330 Front Brake Retro. Pics, Impressions, Etc.

[simsima325]

OK so with the immense help of Stuart (330i_ZHP) I undertook a front 330 brake upgrade on my 325 last weekend. Decided to go with Powerslot slotted rotors from Tirerack, with Hawk HPS Street pads. Everything bolted up perfectly, all you need for the swap is new 330 Caliper and Carrier, which I was able to get from a local shop for $177 shipped to my door. that is the only cost of the upgrade, as the rotors and pads are pretty much the same cost between the 325 and 330. The 330 rotor is ~1.5 inches larger in diameter.

Here are the old Zimmermann X-Drilled rotors and Axxis Deluxe pads. This setup was prone to warping badly, but provided decent stopping power, low dust (pretty grey dust), and decent bite. I was overall disappointed with the setup, mostly because I lived with warped rotors for ~15k miles. FTL.


Front. Yay rust.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280688&stc=1&d=1218145524


Rear.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280689&stc=1&d=1218145524


So off come the calipers. Moar rust.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280690&stc=1&d=1218145524


Yay I stripped a rotor retaining bolt. 1 trip to the dealer and $3 later (well $11, I bought an F1 mouse pad), and we were back in business.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280691&stc=1&d=1218145524


Brake parts strewn about. Calipers and carriers.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280692&stc=1&d=1218145524


Size comparison, the 3.0 calipers are def. beefier. Look nice with the Duplicolor caliper paint on them (applied after grinding off much of the rust and dirt, though it still chipped pretty easily. Whatever, looks good for now).

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280693&stc=1&d=1218145524


Nice looking stainless steel brake lines from Ebay... 1 sprung a leak as we were bleeding the system. More on that later.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280694&stc=1&d=1218145947


Car. Effed up bumper.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280698&stc=1&d=1218145947


So here is the finished product, installed up front. 3.0. Compare the size of this rotor to the brake dust shield, then look at the 2.5 above.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280695&stc=1&d=1218145947


And retaining 2.5 in the rear. To swap over the 3.0 rear brakes, which are def. massive in comparison required new trailing arms etc. to get the e-brake to work. Took the easier route.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280696&stc=1&d=1218145947


And the 3.0 brakes behind my Doublespoke 1's (browned out... these things never get cleaned :lmao: ) Maybe have 2mm clearance to the wonderfully placed wheel weights, but it works.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280697&stc=1&d=1218145947



Impressions:

Well I have a mushy pedal thus far. We did a brake bleed, but it might not have been sufficient. We also had 1 stainless line leak on us, so in replacing that, we may have let more air into the system and not properly bled it. Going to solve this with a visit to my shop in PA on the 30th for a full brake fluid flush.

So that was it, went out and bed the brakes with a series of brake applications from 35, 45 and 60mph. Been driving on them for 5 days now, maybe put on ~130 miles, and the braking is quite consistent, and they really stop once you get your foot into it. The initial inch and a half of brake application is mush and the brakes really aren't there. No bite.

We are using Valvoline DOT3/4 fluid. Should I switch to something else? Really hoping this flush (and installation of the 4th SSBL) does the trick and I get some bitier brakes.

Again, thanks Stuart :bow: Lookin forward to our next project, whenever that is :D

[330i ZHP]

looks great - oh yea, i took the pics

[jpr]

"Mush" is almost exclusively air in the system. What you're feeling is the hydraulic effort being put in to compressing the air in the system rather than pushing the pads against the rotors. The good news is that since you didn't report seeing the ABS warning light it doesn't sound like you got air in the control unit (for which you'd pretty much have to go to the dealership to get corrected). More bleeding/flushing should take care of the mush issue.

[DJ Reminisce]

The initial inch and a half of brake application is mush and the brakes really aren't there. No bite.

:D



:eek:



I'll be replacing my brakes soon too.......but definitely don't want to loose any bite--

Nice write-up

[Rayce185]

Nice writeup!
So what exactly has to be replaced when going with larger brakes? Discs, calipers, pads and carriers?

