s.c with intercooler

[ozz]

hello i have a vortech s/chttp://i26.tinypic.com/2jafchz.jpg
i want to install a intercooler i have u few questions
.what kind of intercooler do i take ?
.does de size matter how big should it be ?
.is the setup:
1.airfilter intercooler s/c intake of the motor .
2.airfilter s/c intercooler intake of the motor.
.do i change settings of the software after i install the intercooler.
are there people that have some kind of setup and do want to show pics

thnx voor the information people that have answers

[paraklas]

How much pressure (psi) does your s/c make?

[Activ3]

Thats a hard design to intercool, simply because of space issues. If you notice, it'd be pretty hard to route piping down to an intercooler and back upwards to the TB with that blower.

[ozz]

How much pressure (psi) does your s/c make?
4.5 psi do you run at 8 psi with only a s/c or do you have other mods with your engine ?

[ozz]

Thats a hard design to intercool, simply because of space issues. If you notice, it'd be pretty hard to route piping down to an intercooler and back upwards to the TB with that blower. thats were i`m afraid for are there some other things i can do to give my s/c cooler air ?

[Kanaljen]

Great timing! I have a VT too, and thinking about lowering the intake air..

You can do two things..

water to air setup.. This way, you only need room for water hoses to and from a front mounted heat exchanger. (the heat exchanger sit on top of the intake manifold so you only need air tubing to and from that location..) Cons with this setup is added complexity dealing with water pump and maybe a fan.. Also the heat exchanger can't be that big so the pressure drop could be more than with an air to air setup.

Or, you can try to do air to air and have the challange to route 3-4" tubing back and forth..

I wanted a rough idea of the max size of a front mounted heat exchanger (for air to air) and called Active. They simply told me that they can sell me a kit but not give me the heigh and width since that is "propriatary info".. How can it be when anyone with it in the grill can just grab a tape measurer and get the info.... Anyway, this great forum should be able to provide that info.

You want as little pressure drop as possible... So I figure (maybe wrongfully so) that you want the tubing as thick as possible and the heat exchanger and large as possible...

Also, think about this.. some say that you don't gain much without cranking up the psi (smaller pulley) since you will have a drop in psi since the air is cooled and therefore reduced in volume... which offsets the pros that the denser air (more O2 in same volume)..

Keep me in the loop since we're thinking about doing the same thing!

[Kanaljen]

Activ3,

How does your design look? I assume you have a centrifugal blower together with a front mounted IC... Do you have any pics laying around of your engine bay?

You have some nice hp numbers.. what else have you done to your ride? How can you push 14psi?


Thats a hard design to intercool, simply because of space issues. If you notice, it'd be pretty hard to route piping down to an intercooler and back upwards to the TB with that blower.

[paraklas]

Great timing! I have a VT too, and thinking about lowering the intake air..

You can do two things..

water to air setup.. This way, you only need room for water hoses to and from a front mounted heat exchanger. (the heat exchanger sit on top of the intake manifold so you only need air tubing to and from that location..) Cons with this setup is added complexity dealing with water pump and maybe a fan.. Also the heat exchanger can't be that big so the pressure drop could be more than with an air to air setup.

Or, you can try to do air to air and have the challange to route 3-4" tubing back and forth..

I wanted a rough idea of the max size of a front mounted heat exchanger (for air to air) and called Active. They simply told me that they can sell me a kit but not give me the heigh and width since that is "propriatary info".. How can it be when anyone with it in the grill can just grab a tape measurer and get the info.... Anyway, this great forum should be able to provide that info.

You want as little pressure drop as possible... So I figure (maybe wrongfully so) that you want the tubing as thick as possible and the heat exchanger and large as possible...

Also, think about this.. some say that you don't gain much without cranking up the psi (smaller pulley) since you will have a drop in psi since the air is cooled and therefore reduced in volume... which offsets the pros that the denser air (more O2 in same volume)..

Keep me in the loop since we're thinking about doing the same thing!

This is the water-to-air setup we (ESS TS2 setup) have. As you can see the hoses are relatively thin.

heat exchanger
http://www.argyrides.eu/bmw/performance/ess_supercharger/images_b/dscf1934kc8.jpg

Hoses
http://www.argyrides.eu/bmw/performance/ess_supercharger/images_b/dscf1936an8.jpg

water pump
http://www.argyrides.eu/bmw/performance/ess_supercharger/images_b/dscf1953fi3.jpg

intake manifold with the liquid intercooling core inside
http://www.argyrides.eu/bmw/performance/ess_supercharger/images_b/dscf1940pp7.jpg

http://www.argyrides.eu/bmw/performance/ess_supercharger/images_d/DSCF2154.JPG

[paraklas]

4.5 psi do you run at 8 psi with only a s/c or do you have other mods with your engine ?

