Planning a new system and have many questions.

[dummptyhummpty]

I recently purchased a 2003 M3 with the Harmon Kardon system and would like to change that out with some of my existing equipment. I have many questions and I have done my best to break them up into different sections. Any feedback or suggestions are welcome! I posted on some dedicated car audio forums, but didn't receive much response and thought I would try again here.

My System Goals:
This car will be my daily driver so I won't do anything too extreme and would like to not do anything that can't be undone or returned to stock. In other words like to keep modification down to a minimum, unless it's worth it, and I'd like to keep things as stock looking as possible. I'm also considering using the car for the occasional track day, and would like to keep the install as light as possible. I plan to make the amp rack as well as the subwoofer removable. My usual listening sources are XM radio, CDs and my iPod. For now, I plan to keep the stock headunit and eventually, I am considering a car computer or an aftermarket headunit. I mostly listen to rap, rock and dance and I'm after sound quality. I would like the system to sound great no matter what type of music is being played. I'd like to build a competitive system if possible, but I realize my goals may prevent me from doing so. Will is be possible for me to compete or should I just focus on having a great sounding system that I am happy with?

My Equipment:

(2) Hybrid Audio Legatia L6s
(2) Hybrid Audio Legatia L1s,
DLS A4 amp
DLS A6 amp (used in my Audi)
IDQ 12 D2 sub


2 Way or 3 Way:
I was wondering if I should stick with a two way setup or purchase a mid bass (Hybrid Audio L3 or L4) and go three way? What would be the advantages or disadvantages to each setup pertaining to my system goals and the music I listen to?

Midbass & cutting the door:
It seems that the best thing to do is to put the L6 in the factory midbass location and secure it to the door instead of the door panel. I'm a little uneasy about cutting the doors, but it looks like it will need to be done. Will this effect anything if I ever need to go back to stock?

Tweeter/Mid Placement:
I don't know much about speaker placement so I need some suggestions on where to put the tweeter and if applicable, the mid. A member on the car audio forum suggested that I put the tweeters in the A-pillars or put the tweeters and mids together in kickpanels. What seems to work best in our cars? Keep in mind I have a 6spd.

Sound Deadening:
I know this has been discussed before and I will do a search. Is there a recommend thread on sound deadening for the weight conscience?

Rear Soundstage:
I'm probably going to just disconnect it since I don't plan on carrying people around in the back and I've heard it can hurt the sound stage.

Subwoofer Setup:
I plan to go with an IB setup as I really like the way they sound and would like to keep as much trunk space as possible. I was going to try something like what rcurley55 did here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/rcurley55/new%20install/IMG_1455.jpg), but i'm not sure how well that would work with with my 12in sub. The rear deck has the two smaller holes instead of one big one and I don't know if this will effect anything negatively. Please note that I will not cut the rear deck following a negative experience doing so in my Audi.

I'll considering purchasing two 8in subs and using those exactly like rcurley55 has if using my 12in won't work. Will this provide adequate low end?

A member on the car audio forum suggested a bandpass box based on the music I listen to. I know nothing about those and I was curious as to how that might compare to an IB setup.

Lastly, are there any ideas on how I can make the baffle removable? Will I have to settle with unscrewing before going to the track or is there any easier way?

Amplifiers/Sound Processing:
I plan to use my DLS A4 amp to actively power the midbass and tweeter. If I go with a three way setup I will insert a passive crossover between the tweeter and mid. I'm looking into the RF 3.sixty2 to provide for TA, EQ and help with the crossovers. I don't know much about these types of units and I'm curious if there is a better suited one for my application.

Wiring:
I'm just going to use the stock wiring.

[dummptyhummpty]

In case any one is interested, I've been doing some research by asking around and here is what I have come up with:

2 Way or 3 Way:
I'm going to try out a two way setup and see how that sounds. It won't be hard to add a mid with some kick panels if I feel the need to go three way.

Midbass & cutting the door:
I was told that the L6 might not fit behind the door panel. I'll have to see if I can make it fit. If not I'll need to find another midbass.

Tweeter/Mid Placement:
For now i'm going to leave the tweeter in the stock location and eventually move it to the A-pillar.

Rear Soundstage:
Disconnected

Subwoofer Setup:
Still researching this.

