculation.

And Nik, if you are so good with BMW code, how come you have yet to figure out any of the more complex BMW control systems like MS45 and ME9 Valvetronic V8? You sure have been trying for many years..


I appreciate the reply, so we can agree that at least some tuning was done, lol, not none as AA is asserting and as you know there's a MAJOR difference between a car running "just fine" and one that hits 470WHP SAE corrected not DIN, on a dynojet and runs mid 11 second 1/4 mile times then the next day is driven to work in LA traffic, with exceptional stock like driveability. I can tell you alot of hard work and tuning was done from what I experienced, and it was awesome to be part of the process, it's definently not as simple as you describe it to be. BTW when are your kits coming to the states?

If 15K of very hard driving on 91 craptane in 100+ degree temps and an 11.5 at 123 on 8.5 psi is "running just fine", than that's good enough for me and it appears a whole lotta other folks. :thumbsup:

As far as Nik and the BMW tuning thing, he designs kits for VW, Audi, and Porsche as well, so I'm sure it has more to do with that, rather than any inability or lack of trying to tune the ECU's you mentioned. :)

[Nik@vf-engineering]

..And Nik, if you are so good with BMW code, how come you have yet to figure out any of the more complex BMW control systems like MS45 and ME9 Valvetronic V8? You sure have been trying for many years.. :)

What makes you so sure self assured that we have been trying MS45, ME9 and N62 software for many years?

VF has had MS45 products listed on our site as "in development" because we did not get around to booking test cars in and quite frankly it has not been commercially viable for us in the US market and we are busy creating FI kits for Audi, VW and Porsche models too. In fact we are about to start MS45 in about 2 months because we have decided to add it to our CARB applications. The N62 V8s were delayed as we moved from a centrifugal unit to a roots unit

GIAC completed ME9 quite a long time ago on other German makes. BTW, I do not claim to be "good with BMW code".

Maybe you can answer one question too - Which software suite do you use EVC or CSW?

[Saintly]

11.5 at 123 on 8.5 psi is "running just fine", than that's good enough for me and it appears a whole lotta other folks. :thumbsup:

Stop rubbing it in. Show off:thumbsup:

[DLSJ5]

Stop rubbing it in. Show off:thumbsup:

haha, you'll get it back! Bro add your awesome ET and trap to www.dragtimes.com!!! Not that AA needs anymore there, haha, VF owners need to get on it!

[Asbjorn@ESS]

What makes you so sure self assured that we have been trying MS45, ME9 and N62 software for many years?

Perhaps you are not aware that ME9 is actually controlling the N62 Valvetronic engine? It is not 2 different systems..



VF has had MS45 products listed on our site as "in development" because we did not get around to booking test cars in and quite frankly it has not been commercially viable for us in the US market and we are busy creating FI kits for Audi, VW and Porsche models too. In fact we are about to start MS45 in about 2 months because we have decided to add it to our CARB applications. The N62 V8s were delayed as we moved from a centrifugal unit to a roots unit

GIAC completed ME9 quite a long time ago on other German makes. BTW, I do not claim to be "good with BMW code".

Maybe you can answer one question too - Which software suite do you use EVC or CSW?

That is all good, fact of the matter is that you have still not done any of the difficult BMW models despite R&D'ing them for many years now, and another fact is that there is definitively no way for you to hide your code behind your so called "red herring" in MSS54. The only way to secure MSS54 code is to use sophisticated encryption sockets on the chips and cut the serial connection lead on the ECU board + coat everything in resin.

What tools we use? Probably ones you would not understand anything of given your apparent competence on the matter.. :tsk:

[OCswedishM3]

Perhaps you are not aware that ME9 is actually controlling the N62 Valvetronic engine? It is not 2 different systems..




That is all good, fact of the matter is that you have still not done any of the difficult BMW models despite R&D'ing them for many years now, and another fact is that there is definitively no way for you to hide your code behind your so called "red herring" in MSS54. The only way to secure MSS54 code is to use sophisticated encryption sockets on the chips and cut the serial connection lead on the ECU board + coat everything in resin.