K&N Panel filter :)

[ozz]

K&N Panel filter :)

the mechanics say to me that when i push te pressure up above 4.5 psi i must do other mods to my engine.
can i put more pressure whitout dammage my engine ?

[ozz]

Great timing! I have a VT too, and thinking about lowering the intake air..

You can do two things..

water to air setup.. This way, you only need room for water hoses to and from a front mounted heat exchanger. (the heat exchanger sit on top of the intake manifold so you only need air tubing to and from that location..) Cons with this setup is added complexity dealing with water pump and maybe a fan.. Also the heat exchanger can't be that big so the pressure drop could be more than with an air to air setup.

Or, you can try to do air to air and have the challange to route 3-4" tubing back and forth..

I wanted a rough idea of the max size of a front mounted heat exchanger (for air to air) and called Active. They simply told me that they can sell me a kit but not give me the heigh and width since that is "propriatary info".. How can it be when anyone with it in the grill can just grab a tape measurer and get the info.... Anyway, this great forum should be able to provide that info.

You want as little pressure drop as possible... So I figure (maybe wrongfully so) that you want the tubing as thick as possible and the heat exchanger and large as possible...

Also, think about this.. some say that you don't gain much without cranking up the psi (smaller pulley) since you will have a drop in psi since the air is cooled and therefore reduced in volume... which offsets the pros that the denser air (more O2 in same volume)..

Keep me in the loop since we're thinking about doing the same thing!

so you also have a vortech do you have pics of your setup

[Kanaljen]

Yeah, that TS2 setup with the cores is a nice one.

This guy (and I) have a centrifugal blower and wanting to add an intercooler (air to air or water to air with a heat exchanger)

The prob with our setups is that there is little space to run 3" piping for air and little space for a heat exchanger close to the TB (for a water to air setup)

I have asked to get some pics of other VT setups WITH intercooler to see what they did. ESS had a stage two kit where they used a super small heat exchanger on top of the manifold.. might be the one way to go but the pressure loss could be substantial..

Cheers,

[Kanaljen]

Yes, running a VT with SW from ESS. Looks pretty much like your setup..

And, I am too thinking about cooling down my intake air.. I'm thinking about a way to get an air to air setup in there althought it's tight.. thinking about a water to air but it's more complex and the heatexchanger ontop of the manifold would have to be very small to fit.. Or, if you want to go all out, a meth or water injection setup..


so you also have a vortech do you have pics of your setup

[Kanaljen]

Active3,

Help us out.. What do you have in there? you must have an IC but maybe you don't run a centrigual blower similar to ours? Do you have a TS maybe?

Do you know of anyone with a VT (or similar) blower WITH an IC? Would like to see some pics to get an idea on how the tubing goes..

I'm thinking you have to go straight down from the TB and also come straight up to the blower.. wonder how much room there is underneith..



Thats a hard design to intercool, simply because of space issues. If you notice, it'd be pretty hard to route piping down to an intercooler and back upwards to the TB with that blower.

[ozz]

the problem is that my air filter sit behind the foglight so the blower gets hot air from the engine .
there is a way to make a setup i made a simle draw is this a option ?
i dont know if it works maybe is this a stupit tought let me know someone.
http://i26.tinypic.com/2hmh646.jpg

[paraklas]

the IC should be after the compressor (compressed air = hot)

[ozz]

if the air is cold before it go into te s/c will the s/c warm the air again ? that short time the air is in the s/c will warm it?
is this not an option ?

[GIO_21]

Yes you would need the intercooler after the blower, so it would be air intake through the blower then down out of the blower into the intercooler back up to the throttle body.

[paraklas]

if the air is cold before it go into te s/c will the s/c warm the air again ? that short time the air is in the s/c will warm it?
is this not an option ?

What's the point of the IC the way you designed it? You are trying to cool air that has entered 20cm of tube. You can't drop it below the environmental temperature. The air will get hot during compression, it's physics. It's after the compression that you need to cool it down

[Activ3]

I'm pretty sure piping for the Vortech won't work with a FMIC on our car, because there is no space. I'd suggest trying a water to air, or even just spraying water/alcohol or meth as a coolant. You're only on 4.5psi, so a w/a setup would be fine IMO.

I have a centri setup also, but the blower I have is angled differently allowing space for FMIC piping.