Amplifiers/Sound Processing:
I'm getting mixed opinions on the RF 3.sixty2 working with balanced inputs, so i'll need to do some more research.

[BmwAudio32]

Yeah I used to be obsessed with wanting to do a 3-way too, but in the end, a 2-way system seemed the way to go. Cutting the door is not that hard and is the ideal way to mount a driver, however you should be able to make that driver fit if you dremel down the inside of the speaker grille and mounting area without cutting the actual door. I'm not sure how well tweeters will work in the m3 factory spot, but in the e46 sedan the tweeters are near the a-pillar anyway, so that should work good with them in the a-pillar.

[dummptyhummpty]

Yeah I used to be obsessed with wanting to do a 3-way too, but in the end, a 2-way system seemed the way to go. Cutting the door is not that hard and is the ideal way to mount a driver, however you should be able to make that driver fit if you dremel down the inside of the speaker grille and mounting area without cutting the actual door. I'm not sure how well tweeters will work in the m3 factory spot, but in the e46 sedan the tweeters are near the a-pillar anyway, so that should work good with them in the a-pillar.

Thanks for the reassurance on cutting the door. I'm a little weary about cutting down the door panel in case I need to go back to stock, but now that I think of it, I would probably just mount the driver to the door anyway. Problem solved! Good point about the tweeters on the sedan, I was going to see if I could do something like that on the coupe.

[bigjae1976]

I've been looking at the Legatia 6 for awhile. That mid WILL require modding the door panel. The speaker is about 3" deep and it is an oversized 6.5 driver (a 7"). You will have to cut away anything protruding from the back of the door panel and grill. Even then, it will be a tight fit. A DLS mid will fit much easier and seem to be comparable in SQ from what I've read. All the modding that you do will make it tough to go back to stock but I'd just count on sticking an inexpensive mid in its place. I'm sure no one will pull the door panel off. As long as everything sounds good, there shouldn't be an issue.

If weight is an issue, I would stick with a 2 way system. It will be a LOT easier to tune a 2 way active setup vrs a 3 way passive. If you were to put a mid/tweet in the kicks and a midbass in the door, I would definitely stick with an active system because you will have a lot of phasing/time alignment issues. I stayed away from kicks because there really isn't a lot of room with the clutch pedal.

I think the best place in our car for the tweet is the sail panel behind the mirror. I have mine in the A pillar. I have much deeper staging but it is not as wide as the OEM location. I think the sail panel will be the best compromise.

Sound deadening the doors (outer skin and inner panel) makes a huge difference if you mount the mids to the door.

I'd stay away from IB in our cars unless you are going for a true SQ system or are willing to extensively mod the car. I suspect that you want some output considering the music that you listen to. IB has very limited power handling capability and most won't like it because you won't get as much output from it. I'd suggest a ported box tuned low for that single IDQ12.

[dummptyhummpty]

I've been looking at the Legatia 6 for awhile. That mid WILL require modding the door panel. The speaker is about 3" deep and it is an oversized 6.5 driver (a 7"). You will have to cut away anything protruding from the back of the door panel and grill. Even then, it will be a tight fit. A DLS mid will fit much easier and seem to be comparable in SQ from what I've read. All the modding that you do will make it tough to go back to stock but I'd just count on sticking an inexpensive mid in its place. I'm sure no one will pull the door panel off. As long as everything sounds good, there shouldn't be an issue.

Well the plan is to keep this car, but as I learned with my Audi, sometimes your plans change. I don't mind cutting the door panel up because it can be replaced. I was just hopping to avoid that.

If weight is an issue, I would stick with a 2 way system. It will be a LOT easier to tune a 2 way active setup vrs a 3 way passive. If you were to put a mid/tweet in the kicks and a midbass in the door, I would definitely stick with an active system because you will have a lot of phasing/time alignment issues. I stayed away from kicks because there really isn't a lot of room with the clutch pedal.

I would like to keep weight down and I think for now and to keep things simple i'm going to stick with a two way setup.

I think the best place in our car for the tweet is the sail panel behind the mirror. I have mine in the A pillar. I have much deeper staging but it is not as wide as the OEM location. I think the sail panel will be the best compromise.

How hard would it be to put them in the sails? I would not mind the A pillar, except my fabrication skills are a bit lacking. If I can find some extra pillars, I might give that a shot.