[NightRunner]

please tell me you didnt actually paint your brake rotors / get spray paint on the face of them. ??? ? ?

:tsk: :tsk: :tsk: :tsk:


dont drive anymore and hope you can get it off of it. as for your brake pads, no clue if you can still use them as is.


thats basically a royal screw up. NOTHING is supposed to be on the brake rotor faces. thats why brake cleaner is super "clean" and leaves absolutely no residue. you're brakes will never work their best and may continue to stay crappy because of that.

[Rayce185]

:rofl:

[simsima325]

highly doubtful, i know many who have used this method while painting hubs and had no ill effects, the bedding process itself takes the top layer of the rotor off as it is!

[NightRunner]

I'm not guessing on this. it may not be a total failure but like i said, it wont be what it could be. you contaminated the pads, got unnecessary crap on the rotor.

i know this is just a crappy video, but its a clean install of how it should be done

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/12877_rotors-replace-check-clean-install-new.htm

I'm just trying to help you get the most from your brakes, thats all. by getting paint on the face you put something unnecessary between the pad and the rotor-which is completely against the point of braking.

[330i ZHP]

i guarantee that if we remove the pads right now - the paint will be gone on the pad material and we can already see that the paint has been 100% removed from the braking surface on the rotors

If a "loss" is there it is negligible

[bmw_chuzo]

nice upgrade man.. how's the stopping power no?

[NorCal Einstein]

That Valvoline brake fluid you used should be pretty cheap. Buy a liter of ATE Super Blue and when you go to your shop, have them use the Super Blue for the flush.
At the least, it is an easier visual indicator for when you have cleared the old fluid from the line. Chances are you have some air in the system.

When I did my brakes a few months ago, I was working the calipers while my friend was on the pedal. While at the time I though we did a good job, I'm almost 90% sure there is some air in the system. I have a pretty mushy pedal on initial depression which could be from the air, or from my crappy Axxis Deluxe pads. I was going to have my shop bleed the system with their power bleeder.....but I crashed my car last week.

[VillanovaGrad]

i dont get why you painted the rotors?!

[jinthekoreankid]

i dont get why you painted the rotors?!

to prevent rust? painting the rotor has absolutely no effect on braking. it will come off as you drive.

I've done this mod a lil while ago but just got around to doing full brakes with BREMBO blanks(no holes)

front(325) vs front (330)
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/JintheKoreanKid/5dae6bce.jpg

rear vs front(330)
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/JintheKoreanKid/0c1e1132.jpg

front one behind my 18" M wheels
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/JintheKoreanKid/374810a2.jpg

after proper bedding, nice golden brown color
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/JintheKoreanKid/d24ce7fd.jpg

[simsima325]

the rotors were painted for 2 reasons, 1 to prevent the rusting that you see on my old setup, and 2, I run black wheels, and the bright silver hub of the Powerslot rotors was something I wasn't interested in.

[VillanovaGrad]

the rotors were painted for 2 reasons, 1 to prevent the rusting that you see on my old setup, and 2, I run black wheels, and the bright silver hub of the Powerslot rotors was something I wasn't interested in.

:dunno: but from my experiences the rust comes off after you drive around and used the brakes a couple times :confused:

[zeshon]

I have been debating this mod for a little while. It would look cool, but you also increase the unsprung weight on the wheels when you do this. I'm supercharged, so it shouldn't be as big a deal, but I still don't know if the positives outweigh the negatives. Is someone smarter than me able to say whether the weight gain is negligible, or if that's something I should consider?

[simsima325]

thats the rust you get after a wash on the surface of the rotor. I was referring to the hub rust. take a look at the first picture :)


BMW Chuzo- braking power is good, after the initial mushy pedal travel, which I hope to resolve. not a night and day difference, but for what it is, i am pleased.

norcal- sorry about ur car :( ya i am being super careful not being used to the extra travel. def. going to go ATE blue with the flush. the valvoline is clear, and my old fluid came out quiiiiite brown, ha.