[ozz]

I'm pretty sure piping for the Vortech won't work with a FMIC on our car, because there is no space. I'd suggest trying a water to air, or even just spraying water/alcohol or meth as a coolant. You're only on 4.5psi, so a w/a setup would be fine IMO.

I have a centri setup also, but the blower I have is angled differently allowing space for FMIC piping.

were do i find a water to air ? do you have a site were i can find something for my setup ?

[Kanaljen]

You have to puzzle it together yourself. Some sites have kits (with pump, etc) but you will find that it's very hard to find an IC that will be big enough to be efficient and small enough to fit under the hood...

This site has some cheap stuff...
http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=216&products_id=1034&osCsid=fc011186b1378f42f041acb21699647e

Cheers!

were do i find a water to air ? do you have a site were i can find something for my setup ?

[Klimaxx805]

While I'd rather have an air/water setup there's just no room under the hood for one. The only way to do it would be to make it part of the manifold like VF did for the E46 M3. Your best option is to go with an air/air intercooler. You should send your supercharger to Vortech and have the volute changed from a curved discharge to straight. Then you can re-clock the volute down to blow into the intercooler pipe. You would not want the intercooler before the blower like in the drawing. It would just heat back up the cool air.

[ozz]

thanx you al for te good information !

[Gatorsurgeon]

Here's an intercooled vortech supercharger:

[Kanaljen]

Nice!!

Thanks for sharing. The VT I have has the outlet towards pointing straight back (towards the TB).

I'm building a water to air kit right now with a 24x12x1 heat exchanger, a Bosch water pump and an intercooler from an old Nissan turbo (it's about 11x8x2.5, so it should fit under the hood close to the TB)

We shall see... I'm still pondering about how to monitor the system; getting reading of the before/after air temp and/or water pressure.




Here's an intercooled vortech supercharger:

[ozz]

Here's an intercooled vortech supercharger:


that`s nice thanx ! now i have to find that intercooler thats a problem i think it not looks like a usual inter cooler

[ozz]

i was searching on the net and i found this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Water-to-Air-Turbo-Charge-Cooler-Intercooler-type-2_W0QQitemZ320248793441QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320248793441&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

[ozz]

vf enginering use the same vortech s/c like mine
they have a charge cooler water to air for that kit
i can not find pics of that cooler or the setup yhe pics on the site only shows the s/c.
that cooler can be the ultimate solution for my problem !
are there people with some pics ?

[Kanaljen]

Yeah, lots of those for sale all over.. The prob is that the core is usually 4.5" which would not fit under the hood..

i was searching on the net and i found this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Water-to-Air-Turbo-Charge-Cooler-Intercooler-type-2_W0QQitemZ320248793441QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320248793441&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

[Kanaljen]

ESS has a stage two liquid intercooler kit for their VT kit too..

Prob the same design...

The heat exhanger is easy.. lots of room in our cars. you can fit a 24x12x3 without too much trouble. the prob is the intercooler under the hood.. If you find a pick of the ESS kit, you'll see that the intercooler sits ontop of the manifold and is therefore very small.. I think 3.5" is the max height you can fit at that location and even that might be pusing it.

I was thinking about another location... For example, the emtpy spot in the right back corner of the engine bay.. Then, you would have to run tubing to and from the SC, over the manifold.. doable I guess.. I want to keep the length of air tubing between the MAF and TB to a minimum, so I like the idea to squeeze in the intercooler right next to the TB, ontop of the manifold..

I have my heat exchanger on the way (24x12x1) together with a water pump. I also found a flat intercooler that I think should fit.. even modded my front already and waiting for some powdercoated mesh for the front.. Trying to figure out the best way to monitor the whole thing; would be nice with a dual gauge to see the air temp after SC and before intercooling and then the 2nd after intercooling... We'll see how things come together....
vf enginering use the same vortech s/c like mine
they have a charge cooler water to air for that kit
i can not find pics of that cooler or the setup yhe pics on the site only shows the s/c.
that cooler can be the ultimate solution for my problem !
are there people with some pics ?

[Gatorsurgeon]

that`s nice thanx ! now i have to find that intercooler thats a problem i think it not looks like a usual inter cooler

That thing is fabricated by Dinan (or for Dinan by somebody else).

The Dinan kit replaces the whole radiator and radiator support assembly with a bigger radiator (also a double-size oil cooler) and is a pretty big deal to put in. They actually cut part of the frame to do this. The take-home message is that there is room to cram stuff in, even with that big Vortech blower.

Good luck with your project!