What tools we use? Probably ones you would not understand anything of given your apparent competence on the matter.. :tsk:

Like bong resin?

[BimmerDude18]

Like bong resin?

Like making a physical alteration to the ECU.

The basic premise is this.

Encyption usually exists in a situation where data is scrambled in whatever teh memory vessle is. The computer that reads the data then has a "decryption program" built in and a user has to input a key. The only way for there to be a decryption program and key the car could see would be to build it into the memory of the ECU.

So its not actually encryption. the maps may be scrambled, but there would HAVE to be pointers (aka an index) telling the ECU where to look in memory for what information....

[Nik@vf-engineering]

Perhaps you are not aware that ME9 is actually controlling the N62 Valvetronic engine? It is not 2 different systems..




That is all good, fact of the matter is that you have still not done any of the difficult BMW models despite R&D'ing them for many years now, and another fact is that there is definitively no way for you to hide your code behind your so called "red herring" in MSS54. The only way to secure MSS54 code is to use sophisticated encryption sockets on the chips and cut the serial connection lead on the ECU board + coat everything in resin.

What tools we use? Probably ones you would not understand anything of given your apparent competence on the matter.. :tsk:


For someone who is as "modest" as you, and who states "we know everything there is to know about the MSS54HP ECU" I am quite surprised that you find the time to spend on the forum and grace us with your presence. You should really consider being a consultant to BMW so that they dont have to keep issuing software updates every 90 days.

Not only do you respond with posts that are personally derogatory and spiteful but you also are very immodest.

You have no idea about writing your own encryption which is why you do not deny using EVC or CSW software suites to help you re-tune ECUs. Your conjecture that it is not possible to write encyrption and hide it, is a testament to the very fact that you cannot understand its process, yet you continue to argue about something you do not understand - this is called ignorance.

Your naivity is clearly apparent from the fact that you can even believe something as rediculous as "VF supercharger software being stock software". For someone who has been supercharging BMWs since 2000 you really have no clue about what you are doing if you think that this is even possible.

You can get back on your high horse and carry on riding around with your nose in the air now.

Dont bother writing any more attacks on us, this is not worth our time.

[Asbjorn@ESS]

For someone who is as "modest" as you, and who states "we know everything there is to know about the MSS54HP ECU" I am quite surprised that you find the time to spend on the forum and grace us with your presence. You should really consider being a consultant to BMW so that they dont have to keep issuing software updates every 90 days.

Not only do you respond with posts that are personally derogatory and spiteful but you also are very immodest.

You have no idea about writing your own encryption which is why you do not deny using EVC or CSW software suites to help you re-tune ECUs. Your conjecture that it is not possible to write encyrption and hide it, is a testament to the very fact that you cannot understand its process, yet you continue to argue about something you do not understand - this is called ignorance.

Your naivity is clearly apparent from the fact that you can even believe something as rediculous as "VF supercharger software being stock software". For someone who has been supercharging BMWs since 2000 you really have no clue about what you are doing if you think that this is even possible.

You can get back on your high horse and carry on riding around with your nose in the air now.

Dont bother writing any more attacks on us, this is not worth our time.

We have actually been doing it since 1995, but that is not really relevant.

I actually know several of the guys that work on the R&D of oem software and I even pointed them to your earlier posts in a discussion we had some months ago and they got a good laugh.. :)

Why not be honest about it? Is it because you do not know any better? Just to inform you I booted up your Stage 1 software in a M3 and just as it should the ECU addressed and used all fuel, vanos and ignition data in their oem locations. It even targeted the oem positioned MAF conversion table which was conveniently reduced by ~20%. There really would not be another possibility since there was no other "shadow" map area present in the files.. What was done (or not) to the main fuel, vanos and ignition maps or load reference calculations I will let people speculate in themselves.

As far as "tools", have you ever heard of Gredy and INCA? ;)

[Nik@vf-engineering]

We have actually been doing it since 1995, but that is not really relevant.