[VillanovaGrad]

thats the rust you get after a wash on the surface of the rotor. I was referring to the hub rust. take a look at the first picture :)



i see ...
interesting...

[simsima325]

zeshon, i have a slow little 325 and haven't noticed any difference. :dunno:

[VillanovaGrad]

I have been debating this mod for a little while. It would look cool, but you also increase the unsprung weight on the wheels when you do this. I'm supercharged, so it shouldn't be as big a deal, but I still don't know if the positives outweigh the negatives. Is someone smarter than me able to say whether the weight gain is negligible, or if that's something I should consider?

i think the weight gain is so minimal that it wont make any difference in feel
after you ate a full steak dinner from mortons and drive your car does your car feels slower compared to if you were driving it empty stomach?
:rolleyes:

[simsima325]

novagrad, additional unsprung weight affects the car differently than a steak dinner ;) but i would just say I haven't noticed a difference.

[VillanovaGrad]

novagrad, additional unsprung weight affects the car differently than a steak dinner ;) but i would just say I haven't noticed a difference.

lol i know but i think changing to heavier weight rims (replicas) would make more significant different and having lighter brake components ie. slotted/drilled compared to plain rotors also make more impact

i dont count grams on the car lol...

[NorCal Einstein]

norcal- sorry about ur car :( ya i am being super careful not being used to the extra travel. def. going to go ATE blue with the flush. the valvoline is clear, and my old fluid came out quiiiiite brown, ha.

Thanks.
As for the flush, some will swear by the 2 man method, but I find that one a little easier to mess up then using the pressure bleeder.

Really hoping your pedal tightens up when you get this done!

[VillanovaGrad]

i just serviced my brakes and its as no mush at all... better than the my 350z after its same brake job when i had that car lol...
linear brake feel ftw :)

[budman]

nice upgrade B

[simsima325]

my replacement stainless brake line has shipped, but its going to Stuarts house, and he is going on a little vacay, so I will be sticking with what I have until a few days before the brake flush on the 30th.

not worried tho. the stopping power is great now that i've broken it in a bit, so its just the little bit of mush to solve.

[VillanovaGrad]

my replacement stainless brake line has shipped, but its going to Stuarts house, and he is going on a little vacay, so I will be sticking with what I have until a few days before the brake flush on the 30th.

not worried tho. the stopping power is great now that i've broken it in a bit, so its just the little bit of mush to solve.

ss lines definitely helps lol its just makes it so stiff

[330i ZHP]

the line is in DC area and should be delivered tomorrow

[zeshon]

Whats the deal with rear brakes? What all needs to be swapped.

[simsima325]

stuart is on vacation, but he has done the full front and rear 330 upgrade to his 325iT. he can probably fill you in a little bit more on what exactly is involved, but I know it requires 330 trailing arms and RTABs. if you find a wrecked 330, all of the parts will be there, and bolt directly on a 325. Unsure of 328 fitment, but I would assume it would fit.

[330i ZHP]

yes - to properly swap the 330 brakes front and rear requires the rear trailing arms, drive axles, output shafts for the diff and the complete brake assemblies with dust shields etc

[hondo78]

Nice write up-

1. Did you change the backing plates as well? Or do they line up with the calipers as is, just 3/4 inch smaller.

2. As for the rears, which control arm needs replacing? And are the arms ready for the brackets and modification.

3. Is the Master cyl larger in the 330? If the piston is larger the master cyl may need to be upgraded as well?

[330i ZHP]

the "backing plates" on the front do not need to be changed - but do need to be for the larger brakes on the rear

you do not need to replace the control arms at all - but you do need to swap the trailing arm as a complete assembly from a donor car

the master cly for 325 and 330 are identical according to bmw parts as are the DSC control unit and the vacuum units

[hondo78]

Thanks Stuart-

Thanks for the tip on the rear trailing arms and master cyl, this is valueble information when planning for the complete change over in a single weekend

On the trailing arm if purchased complete, should I ask for the parking brakes to be left intact? I assume they are larger. I tend to buy drilled and slotted rotors for everything but the motorhome so far... (You should see my BBQ)

I like to go into projects with my eyes open, not my wallet.

