subframe reminder for the FI community

[TxZHP04]

Doing some work on the car this morning... guess what I found.

Yep, a small crack near the subframe mount. I couldn't even see it until I wiped away all the dirt and grime.

Since there's no major tear yet, I'm hoping that the crack can be welded together and the Turner kit installed and everything will be good. Don't know if I even want to bother with the whole BMWNA thing.

Wonder if I have the first '04 with this problem? I have 70k on the car, almost 5k with the SC.

275632

Just a reminder to reinforce yours, or at least keep a close eye on this, as this seems to be inevitable.

[bigjae1976]

:yikes:I have an 04 with 72k on it...6k on the superchager. I guess I'll have to take a closer look.

I have the TMS reinforcement in my garage waiting to be installed. I guess I'll have to get on this sooner rather than later.

[SeanC]

man that sucks... I think you're better off just welding and installing the Turner reinforcements. BMWNA will probably deny since this is a FI car. But you may want to remove the SC and try that way, which is not worth doing IMO...

[BartenderPlease]

man that sucks... I think you're better off just welding and installing the Turner reinforcements. BMWNA will probably deny since this is a FI car. But you may want to remove the SC and try that way, which is not doing worth IMO...

Fail. But I agree. :rofl:

[SeanC]

Fail. But I agree. :rofl:

LOL fixed..

[TxZHP04]

man that sucks... I think you're better off just welding and installing the Turner reinforcements. BMWNA will probably deny since this is a FI car. But you may want to remove the SC and try that way, which is not worth doing IMO...

Maybe, although I think somewhere in the depths of the really big thread on this subject someone claimed to have had BMW fix it in spite of a SC (I'm not reading it again to find out for sure though). When the majority of cars experiencing this aren't modded at all, it would be tough for them to deny me.

That said, there are a number of pluses to NOT dealing with BMWNA on this. The resolution will be quicker and come with less hassle. Nobody seems to know exactly what BMW does when they repair this and whether it's any stronger when they're done than it was originally. "Good as new" isn't good enough for me at this point. The Turner kit reinforces the structure and has been proven in high hp race cars. It may cost me a bit more $$ but I'd rather go with a solution more likely to last on my modified car.

I will, however, report the failure to BMWNA so that they can add it to their statistics on the subject.

[Activ3]

I'd say just weld it and put the TMS kit in.

[aggieE46]

Man, so sorry. Are you having Chad do the fix for you?

I talked to him about 3 weeks ago regarding subframe issues. He said he hadn't seen one in 3 years, and then had 2 people come in on the same day with tears.

[TxZHP04]

Man, so sorry. Are you having Chad do the fix for you?

I talked to him about 3 weeks ago regarding subframe issues. He said he hadn't seen one in 3 years, and then had 2 people come in on the same day with tears.

Probably so, I've been planning to talk to him about doing my clutch, flywheel, motor mounts, and guibo (I'm getting very tired of my clanking dual mass fly - afraid it's going to fly apart one day). Guess I'll just add this to the list along with the Turner sway bar mount reinforcement, new subframe bushings, and anything else that it would make sense to replace while the subframe is out.

Guess now I'll have to defer the suspension upgrade for a little while. :(

[fmzip]

sorry to see that bud............

[bigjae1976]

Probably so, I've been planning to talk to him about doing my clutch, flywheel, motor mounts, and guibo (I'm getting very tired of my clanking dual mass fly - afraid it's going to fly apart one day). Guess I'll just add this to the list along with the Turner sway bar mount reinforcement, new subframe bushings, and anything else that it would make sense to replace while the subframe is out.

Guess now I'll have to defer the suspension upgrade for a little while. :(

Let us know how much he quotes you for the reinforcement install.

Wouldn't it be a great time to do suspension upgrades since the whole rear end will be disassembled anyway?

[TxZHP04]

Let us know how much he quotes you for the reinforcement install.

Wouldn't it be a great time to do suspension upgrades since the whole rear end will be disassembled anyway?

Shocks and springs really aren't a big deal, was planning to DIY (or should I say DIM?) so labor on the suspension isn't an issue. After paying for the necessary repairs, the checkbook will need to recover a bit before I drop big $$ on suspension upgrades. Never know what emergency might strike next.

I spoke with TMS about the reinforcement months ago. They advise approx 15 hours at your local labor rates. Haven't discussed this with Chad yet.

[TxZHP04]

sorry to see that bud............

Thanks man. I figured it would happen eventually, just not quite so soon.

[rumrunnr03]

Doing some work on the car this morning... guess what I found.

Yep, a small crack near the subframe mount. I couldn't even see it until I wiped away all the dirt and grime.

