Looking for Ideal Suspension Setup, large budget

[Ahheck01]

I'm not really too concerned about cost - the Moton setup is a bit steep, but if it's the best, then that's the one I'll get.

2004 M3 6spd - will be daily driven (not in snow), tracked a couple times a year, autocrossed 20 times a year, but all more for the fun of doing so rather than heavy competition.

I'm looking to pinpoint down to the bushing what setup to go with. I'd like the best handling possible without being really painful on rougher roads. What are your suggestions?

Thanks,

-Evan

[samBROchill330i]

pm BMWALDO...i believe his boss just threw on the Motons for his M3...maybe he can shed some light

[Ahheck01]

I may have to do that.

Other than just the coilover selection, what is the typical high quality, high performance street/autox selection for best:

Camber Plates:
Ball Joints:
Control Arms:
Rear Trailing Arms:
RTAB's:
RSM's:
Sways: (I hear Hotchkis is best?)

Thanks guys,

-Evan

PS) Since this is for an M3, would the M3 forum be a better place to ask about this?

[Ferm3]

Moton....oh...well...that's what I want :drool:

great thread

[tinkwithanr]

For Street i would probably go with:

Camber Plates:not sure, pry turner motorsports street/race
Ball Joints: Part of control arm vvvv
Control Arms:OEM ZHP Arms
Rear Trailing Arms:not sure
RTAB's:powerflex
RSM's:turner motorsports billet aluminum
Sways: (I hear Hotchkis is best?) H&R or Turner

Not an expert, just what i would probably go for.

[TxZHP04]

For a daily driven car that sees a fair bit of fun with no major budget restrictions, here's my 2 cents...

Coilovers: AST 4100
Camber Plates: Vorshlag
Ball Joints: stock
Control Arms: stock
LCABs: UUC's hybrid or Meyle HD
Rear Trailing Arms: stock, unless you go for a serious drop in which case I would get adjustables from Turner
RTAB's: stock with Vorshlag limiters
RSM's: either Vorshlag sphericals or HD rubber
Sways: either Hotchkis or H&R

I just installed the AST coilovers on my ZHP yesterday so still haven't had it aligned or pushed it too hard, but I think I'm really going to like them. I went with 500f / 550r spring rates but they stock many other (mostly higher) rates and can get you just about anything you want. I have their camber plates but stuck with HD OEM type rubber RSMs for street comfort but their sphericals are supposed to be really nice as well.

[TxZHP04]

For Street i would probably go with:

Control Arms:OEM ZHP Arms

Not an expert, just what i would probably go for.

Not for his M3.... :confused:

[Ahheck01]

Okay, here's what I've got so far. Still looking for more input on a reasonably comfortable but great handling shock/spring/coilover setup primarily for street:

Suspension - $1400 + Coilovers
Shock/Spring/Coilovers: ?
Sways: Hotchkis - $395
Strut Brace: Vorshlag - $325
Control Arms: OEM
LCAB's: UUC - $240
Trailing Arms: OEM
RTAB's: Stock with Vorshlag Limiters - $45
RSM's: Meyle HD - $55
Camber Plates: Vorshlag Street - $340

[djnekkon]

not for his m3.... :confused:

wtf?

[Nico3k]

If someone says the Motons are better all around it's not true. Fully adjustable coilovers can be just as good. From much experience I would go with the following:
-Higher end fully adjustable coilovers such as Ground Control or TCKline (I love the TCK) with min ~500lb progressive springs
-Fully adjustable front camber plates and upgraded rear shock mounts like Rogue/TCK/etc..
-Aftermarket front/rear sway bars with polyurethane bushings and solid adjustable end links
-Front and rear strut brace (minimal gains, optional)
-Meyle or ZHP front control arms with replaceable ball joins and adjustable rear camber arms (UUC ones work fine)
-Set of poly/delrin front control arm bushings and rear trailing arm bushings with limiters
-Solid transmission mounts, engine mounts, subframe mounts (effects handling), differential bushings/mounts
-Last but not least sticky tires on wide rims with most aggressive offset available

These parts all combined will give you the perfect handling IMO..

[Brian N]

LCABs: UUC's hybrid or Meyle HD


Sorry stupid question what are LCABs? Did you by chance mean FCABs? :hmm:

[Ahheck01]

I don't necessarily want to add a ton of NVH by going to solid mounts for everything.

Also, I was under the impression that the Motons are above the TCK D/A's... They're even an option on TC Kline's website as above D/A's?