Tough sport wagon pic!

[simsima325]

final stainless steel brake line went in, and we flushed the system a little more, there was some funky bubbling.

the pedal feel is good, still slight travel to it, but its firmer and feels nice. no longer mush. still going forward with ATE blue and a full flush at my indy shop on the 30th.

[shagone]

I think i may have leak on my stainless steel front drivers side brake line. I also got the generic ss lines and they worked fine for a couple of months with my stock size 328i zimmerman cross drilled rotors and Axxis deluxe premium? pads that give off:hmm: way less dust but the other day my brake light came on. the fuid was a bit low so i topped it off with the valvoline synthetic stuff and it was fine for a few days but today it is back on and there is fluid all over my wheel eating the clearcoat off of the forged polished aluminum! Damn! i can see fluid dripping from the low point of the ss line and a bubble in the teflon outer casing. everything seems tight so i'm assumimg i have a bad line?? what do you guys think or reccomend? i might spring for some brand name DOT approved ss lines. what are some good ones at a fair price? UUC? BAVAUTO? are the APEXCONE.com $99 ones any good? i may just put the original line back on for now if i didn't toss it, well i have no other choice i guesss.

[simsima325]

Turner Motorsport SS lines are good from what I hear.

Hope this doesn't happen to me! Take care of this ASAP tho, sounds a little dangerous. GL.

[simsima325]

Oh and to update, the brakes feel great now, a full flush and ATE blue improved the feel and tightened up the travel a little bit. :) I can recommend this method for anyone suffering from a bit too much pedal travel.

[shagone]

Thanks. i'll try the TMS lines and the ATE blue flush.:thumbsup:

[330i ZHP]

I think i may have leak on my stainless steel front drivers side brake line. I also got the generic ss lines and they worked fine for a couple of months with my stock size 328i zimmerman cross drilled rotors and Axxis deluxe premium? pads that give off:hmm: way less dust but the other day my brake light came on. the fuid was a bit low so i topped it off with the valvoline synthetic stuff and it was fine for a few days but today it is back on and there is fluid all over my wheel eating the clearcoat off of the forged polished aluminum! Damn! i can see fluid dripping from the low point of the ss line and a bubble in the teflon outer casing. everything seems tight so i'm assumimg i have a bad line?? what do you guys think or reccomend? i might spring for some brand name DOT approved ss lines. what are some good ones at a fair price? UUC? BAVAUTO? are the APEXCONE.com $99 ones any good? i may just put the original line back on for now if i didn't toss it, well i have no other choice i guesss.

Goodrich are some of the best and I believe they are sold through TMS

And I will have to go inspect mine for any signs of damage or leakage

[n2Bimmer]

nice DIY, the only reason why im not doing this is because your adding unneeded weight to the worste part of the car, you realize that your not going to get more stoping power right, just fade resistance. but hey nice.

[Bimmer Dude Xi]

the brake parts i need from a 330 xi to go on my 325 xi is the larger rotor, the carrier and the calipers?

[330i ZHP]

yes, and pads

[Bimmer Dude Xi]

yes, and pads

One concern, with the upgrade i must have larger wheels for the clearance? minimum 17"?

[330i ZHP]

17 minimum and confirm the 17 will fit over 330 almost 13" (325 millimeters = 12.7952756 in) brakes

[Bimmer Dude Xi]

did he get the brake flush done? If so, how much of a difference did it make compared to the original?