Since there's no major tear yet, I'm hoping that the crack can be welded together and the Turner kit installed and everything will be good. Don't know if I even want to bother with the whole BMWNA thing.

Wonder if I have the first '04 with this problem? I have 70k on the car, almost 5k with the SC.

275632

Just a reminder to reinforce yours, or at least keep a close eye on this, as this seems to be inevitable.

How much track time if any do you have on your ride?

[TxZHP04]

No track time and I don't really do drop clutch launches. No suspension mods so far other than H&R sways. I do have an ESS TS2+ SC and 3.07 LSD.

The subframe mounts are an inherent weakness of the e46. No doubt the SC and LSD hastened the failure but I do believe it was inevitable. I don't really even have all that many miles on the SC yet.

It will be interesting to see the condition of the subframe bushings when they come out and whether they may have contributed to the problem.

[rumrunnr03]

No track time and I don't really do drop clutch launches. No suspension mods so far other than H&R sways. I do have an ESS TS2+ SC and 3.07 LSD.

The subframe mounts are an inherent weakness of the e46. No doubt the SC and LSD hastened the failure but I do believe it was inevitable. I don't really even have all that many miles on the SC yet.

It will be interesting to see the condition of the subframe bushings when they come out and whether they may have contributed to the problem.

I can't find anywhere that I can purchase subframe bushings for my 04 330.

[fmzip]

Thanks man. I figured it would happen eventually, just not quite so soon.

I am having a hard time recognizing where that area is underneath the car

[TxZHP04]

I am having a hard time recognizing where that area is underneath the car

That picture basically shows the area in between the LR subframe bushing and rear diff bushing, behind the sway bar bracket.

That's the sway bar at the bottom of the picture. The brass looking bracket is the driver's side sway bar bracket. The left side of the picture shows about a quarter of the subframe bushing and part of the subframe where it mounts to the body.

[TxZHP04]

I can't find anywhere that I can purchase subframe bushings for my 04 330.

For OEM rubber bushings try Tischer, Desert Motor Works, or probably many of the other forum sponsors.

[aggieE46]

That's one reason that I'm trying to get a few bucks together to replace everything. Makes me nervous.


It will be interesting to see the condition of the subframe bushings when they come out and whether they may have contributed to the problem.

[bigjae1976]

I spoke with TMS about the reinforcement months ago. They advise approx 15 hours at your local labor rates. Haven't discussed this with Chad yet.

Yeah, I was figuring around $1k to install. The shop I use charges $78 per hour so the total would come to around $1180.

I can't find anywhere that I can purchase subframe bushings for my 04 330.

I found these...

Urethane Subframe Bushings (http://store.bimmerworld.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=bimmerworl&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=489544093&Count2=406684517&CategoryID=20&Target=products.asp)

Go to "Urethane Bushings" and then scroll down towards the bottom.

[aggieE46]

^I'm going with those.

[EIAlfonso]

Shocks and springs really aren't a big deal, was planning to DIY (or should I say DIM?) so labor on the suspension isn't an issue. After paying for the necessary repairs, the checkbook will need to recover a bit before I drop big $$ on suspension upgrades. Never know what emergency might strike next.

I spoke with TMS about the reinforcement months ago. They advise approx 15 hours at your local labor rates. Haven't discussed this with Chad yet.

If I remember correctly I believe he quoted me $1,000 at one time but that was when gas was below 3$

gl

[bigjae1976]

^I'm going with those.

x2...

So besides:

1. installing the TMS kit
2. replacing the subframe bushings

...is there anything else that should be done?

[TxZHP04]

I found these...

Urethane Subframe Bushings (http://store.bimmerworld.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=bimmerworl&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=489544093&Count2=406684517&CategoryID=20&Target=products.asp)

Go to "Urethane Bushings" and then scroll down towards the bottom.

Anybody know just exactly how much drivetrain noise these transmit? With the LSD, I worry about that a little more... especially later on as it starts to age.

Meyle makes HD mounts for the front 2 bushings but oddly no HD for the rear bushings. I may just go this route.

[rumrunnr03]

Yeah, I was figuring around $1k to install. The shop I use charges $78 per hour so the total would come to around $1180.



I found these...

Urethane Subframe Bushings (http://store.bimmerworld.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=bimmerworl&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=489544093&Count2=406684517&CategoryID=20&Target=products.asp)

Go to "Urethane Bushings" and then scroll down towards the bottom.

Thank you. These must be new because they didn't have an e46 option on there awhile ago. Is the softening/cracking of the stock bushings the main contributor to the cracks, or is it a combo of that and the lsd? if no cracks are found when putting the new ones on, would there be any more concern for cracking in the future?