-Evan

If someone says the Motons are better all around it's not true. Fully adjustable coilovers can be just as good. From much experience I would go with the following:
-Higher end fully adjustable coilovers such as Ground Control or TCKline (I love the TCK) with min ~500lb progressive springs
-Fully adjustable front camber plates and upgraded rear shock mounts like Rogue/TCK/etc..
-Aftermarket front/rear sway bars with polyurethane bushings and solid adjustable end links
-Front and rear strut brace (minimal gains, optional)
-Meyle or ZHP front control arms with replaceable ball joins and adjustable rear camber arms (UUC ones work fine)
-Set of poly/delrin front control arm bushings and rear trailing arm bushings with limiters
-Solid transmission mounts, engine mounts, subframe mounts (effects handling), differential bushings/mounts
-Last but not least sticky tires on wide rims with most aggressive offset available

These parts all combined will give you the perfect handling IMO..

[TxZHP04]

wtf?

Not sure if you meant to quote me or tinkwithanr but the OP stated this was going to be for a 2004 M3 and then tinkwithanr suggested ZHP control arms, which won't work on an M3 due to it's different suspension geometry.

[Rayce185]

Get Meyle HD control arms and CAB's. Lifetime warranty and best you can get.

[TxZHP04]

If someone says the Motons are better all around it's not true. Fully adjustable coilovers can be just as good. From much experience I would go with the following:
-Higher end fully adjustable coilovers such as Ground Control or TCKline (I love the TCK) with min ~500lb progressive springs
-Fully adjustable front camber plates and upgraded rear shock mounts like Rogue/TCK/etc..
-Aftermarket front/rear sway bars with polyurethane bushings and solid adjustable end links
-Front and rear strut brace (minimal gains, optional)
-Meyle or ZHP front control arms with replaceable ball joins and adjustable rear camber arms (UUC ones work fine)
-Set of poly/delrin front control arm bushings and rear trailing arm bushings with limiters
-Solid transmission mounts, engine mounts, subframe mounts (effects handling), differential bushings/mounts
-Last but not least sticky tires on wide rims with most aggressive offset available

These parts all combined will give you the perfect handling IMO..

Not sure I understand why you would spec solid mounts, poly bushings, good coilovers, etc and then suggest progressive springs. Linear springs are much better suited to a track setup and are perfectly comfortable on the street when paired with good dampers.

It's also not necessary (or perhaps even recommended) to run limiters with poly RTABs. The limiters are meant for the OEM type rubber bushings.

[TxZHP04]

Get Meyle HD control arms and CAB's. Lifetime warranty and best you can get.

Do they offer them for the M3?

[Nico3k]

Not sure I understand why you would spec solid mounts, poly bushings, good coilovers, etc and then suggest progressive springs. Linear springs are much better suited to a track setup and are perfectly comfortable on the street when paired with good dampers.

It's also not necessary (or perhaps even recommended) to run limiters with poly RTABs. The limiters are meant for the OEM type rubber bushings.

You are 100% correct. I wasn't paying much attention while writing that. Also I didn't realize it was for an M3, so the subframe bushings and engine/tranny mounts are not that important since they don't wear prematurely from the factory. I meant to say non-progressive springs. :banghead:

I don't necessarily want to add a ton of NVH by going to solid mounts for everything.

Also, I was under the impression that the Motons are above the TCK D/A's... They're even an option on TC Kline's website as above D/A's?

-Evan

It is true that the Motons are "above" the D/A's but keep in mind that they wont be adding much performance, only more adjustability. A properly dialed in D/A setup will handle just as well at the track. It comes more down to weight at a certain point when the car is perfectly corner balanced and aligned. You have to decide how easily you want to adjust the suspension. I would say either way you will be perfectly happy with the Motons or GC/TCK.

[shady3one3]

Did you get my PM?

[Ahheck01]

Did you get my PM?

Yes, but I'm just in the research stage, and nobody has mentioned the suspension you had.

Guys, do a lot of people run motons or TCK D/A's on the road? I'm looking for real life testimonials of guys with high-end coilovers on the road. Any suggestions?

-Evan

[TxZHP04]

Yes, but I'm just in the research stage, and nobody has mentioned the suspension you had.

Guys, do a lot of people run motons or TCK D/A's on the road? I'm looking for real life testimonials of guys with high-end coilovers on the road. Any suggestions?

-Evan

Motons are too expensive to see much street duty. Lots of people run the TCK suspensions on both the street and track.