[simsima325]

Oh and to update, the brakes feel great now, a full flush and ATE blue improved the feel and tightened up the travel a little bit. :) I can recommend this method for anyone suffering from a bit too much pedal travel.

:)

[Bimmer Dude Xi]

:)

Sounds good, I guess this an better alternative than going with big brake kits

[madchef]

Wow, I would never have painted my rotors. Now that you've been driving, is the paint off the rotors now? (and onto the pads?)

[snikwad]

ok, i wanna do this...

[n2Bimmer]

Wow, I would never have painted my rotors. Now that you've been driving, is the paint off the rotors now? (and onto the pads?)

obviously you have to wait for the paint to dry before you use it, and when it dry's its dry , you wont get any on your pads, and if the paint is on your rotor on step on the brake and the paint will just rub off or burn off. Ask me how i know, because ive done this my self with great results.

[simsima325]

obviously you have to wait for the paint to dry before you use it, and when it dry's its dry , you wont get any on your pads, and if the paint is on your rotor on step on the brake and the paint will just rub off or burn off. Ask me how i know, because ive done this my self with great results.

this is correct, and i've had the passenger front assembly apart after this install, maybe 1500 miles on the setup, and there was no evidence of a paint buildup or anything of that nature.

bedding took care of the dry paint, thats for sure :lmao: and my hubs look great, not as seen in the BEFORE pics :)

[Rayce185]

SO all that's needed for the front DIY are the rotors, pads, calipers and caliper carriers?

[simsima325]

Yes, it is a direct bolt up.

[n2Bimmer]

i would love to do this as i have hooks up to a junk yard and can get these in my hands very easily but i dont want to add anymore weight to the car

[Rayce185]

Hmm, do you think it's a direct swap for 323 brakes too? :eeps:

[330i ZHP]

hmm, do you think it's a direct swap for 323 brakes too? :eeps:

lbk?

[simsima325]

should be direct for 323 with the same parts.

and anyone who is afraid of the weight gain is silly. that would mean you track your car, and in that case, its a worthy sacrifice for the reduced brake fade. :dunno:

[snikwad]

what about 330 brakes on a 328, direct swap also?

[simsima325]

(Disclaimer) I don't have a 323 or 328, but yes.

[snikwad]

hahah, ok, disclaimer noted. thanks.

[Rayce185]

lbk?wut?

should be direct for 323 with the same parts.

and anyone who is afraid of the weight gain is silly. that would mean you track your car, and in that case, its a worthy sacrifice for the reduced brake fade. :dunno:Especially as these are stock 330ci brakes. M3 brakes are even larger. Does that mean those are completely out of proportion? :lmao: :rolleyes:

[snikwad]

wut?

Especially as these are stock 330ci brakes. M3 brakes are even larger. Does that mean those are completely out of proportion? :lmao: :rolleyes:

Ray, i found this last night while doing a lil searching...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1001447

[Rayce185]

Ray, i found this last night while doing a lil searching...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1001447

Awesome, thanks!


The upgrade for your car is E46 330 rotors, calipers and carriers in the front, and E46 325 or E46 328 rotors and carriers in the back (re-use your current caliper).

Here is what you gain:

286/22 fronts to 300/25

279/19 rears to 294/19

If you want to go cheaper, you can use E46 325 or E46 328 front rotors and carriers and re-use your current calipers. If you do that, you go to 286/22 fronts to 300/22.

Either way, you may need to reconsider your wheels - you must have 17" to do this.

If you want to go more expensive, you need to swap spindles. If you bother to swap spindles, just go to a big brake kit.

[330i ZHP]

Hmm, do you think it's a direct swap for 323 brakes too? :eeps:

Yes - all non M 3 series will swap on the front

what about 330 brakes on a 328, direct swap also?

Yes - all non M 3 series will swap on the front

wut?