I actually know several of the guys that work on the R&D of oem software and I even pointed them to your earlier posts in a discussion we had some months ago and they got a good laugh.. :)

Why not be honest about it? Is it because you do not know any better? Just to inform you I booted up your Stage 1 software in a M3 and just as it should the ECU addressed and used all fuel, vanos and ignition data in their oem locations. It even targeted the oem positioned MAF conversion table which was conveniently reduced by ~20%. There really would not be another possibility since there was no other "shadow" map area present in the files.. What was done (or not) to the main fuel, vanos and ignition maps or load reference calculations I will let people speculate in themselves.

As far as "tools", have you ever heard of Gredy and INCA? ;)



We could tit-for-tat until the end of time. We also know several engineers in OEM development teams and they have been "laughing" at your software since the 2001/2 when users in the USA were removing your kits because they were so fed up with CELs. Your brackets are made from waterjet cut aluminum plate which flexes etc. The list goes on.

In fact you are so "technically advanced" that you felt the need to announce your "all new Bosch fuel injectors with OEM matched spray cones" in a thread last year after selling kits with substandard injectors. That really gave us a laugh. We have been using OEM matched spray cones since day1 while you were still using Ford Motorsport straight stream "pintle" EV1 fuel injectors from the 1970's on 2001-4 BMWs ! You were so advanced that you had fuel dripping off the walls inside the cylinder heads causes poor idle and stalling and blaming it on contaminated MAFs.

There is much more and it's probably giving many of the forum readers who had your M54 325/328/330 kits a feeling of deja-vu.

We could talk about your M62 V8 kits if you want -they are a real mess: plate brackets squashing water hoses and non-stop MAF issues.

What a waste of bandwidth.

[Asbjorn@ESS]

We could tit-for-tat until the end of time. We also know several engineers in OEM development teams and they have been "laughing" at your software since the 2001/2 when users in the USA were removing your kits because they were so fed up with CELs. Your brackets are made from waterjet cut aluminum plate which flexes etc. The list goes on.

In fact you are so "technically advanced" that you felt the need to announce your "all new Bosch fuel injectors with OEM matched spray cones" in a thread last year after selling kits with substandard injectors. That really gave us a laugh. We have been using OEM matched spray cones since day1 while you were still using Ford Motorsport straight stream "pintle" EV1 fuel injectors from the 1970's on 2001-4 BMWs ! You were so advanced that you had fuel dripping off the walls inside the cylinder heads causes poor idle and stalling and blaming it on contaminated MAFs.

There is much more and it's probably giving many of the forum readers who had your M54 325/328/330 kits a feeling of deja-vu.

We could talk about your M62 V8 kits if you want -they are a real mess: plate brackets squashing water hoses and non-stop MAF issues.

What a waste of bandwidth.

We never even owned a waterjet so I think you are confusing us with somebody else. All our bracketry are CNC machined from Certal high strength aluminium and it always has been. Would you please share with me where to find the many unsatisifed ESS customers you seem to know? I sense some desperation on your end here Nik?:rolleyes: I think ESS customers on this board can attest to the quality and function of our products which are second to none.

Our M62 V8 kits uses a new custom engine mount as a base foundation and a 22mm Certal main bracket, yours is 10mm bolted in 3x 6mm bolts to the aluminium head, need I say more?

The custom Bosch Motorsport injectors we use in our E46 M3 kits in question are EXACTLY matched to the oem spray pattern and angle, much more accurate than what you use. Not that it really matters that much though.

[mikem7709]

Not really getting anyone, anywhere this guys. Put it to rest and let customers decide themselves. :thumbsup:

[Nik@vf-engineering]

Not really getting anyone, anywhere this guys. Put it to rest and let customers decide themselves. :thumbsup:

There is no harm in having a friendly conversation between businesses. Whilst this is an enthusiasts forum, it is also open to businesses to chat as we sponsor the forum. There is plenty of room in the market for several companies to make competing products for, and always a little time for some banter! :)

In the meantime Asbjorn, there is no desperation in my tone, we just cant believe your self confidence is so high considering what you have done in the US market over the years. You are lucky that the demographics of the consumer base changes so quickly allowing you to take advantage of another set of fresh consumers who have not researched your history in the US. Your FL office quicky closed when you were pummelled by angry customers in the US with non-stop CELs and we will wait to see what happens to the CA office.