If shady3one3 is talking about an AST setup, I believe I brought that up earlier. It is immensely popular with the e36 crowd and starting to catch on with the e46 crowd. If you search over at bimmerforums or m3forum, you'll find more info than you will around here (on the subject of AST suspensions). TCK had been the choice for dual purpose coilovers but AST is quickly starting to earn this title. Some of the track guys at bf.c have even switched from TCK to AST and like them better.

I've only had my AST 4100 suspension for about 2 days now but I'm already very happy with it. Can't compare to TCK or Moton myself but would find it highly unlikely that the jump in price from TCK or AST to Moton could be justified for anything other than a purpose built, competitive race car.

If you need opinions on other suspensions, just let us know what you might be considering.

[shady3one3]

I'd be happy to sell him some AST's, but I actually offered him a set of Ohlins :thumbup:

edit: And its possible that nobody has mentioned Ohlins because there haven't been any Ohlins in e46 fitment available for quite a while. This is the last unused set. They've been sitting on our shelves for awhile.

[TxZHP04]

I'd be happy to sell him some AST's, but I actually offered him a set of Ohlins :thumbup:

Also very nice.

[Ahheck01]

With everything but springrate identified, here's the plan:

Suspension - $3700
Shock/Spring/Coilovers: TC Kline D/A Smart Design Coilovers - $2300
Sways: Hotchkis - $395
Strut Brace: Vorshlag - $325
Control Arms: OEM
LCAB's: UUC - $240
Trailing Arms: OEM
RTAB's: Stock with Vorshlag Limiters - $45
RSM's: Meyle HD - $55
Camber Plates: Vorshlag Street - $340

[shady3one3]

You can skip the strut brace.

[SeanC]

You can skip the strut brace.

for tracking purposes, yes, the strut brace could be skipped. However, I bet there are many potholes, bad roads in Iowa where a strut brace could prevent strut towers from mushrooming in the long run...

[Ahheck01]

for tracking purposes, yes, the strut brace could be skipped. However, I bet there are many potholes, bad roads in Iowa where a strut brace could prevent strut towers from mushrooming in the long run...
That's definitely the truth.

Is there anything else I can do or reinforce to strengthen the chassis or reduce harmful or sloppy flex, etc? I'm looking to spare no expense on the tautness and responsiveness of the steering. Is there an option for a quicker steering rack, with perhaps more of an improvement than the ZCP rack?

-Evan

[shady3one3]

for tracking purposes, yes, the strut brace could be skipped. However, I bet there are many potholes, bad roads in Iowa where a strut brace could prevent strut towers from mushrooming in the long run...
He should already have the oem m3 strut brace.
That's definitely the truth.

Is there anything else I can do or reinforce to strengthen the chassis or reduce harmful or sloppy flex, etc? I'm looking to spare no expense on the tautness and responsiveness of the steering. Is there an option for a quicker steering rack, with perhaps more of an improvement than the ZCP rack?

-Evan
THe ZHP rack is the "quickest" but you can't swap it. THe ultimate "tautness" upgrade comes in the form of a full roll cage. If you aren't going that route, don't bother with silly things like $400 strut bars.

You might consider the subframe reinforcement kit.

[TxZHP04]

You might consider the subframe reinforcement kit.

Yeah, give it serious consideration. I just had my 04 ZHP reinforced about 2 months ago because I found a small crack in the chassis in the "usual" location.

[Ahheck01]

Yeah, give it serious consideration. I just had my 04 ZHP reinforced about 2 months ago because I found a small crack in the chassis in the "usual" location.
I'll add that to the list - where do I get one?

Thanks to your informative PM, I'm looking to go AST.

BUT here's the question - I'm looking for an adjustable setup that has the widest range of comfortable ride to high-performance-handling ride. I don't want to be jarred and rattled too much on the Iowa streets. Money not being a concern, which of the AST coilovers would you suggest, and what springrates for an e46 M that is (ashamedly) bogged down with an extra 200lb of weight from tech and audio equipment?

-Evan

[shady3one3]

Turner sells the reinforcement kit, it requires welding.

550/650-600/700 should be fine for you. PM me if you want the AST's...I can work out something nice for you, especially if you want to order those brakes too :thumbup:

[TxZHP04]

I'll add that to the list - where do I get one?

Thanks to your informative PM, I'm looking to go AST.