[TxZHP04]

Thank you. These must be new because they didn't have an e46 option on there awhile ago. Is the softening/cracking of the stock bushings the main contributor to the cracks, or is it a combo of that and the lsd? if no cracks are found when putting the new ones on, would there be any more concern for cracking in the future?

It's just a weak point in the structure. Period. I don't believe there is any one single cause - ie, there is no definitive evidence that this problem is linked to the subframe bushings. Powertrain and suspension modifications may increase the likelihood or accelerate the process but it should ALWAYS be a concern in the back of your mind. Even stock e46s driven by grandmothers have had failures. You can either get it reinforced or wait for it to fail. If you're not heavily modded, you have a really good chance of getting BMWNA to fix it for you when it fails even if you're out of warranty. I think even one or two people with modified cars may have had luck getting BMW to cover it.

[bigjae1976]

Anybody know just exactly how much drivetrain noise these transmit? With the LSD, I worry about that a little more... especially later on as it starts to age.

Meyle makes HD mounts for the front 2 bushings but oddly no HD for the rear bushings. I may just go this route.

UUC has urethane subframe bushing for E30/E36 which they advertise as "For racing applications only".

I don't really care, as long as they'll hold up a lot longer than the OEM rubber bushings. I'll deal with a little extra noise and vibration.

[TxZHP04]

Well, the Turner reinforcement kit should be here tomorrow and the car goes in for repair on Monday. Driving like my grandmother may kill me in the mean time. If the crack shows any signs of getting worse, it gets parked until Monday.

[fmzip]

The way my car luck has been going lately, I'm not even attempting to look at my subframe! :)

[TxZHP04]

The way my car luck has been going lately, I'm not even attempting to look at my subframe! :)

Cost of the repair goes up tremendously as the damage gets worse. It's better to catch it early.

On the bright side, I believe your vert is already somewhat better reinforced in this region. I've seen pics but I can't recall how it all ties together.

[fmzip]

You are right about it being well supported under there, there are extra cross connections in certain areas to aid in rigidity with the lack of a roof.

Is it certain that there has been subframe failures on verts as well?

[TxZHP04]

You are right about it being well supported under there, there are extra cross connections in certain areas to aid in rigidity with the lack of a roof.

Is it certain that there has been subframe failures on verts as well?

I can't say that I've ever heard of a failure on a vert. I'd also never heard of a failure on an 04 model until mine. I have heard of failures on M3s, which have very similar bracing to the non-M verts. And of course, FI changes everything.

Something else I thought about the other day was the fact that my rear diff bushing had cracked late last year. Things weren't really clunking around back there before I found it and had it replaced but it may have created additional stress in the region at the time.

[TxZHP04]

Well, got my car back last Thursday before the holiday weekend. Sure was nice to be able to romp on it again.

No other damage aside from the initial crack which was easily welded up. One of the subframe bushings that got replaced was starting to tear so looks like I was due for a bushing replacement anyway.

[fmzip]

So what did you end up using for bushing and how many hours of install did they charge you for?

I had a ZHP muffler welded in the other day by a really good welder, I plan to have him do the TMS kit for me soon......

[TxZHP04]

So what did you end up using for bushing and how many hours of install did they charge you for?

I had a ZHP muffler welded in the other day by a really good welder, I plan to have him do the TMS kit for me soon......

I went with OEM style rubber bushings from Meyle. They advertise the front bushings as being HD. Not willing to risk additional drivetrain noise in the cabin with poly.

15 hours is probably about right for just the subframe kit. I also had the sway bar tabs reinforced, bushings swapped, and a few other minor things done while it was in.

Ready to bleed your brakes again? :eek:

[fmzip]

I
Ready to bleed your brakes again? :eek:

:rofl:

This time I'll figure out a way to cap them while the subframe is out if I DIY.

Stu seemed to rip his subframe out fairly easily....I just need to buy a compressor for this task!

[aggieE46]

Glad you got it back. Any difference with the HD mounts?

Man, Chad got you in and out quickly!

[TxZHP04]

Glad you got it back. Any difference with the HD mounts?

Man, Chad got you in and out quickly!

Nothing I wouldn't attribute to simply having new bushings.

[Boosted_ZHP]

Damn man im sorry. Good luck with that.

[TxZHP04]

Damn man im sorry. Good luck with that.

Thanks man. The car is better than new now, so hopefully I won't have to worry about it ever again.

[enelson325]

just weld and put the TMS kit on

[TxZHP04]

just weld and put the TMS kit on

Thanks for the feedback but if you'll read through the entire thread, you'll notice that the work you suggested was completed last week.

[aggieE46]

Hey, I hear there's a new movie coming out. It's called Star Wars. Should be good.

Oh wait, I'm not up to speed.