You do not have to own a waterjet cutter to be able to employ one. I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to 10mm plate. But I have seen 10mm plate brackets with ESS logos on them. If you are talking about our V8 kits, they have always been made from 3" billet. In your usual fashion, you really enjoy making up information and using it for your own humour.

We wish you all the best with your continuing efforts to market in the US but I suggest you get rid of those EV1 1970's fuel injectors from your E46 (non-M) kits and stop telling customers to change their MAF's and clear adaptations because after the adaptations re-settle, their cars will continue to stall.

Your ego drives you to not allow anyone else have the last word in a conversation other than you. To this end I politely ask that you now follow forum etiquette, and stay out of our thread.

Thankyou.

[Asbjorn@ESS]

There is no harm in having a friendly conversation between businesses. Whilst this is an enthusiasts forum, it is also open to businesses to chat as we sponsor the forum. There is plenty of room in the market for several companies to make competing products for, and always a little time for some banter! :)

In the meantime Asbjorn, there is no desperation in my tone, we just cant believe your self confidence is so high considering what you have done in the US market over the years. You are lucky that the demographics of the consumer base changes so quickly allowing you to take advantage of another set of fresh consumers who have not researched your history in the US. Your FL office quicky closed when you were pummelled by angry customers in the US with non-stop CELs and we will wait to see what happens to the CA office.

You do not have to own a waterjet cutter to be able to employ one. I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to 10mm plate. But I have seen 10mm plate brackets with ESS logos on them. If you are talking about our V8 kits, they have always been made from 3" billet. In your usual fashion, you really enjoy making up information and using it for your own humour.

We wish you all the best with your continuing efforts to market in the US but I suggest you get rid of those EV1 1970's fuel injectors from your E46 (non-M) kits and stop telling customers to change their MAF's and clear adaptations because after the adaptations re-settle, their cars will continue to stall.

Your ego drives you to not allow anyone else have the last word in a conversation other than you. To this end I politely ask that you now follow forum etiquette, and stay out of our thread.

Thankyou.

Just trying to inform people when you try to smoke screen or "red herr" like you call it. But I guess that neither we or AA has the ability to understand your supernatural code. Heck what do we know?

We used to have a general importer for the US in FL many years ago, but due to personal reasons with the owner of that shop we decided to open our own sales and support center in CA instead of having a US general importer. Our old distributor is still in business last I heard from him.

We have ALWAYS supported our customers 100% direct from our main office no matter where they are in the world. We even have fly out tech service available if required.

I am not sure where you get your information from? I was not even aware our kits stalled, I thought that was a VF only problem? But then again what do I know?

We use brand new Bosch fuel injectors in all M52TU/M54 kits, they are used as OEM equipment in several 2000+ MY cars. The original low pressure fuel injector design from Bosch has not changed much in 30 years that is correct, with DI coming on new models it will provide even more possibilities for high CR and boost.

This will be my last post in this thread, and all I ask is just to be honest about things, don't "red herr" your customers into believing what is not.

[jtrejo]

if vf had no actual upgrades software, mapping and stuff how would it not throw cel and how would it run so good. i do not own a vf kit but have drivin one and have seen it run very high hp cars and win? and would giac let them put there name on there kit if it didnt? Doubt it.

[Nik@vf-engineering]

JT - Asbjorn cannot reply as he has graciously stepped out of our thread.

Just trying to inform people when you try to smoke screen or "red herr" like you call it. But I guess that neither we or AA has the ability to understand your supernatural code. Heck what do we know?

..

We use brand new Bosch fuel injectors in all M52TU/M54 kits, they are used as OEM equipment in several 2000+ MY cars. The original low pressure fuel injector design from Bosch has not changed much in 30 years that is correct, with DI coming on new models it will provide even more possibilities for high CR and boost.