BUT here's the question - I'm looking for an adjustable setup that has the widest range of comfortable ride to high-performance-handling ride. I don't want to be jarred and rattled too much on the Iowa streets. Money not being a concern, which of the AST coilovers would you suggest, and what springrates for an e46 M that is (ashamedly) bogged down with an extra 200lb of weight from tech and audio equipment?

-Evan

As mentioned, Turner Motorsport sells the reinforcement kit. The kit itself is cheap but it requires roughly 15 hours labor to install because you have to drop the entire rear subframe to weld it in.

No coilover is going to take you from Lexus to Porsche with the turn of a few knobs. That said, I don't think you'll find a better balance of comfort and performance than AST. I'm running 500f/550r springs and it's been very comfortable on the streets - very close in comfort, if not better in some regards, to my stock ZHP suspension but with immensely better handling. My wife hasn't even figured out that I installed an aftermarket suspension yet, if that tells you anything. If you're comfortable with your M3's suspension on Iowa streets, you should be just fine with an AST setup as long as you don't go crazy with spring rates. I'd let the guys at Vorshlag or RRT guide you on spring rates for your application. I dealt with Vorshlag since they're local to me and Terry Fair was spot on with his recommendations for my application. I think the linear rate springs may feel slightly busier on the streets than progressive rate springs but they have yet to feel harsh. I almost forget I've upgraded until I hit a curve....

Whether you want the 4100, 4200, or 4300 suspension really depends on how much adjustability you want or need. The 4100s are adjustable in rebound only - this is what I have. The 4200 is adjustable for both compression and rebound. The 4300, which may not be available for the e46 yet, is adjustable for rebound as well as both high and low speed compression. As I understand it, they all use the same basic valving just with increasing levels of adjustability. In my opinion, you don't need more than the 4100 unless you are planning to get seriously competitive. More adjustments mean more things to get wrong when trying to set up your car.

EDIT: if it's not obvious from my posts yet, I'm still quite amazed at how comfortable my new suspension is considering the springs I'm running. :)

[patrick328]

Why would someone suggest OEM control arms? Their ball joints are not replaceable so... My question is: If I am trying to upgrade my '00 328ci, would I want to go with Control Arm - Left - ZHP Performance package = $ 269.95 (per side) or should I just settle for Control Arm - Left - metal ball joint - Meyle = $ 189.95 (per side)? My understanding is both come with replaceable ball joints only one is shinier & the other is OEM (sport package). So, is the ZHP just more expensive because it says BMW on it? If that's it, I'm definitely going with the Meyle!

[tinkwithanr]

the Meyle don't have the same tolerances the ZHP ones have. That being said the only bushings that the tolerances have become a problem with are the UUC FCAB. If your just going with the HD meyle FCAB or OEM FCAB then you shouldn't have any problems with the fit

[patrick328]

Oh... Well my next question is will I have a problem fitting ZHP CA's on my car if it did not come with ZHP? Interesting thing, how do I know if I already have the ZHP package? I mean I have an M hood, M rims, M tech bumper (i think), so maybe it came with ZHP suspension? As for the control arms, I suppose i just compare them to pictures of them, right? Is ZHP German for pimp or???

EDIT: nevermind, i went here to find out: http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php?title=BMW_E46#ZHP_-_Performance_Package

[lowside67]

I ran TC Klines on my E36 street/track car and I have to say that although they worked quite well one the track, they werent the best street solution. I was running reasonably tame rates but the rear would clunk over major bumps and it drove me nuts. It seems to be a fairly well documented issue in the E36 world, I am not sure if it transfers to their E46 product.

I am strongly considering building an E46 M3 street/track car and I will be running KW Club Sports as my coilovers of choice. They are an excellent choice because although they are a very capable damper, the springs are slightly progressive (quite a bit less than the V3 street version) to add a little bit of comfort in the first section of travel and also to enhance turn-in. I will add sways as necessary although I suspect I will probably only need a front sway. You are bang on with Vorshlag's "street" camber plates and I will be doing likewise, I had them on my E36 and believe they are among the best.

Cheers
Mark

[n2Bimmer]

I believe Ohlins is better than Moton.

[lowside67]

"Better than" depends very much on what it is used for. Penskes and Ohlins are amazing track shocks but they also have a much more aggressive rebuild schedule. They also are more adjustable which is great, if you know what you're doing, but for a novice can be made to be worse than a less adjustable but more preset suspension, if that makes any sense?

On a pure track car, I'd probably run Moton Clubsports but with a substantial street component I would tend towards a compromise.

-Mark