Sound deadening the doors (outer skin and inner panel) makes a huge difference if you mount the mids to the door.

Great! Any recommended reading?

I'd stay away from IB in our cars unless you are going for a true SQ system or are willing to extensively mod the car. I suspect that you want some output considering the music that you listen to. IB has very limited power handling capability and most won't like it because you won't get as much output from it. I'd suggest a ported box tuned low for that single IDQ12.

I had an IB setup in my Audi and was very happy with it.

I'm willing to consider my other options though. A ported box was suggested by a user on another forum. How much space would one take up?

Thanks for all your help!

[bigjae1976]

How hard would it be to put them in the sails? I would not mind the A pillar, except my fabrication skills are a bit lacking. If I can find some extra pillars, I might give that a shot.

Shouldn't be too hard. If you mess up, sail panels are pretty cheap. The A pillar isn't too bad, the challenge will be matching the upholstery. Here is a pic of what I did.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/bigjae1976/2004%20BMW%20330Ci/DSCF0775.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/bigjae1976/2004%20BMW%20330Ci/DSCF0779.jpg

Great! Any recommended reading?

Here is a pretty good link on sound deadening in general

http://www.raamaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?p=ht

Here is a pic of my door.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/bigjae1976/2004%20BMW%20330Ci/DSCF0425-1.jpg

[QUOTE=dummptyhummpty;8988818]I had an IB setup in my Audi and was very happy with it.

I'm willing to consider my other options though. A ported box was suggested by a user on another forum. How much space would one take up?

You can use the factory openings in the rear deck but the largest driver that you might be able to fit is an 8". I'd avoid the hassle and just put a box in the trunk. You are looking at ~2.0 cu ft.

[pastE36prsntE46]

For the RECORD, the DLS wont be in even the same league as the Legatia L6. The L1 Pros in the stock tweeter locations will sound great, but I believe the A-pillars would be ideal. As for the IB, if you run say an IDMAX it will be louder at lower frequencies but will lose a few dbs at higher frequencies for the sub. And with an IDMAX you wouldnt be able to tell the slight loss in dbs in some of the frequencies. Just my 2 cents....

[dummptyhummpty]

Shouldn't be too hard. If you mess up, sail panels are pretty cheap. The A pillar isn't too bad, the challenge will be matching the upholstery. Here is a pic of what I did.

Ok, do you know if the sails from the sedan will fit our coupe? That might make things easier. If not I'll try the a pillar route. I read another thread where you mentioned having trouble matching the pillars so i'll have to factor that in too.

Here is a pretty good link on sound deadening in general

http://www.raamaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?p=ht

Here is a pic of my door.

I'll look at that when I have some time, later. Your door looks good too. Doesn't look like it added much weight.

You can use the factory openings in the rear deck but the largest driver that you might be able to fit is an 8". I'd avoid the hassle and just put a box in the trunk. You are looking at ~2.0 cu ft.

I'll look into a box and see what can be done. Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you updated.

For the RECORD, the DLS wont be in even the same league as the Legatia L6. The L1 Pros in the stock tweeter locations will sound great, but I believe the A-pillars would be ideal. As for the IB, if you run say an IDMAX it will be louder at lower frequencies but will lose a few dbs at higher frequencies for the sub. And with an IDMAX you wouldnt be able to tell the slight loss in dbs in some of the frequencies. Just my 2 cents....

Thanks for clearing that up! When you say stock location, do you mean for the sedan or coupe? I was told that the L1 Pros wouldn't fit in the coupe's stock location. That doesn't really matter since I only have the L1s and not the Pros. Should I look into getting the Pros? How does my IDQ compare to the IDMax?

[bigjae1976]

Ok, do you know if the sails from the sedan will fit our coupe? That might make things easier. If not I'll try the a pillar route. I read another thread where you mentioned having trouble matching the pillars so i'll have to factor that in too.

No they won't fit. You can try locating an upholstery shop to see if they can match the material before you start cutting your A pillars. There are 3 upholstery shops in my area and none could match it. I didn't feel like driving all around town. I decided to go with a gray microsuede instead.

I'll look into a box and see what can be done. Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you updated.

The IDMax is a much better candidate for an IB install since it has a much longer stroke and a beefier suspension. This sounds a lot crazier than it actually is. The ideal IB sub for our car is a 18" sub. Output won't be an issue. Basically, the box requirements for an 18 are about the same as the size of your trunk. It will take some effort to seal up the trunk and creating a sturdy baffle.