Thankyou Asbjorn for being a gentleman, and voicing your side of the debate. It is always positive to allow both sides to air their opinions in order to make a balanced discussion, especially on a public forum. I am glad that we could have such a cordial exchange of words.


For the readers information, the non-M3 M52 (E36) engines are very different to M54 (E46) in terms of injector spray patterns. BMW uses Siemens not Bosch Injectors on the E46 M54 engines and they are ***8220;split spray, dual cone bent stream***8221; spray pattern. Bosch has changed their injectors from EV1 in the 70***8217;s to the current EV14 with a massive improvement (reduction) in injector ***8220;response time***8221; and injector spray patterns for cleaner emissions and smoother idle.

If you use Bosch EV1 injectors (single cone straight stream) as is used by some other supercharger kits, it will cause all kinds of erroneous problems such as stalling often blamed on the MAF. Anyway enough of that, you only need to do a search to see all the problems people on this forum had a few years ago.

GIAC found at www.giacusa.com has been recalibrating ECU software for over 15 years. Unlike other so-called ***8220;tuners***8221; GIAC***8217;s engineering team writes their own software disassembly and recalibration tools and does not use 3rd party software suites. GIAC has a network of close to 200 dealers worldwide, many of whom are OEM dealerships for brands such as Audi, VW, Porshe and Bentley. GIAC also support race teams and kit manufacturers such as VF-Engineering (Superchargers for BMW, Porsche 996/7, VW and Audi) and Evolution Motorsports (Turbo upgrade systems for the Porsche 996/7 Twin Turbo). Amongst some of GIAC***8217;s accolades are the following:



1) Apr 08 ***8211; GIAC software guides the EVOMS 997TT to hit an unseen ever before 190mph from a standing start in the ***8220;Texas Mile***8221; event.

http://www.evoms.com/evo/Pages/TEXASMILE.asp

http://images.skem1.com/client_id_1596/997_track_distance_1.jpg



2) Feb 08 ***8211; Tony Gilham (2007 VW GTI with GIAC software), winner of the official ***8220;Volkswagen UK Cup***8221; 2007 was invited by Porsche GB (UK) to pilot a GT3 in the official ***8220;Porsche Carrera Cup 2008.

http://www.redesignracing.com/

http://www.vag-tuner.com/silverstone/Gilham_01.jpg



3) Jan 08 ***8211; GIAC calibrated Porsche 997, ***8220;Wright Tuning***8221; race team qualifies 2nd in the Koni Grand-Am GS Series.

http://www.giacusa.com/news.php?newsid=80



4) Nov 07 ***8211; Torque Fatory***8217;s Audi S4 wins the Sport Compact Car magazine ***8220;Utlimate Street Car Challenge***8221; with GIAC software. The S4 beat some heavy rivals including a big Supra.

http://www.giacusa.com/news.php?newsid=78

http://www.giacusa.com/images/Cover_Dec_2007_Optimized2.jpg



5) Jul 07 ***8211; GIAC tuned EVOMS 996TT hits 9.67seconds at 149.8 mph at Englishtown Raceway, NJ.

http://www.giacusa.com/news.php?newsid=71

http://www.giacusa.com/images/evomstimeboard.gif



6) Apr 07 - GIAC tuned Speed Gallery 996TT finishes 2nd in Redline Time Attack in 4wd unlimited class.

http://www.giacusa.com/news.php?newsid=68



7) Feb 07 ***8211; GIAC launch a software upgrade package for the Bentley W12 Quad Turbo. The software upgrade provides switchable software modes and is unofficially sold through some Bentley dealerships giving upto an additional 150hp and 150ftlbs of torque!

http://www.giacusa.com/news.php?newsid=66

http://www.giacusa.com/images/bentleycgtc.jpg




Anyone who takes the time to study these links and/or study GIAC***8217;s achievements and track record would have to be ***8220;clueless***8221; to believe what ESS Tuning and Active Autowerke believe, when they say that our GIAC software for the E46 M3 Stg1&2 supercharger kits is ***8220;stock***8221; !