Especially as these are stock 330ci brakes. M3 brakes are even larger. Does that mean those are completely out of proportion? :lmao: :rolleyes:

M3 brakes are only wider by 3mm - not bigger around. They are both the same size

[snikwad]

Stu, what about the rears on my 328? what rears can i throw on there?

[330i ZHP]

unless you want to swap the trailing arms or are willing to have NO parking brake - you are stuck with what you have. Remember, the rears only do about 10-30% of the braking - so size wont matter unless you are going for looks as well....then you have to go back to my original statement of new rear suspension components or no parking brake.

[simsima325]

328 and 325 have the same rear brakes. the only upgrade is 330, and that requires new trailing arms etc. in the rear, in order for the parking brake to work.

search on this rear upgrade, it has been discussed here.

[330i ZHP]

i have painstakingly done the swap. it is straightforward but time consuming

[Rayce185]

What about 325mm ZCP brakes? :eeps:

[simsima325]

what about fail?

[GDA]

i have painstakingly done the swap. it is straightforward but time consuming


+1

I just completed the entire 330 brake swap about two weeks ago. Fronts were easy and a direct swap. To do the rears took quite a bit of time and effort.

Donor car provided 330 trailing arms including bearings/hubs/parking brake assembly and finally 330 axles. Taking my time and detailing every part along the way, it took about 10 hours to completely remove the 325 rear parts and then install the 330 rear brakes. I'd say to just swap parts you can do it in about 4 to 5 hours tops.

Highly recommended if you can find a 330 being parted out.

[Bimmer Dude Xi]

+1

I just completed the entire 330 brake swap about two weeks ago. Fronts were easy and a direct swap. To do the rears took quite a bit of time and effort.

Donor car provided 330 trailing arms including bearings/hubs/parking brake assembly and finally 330 axles. Taking my time and detailing every part along the way, it took about 10 hours to completely remove the 325 rear parts and then install the 330 rear brakes. I'd say to just swap parts you can do it in about 4 to 5 hours tops.

Highly recommended if you can find a 330 being parted out.

So pretty much for the rear, the hub assembly has to be swapped out along with other parts?

[GDA]

So pretty much for the rear, the hub assembly has to be swapped out along with other parts?

Yes. The 330 rear trailing arm has larger rear wheel bearings and the 330 hubs that go with those rear wheel bearings have larger internal spline section that match up with the 330 axles.

325 axles take a M24 hub nut while the 330 axles take a M27 hub nut and viewed side by side the 330 axles appear much beefier.

[Bimmer Dude Xi]

Yes. The 330 rear trailing arm has larger rear wheel bearings and the 330 hubs that go with those rear wheel bearings have larger internal spline section that match up with the 330 axles.

325 axles take a M24 hub nut while the 330 axles take a M27 hub nut and viewed side by side the 330 axles appear much beefier.

So the 330 axle bolts on to the 325 differential without any issues?

I'm guessing the rear 330 caliper carrier doesn't bolt on the 325 hub?

[GDA]

So the 330 axle bolts on to the 325 differential without any issues?

Correct.

[330i ZHP]

really??? I had to change my output shafts

[GDA]

really??? I had to change my output shafts

On my 2001 325 the 330 axles bolted right up to the diff. I just unbolted the 325 axles from the diff and then unbolted the trailing arms and removed each trailing arm/hub/axle all as one assembly.

The only difference I could tell from inspection between the 330 and 325 axles were the shaft diameter and the larger diameter splined section that goes through the hub and attaches with a larger hub nut.

[snikwad]

great info, thanks guys

[330i ZHP]

On my 2001 325 the 330 axles bolted right up to the diff. I just unbolted the 325 axles from the diff and then unbolted the trailing arms and removed each trailing arm/hub/axle all as one assembly.

The only difference I could tell from inspection between the 330 and 325 axles were the shaft diameter and the larger diameter splined section that goes through the hub and attaches with a larger hub nut.

i never really looked to be honest. i was swapping in a 3.46 lsd setup for a 330 anyway