[Asbjorn@ESS]

I see you must not like my responses much since they mysteriously disappear..

Again : As I said, EV1 type refers to the rectangular electrical connection used on most BMW's including the M52TU/M54. Our injectors are not the pin type single spray. It is a multi cone injector designed for multivalve engines and we have never had any kind of injector related issues. Our Bosch injectors are top notch and used by top tuners throughout the world.

You are aware that VAG and Porsche turbo software is extremely simple to tune compared to proper BMW SC tuning? The VAG/Porsche control systems are designed for boost from the factory. I do some VAG and Porsche software development on the side for other companies and it always amazes me how simple they are to tune compared to a modern BMW system. A proper 997 Turbo tune only takes a few hours to dial in, the VAG ME7 is very simple, and even the newer VAG ME9 is quite easy to do. Attached is a dyno of my last VAG ME9 R&D project on a bone stock 2008 Golf GTI 2.0TFSI, this file took me 10 hours to do from scratch including figuring out the system.

It's not rocket science Nik, even if you seem to think so..

[TaZaM3]

Wow very informative thread here!!

For once i must say Asbjorn, great info!!

[BimmerDude18]

Wow very informative thread here!!

For once i must say Asbjorn, great info!!

This is why I love vendor wars, I learn something :rofl:

[DLSJ5]

Wow very informative thread here!!

For once i must say Asbjorn, great info!!

Nevermind that an ESS rep said AA's tuning is "worse" than VF's. :P and that ESS's prides itself in taking AA kits, slaping their ASA blowers on with AA hardware, then an ESS tune, then pat themselves on the back for making more power on a dyno. I think you like Asbjorn now because he's attempting to discredit VF, you could care less about anything he's saying, didn't this whole mess start from AA knowingly taking a VF customers ECU, then saying the customer lied about it, and now the ECU is still not back in the customers possession? Why the hell is Asbjorn even in this in the 1st place?

Hey Asbjorn, chew on this AGAIN: 11.5 at 122 MPH full interior 100 octane, timing CF's at 2-4 on 100 degree+ days on 91 craptane, daily driver 15K miles with the kit, 470WHP SAE corrected, not DIN on 91, LTFT's at +2, AFR at 11.9 under WOT, intake temps around 15-20F more than ambient, idles great, and it runs with a MAF, that's just a little bit better than "runs just fine." Do something similiar with a "visible" or "transparant", customers E46 M3, and I'll be glad to give you credit and congrats, it seems you have trouble with giving anyone credit where it's due, instead you mock them, it "runs just fine," humble up a bit Ash.

Fancy talk is one thing, actual results and tangible evidence is another, I think most people will take the latter. I know you'll agree with this Vik, one things for sure AA and VF have TONS of kits across this country maybe the world with plenty of satisfied customers that are VERY vocal about them, we see and hear about them all the time on the forums, on youtube, on dragtimes, etc. Although they post nice dyno's, and their kits look pretty in pictures, I've heard of one ESS E46 M3 car, and that it never quite ran right and also the loaded car from time to time that's in Europe though, hardly exciting to people here.

Mike's right, these tuner war threads have probably accomplished one thing, people that were on the fence about getting a kit from AA or VF, may chose not too, and that's a shame. :(

[EIAlfonso]

This VF software is amazing in one respect, it has placed ESS and AA on the same side of the fence.

[DLSJ5]

This VF software is amazing in one respect, it has placed ESS and AA on the same side of the fence.

:rofl:

[azjimi]

Like bong resin?

lol:thumbsup:

[azjimi]

This is why I love vendor wars, I learn something :rofl:

Yeah, I would have to agree...you have to wade through some mild unpleasantness, but there is a lot of info to be gained.

[HighBoostin330]

Nevermind that an ESS rep said AA's tuning is "worse" than VF's. :P and that ESS's prides itself in taking AA kits, slaping their ASA blowers on with AA hardware, then an ESS tune, then pat themselves on the back for making more power on a dyno. I think you like Asbjorn now because he's attempting to discredit VF, you could care less about anything he's saying, didn't this whole mess start from AA knowingly taking a VF customers ECU, then saying the customer lied about it, and now the ECU is still not back in the customers possession? Why the hell is Asbjorn even in this in the 1st place?

Hey Asbjorn, chew on this AGAIN: 11.5 at 122 MPH full interior 100 octane, timing CF's at 2-4 on 100 degree+ days on 91 craptane, daily driver 15K miles with the kit, 470WHP SAE corrected, not DIN on 91, LTFT's at +2, AFR at 11.9 under WOT, intake temps around 15-20F more than ambient, idles great, and it runs with a MAF, that's just a little bit better than "runs just fine." Do something similiar with a "visible" or "transparant", customers E46 M3, and I'll be glad to give you credit and congrats, it seems you have trouble with giving anyone credit where it's due, instead you mock them, it "runs just fine," humble up a bit Ash.

Fancy talk is one thing, actual results and tangible evidence is another, I think most people will take the latter. I know you'll agree with this Vik, one things for sure AA and VF have TONS of kits across this country maybe the world with plenty of satisfied customers that are VERY vocal about them, we see and hear about them all the time on the forums, on youtube, on dragtimes, etc. Although they post nice dyno's, and their kits look pretty in pictures, I've heard of one ESS E46 M3 car, and that it never quite ran right and also the loaded car from time to time that's in Europe though, hardly exciting to people here.

Mike's right, these tuner war threads have probably accomplished one thing, people that were on the fence about getting a kit from AA or VF, may chose not too, and that's a shame. :(

FYI, just because it isn't on the forums or dragtimes.com doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My friend up on Seattle, Washington has the ESS E46 M3 S/C kit utilizing the Vortech compressor, same generation as Loaded. He bought it in August of 2005.

[DLSJ5]

FYI, just because it isn't on the forums or dragtimes.com doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My friend up on Seattle, Washington has the ESS E46 M3 S/C kit utilizing the Vortech compressor, same generation as Loaded. He bought it in August of 2005.

:thumbsup: Never said they didn't exsist though. Has he done any dyno's, 1/4 mile runs, 60-130, comparo's vids, etc.? I'd love to see 'em.

[Ravij]

:thumbsup: Never said they didn't exsist though. Has he done any dyno's, 1/4 mile runs, 60-130, comparo's vids, etc.? I'd love to see 'em.

I know of him....

He was tring to sell it awhile back...:hmm: He was having slight problems with the kit... if im not mistaken!

I know my vf stg2 would murder him though!

[Asbjorn@ESS]

I know of him....

He was tring to sell it awhile back...:hmm: He was having slight problems with the kit... if im not mistaken!

I know my vf stg2 would murder him though!

The gentleman in question did not have any kit problems, he had an emissions problem since his car would obviously not pass with headers and no cats installed. The ESS VT2 has had outstanding reliability over the years with virtually no problems on the 100+ kits sold worldwide.

I would hope the VF Stage 2 is faster than the old ESS VT2 5PSI kit though. It runs almost twice the boost.. The VT2 5PSI was a very conservative 390-400whp kit designed back in 2002. The same kit has been pushed to 570+whp on pump 93 fuel with new pistons and 13PSI boost, and it also holds the Nürburgring Nordschliefe track record for street legal cars. I would love to see you murder the ESS VT in that configuration.. :4ngie:

Fact of the matter is that the VF Vortech based S54 kit is a nice kit, it is way to heavy for my taste, but still a nice kit. Software wise there are many ways to achieve the goal, and we all have different preferences of what is the "correct" way. I am just for presenting the facts the way they are and let the customers decide for themselves.

[AckM3]

The gentleman in question did not have any kit problems, he had an emissions problem since his car would obviously not pass with headers and no cats installed.

Are you sure we're referring to the same person? Because the gentleman Ravi and I are talking about with an ESS SC'd M3 has SS v2 headers and SS race cats with O2 sensors installed. What am I missing here?