Contrary to common belief, an 18" sub can sound good. The best 18" driver for this application that I can think of is an Fi 18" built to be optimized in an IB alignment.

[dummptyhummpty]

No they won't fit. You can try locating an upholstery shop to see if they can match the material before you start cutting your A pillars. There are 3 upholstery shops in my area and none could match it. I didn't feel like driving all around town. I decided to go with a gray microsuede instead.

Ok, i'll call around and see what I can come up with.

The IDMax is a much better candidate for an IB install since it has a much longer stroke and a beefier suspension. This sounds a lot crazier than it actually is. The ideal IB sub for our car is a 18" sub. Output won't be an issue. Basically, the box requirements for an 18 are about the same as the size of your trunk. It will take some effort to seal up the trunk and creating a sturdy baffle.

Contrary to common belief, an 18" sub can sound good. The best 18" driver for this application that I can think of is an Fi 18" built to be optimized in an IB alignment.

Back to your suggestion on going with a sealed box, I had custom enclosure made for my Audi. I think it might actually fit over the battery. I might need to make a beauty panel for it, but since I paid for it (and didn't have a chance to use it), I might as well try to use it now. I'll keep you posted.

[Burger888]

I'd be very interested to hear how you get on if you go with the IB option. What you were proposing by mounting under the rear deck is exactly what I am looking at doing - I can't afford to lose any usable trunk space.

[hexadecim8]

I would definitely give bigjae's input a lot of consideration (actually I did just that when he helped me with some decisions on the door install of my mid's, thx bro). He's right, the L6's will be a tight fit behind the panels and you will definitely have to modify the panels as well as the door, ie cut the inner door skin, mount mid's to baffles, etc. The good part, like he said, is no one ever says 'hey, mind if I remove the door panels real quick' and even if they do or you advertise your 'improvements', as long as the work is high quality it shouldn't be an issue. Afterall, did you buy this car for you or did you buy it to babysit for the next owner?

A few other comments to consider as it sounds like you are well on your way:
- deadening the doors is well worth the effort if you are considering using components of that quality. Also, cutting the doors and mounting the mid's to the door would be a must IMO. Sound deadening both doors with about 12-15 sq ft of material will add approx 8-10 lbs to the car.
- I have a sub enclosure that I think is probably similar to what you were using in the A4. Sealed fiberglass box molded to the trunk and fits above the battery. Several others have done similar setups on here so there are lots of examples. IMO its the best use of space of any installs I've seen and can be made so that it fits solidly but can be removed, if needed. Though depending on what you use, output might be an issue as I have a 10" and I believe going to a 12" would require a much larger box. A cabin firing sub in the ski pass location is another option for these cars.

Heres a few pics of my install just for another example specific to your car:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g119/seattleguy98116/4aabefbf.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g119/seattleguy98116/267ca0d7.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g119/seattleguy98116/e46%20m3/58a1bbf8.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g119/seattleguy98116/e46%20m3/b80f51b2.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g119/seattleguy98116/e46%20m3/6b7ae893.jpg

[pastE36prsntE46]

The IDQ is a sub for sound quality, where as the IDMAX is supposed to be able to make you feel the thump in your chest. It is all on what you want, since you have the IDQ I belive IB or ski-pass is your best option to acquire the most bass and better sq into the cabin of the vehicle. I am thinking of IB with an IDMAX 10 in my E36 Should be done by the end of January.......

[dummptyhummpty]

I would definitely give bigjae's input a lot of consideration (actually I did just that when he helped me with some decisions on the door install of my mid's, thx bro). He's right, the L6's will be a tight fit behind the panels and you will definitely have to modify the panels as well as the door, ie cut the inner door skin, mount mid's to baffles, etc. The good part, like he said, is no one ever says 'hey, mind if I remove the door panels real quick' and even if they do or you advertise your 'improvements', as long as the work is high quality it shouldn't be an issue. Afterall, did you buy this car for you or did you buy it to babysit for the next owner?

Sounds good. You have a good point. I was going to consider the HAT Clarus 6.5 as I heard that would fit. I don't know if there was a big different in sound quality between the two speakers though.

A few other comments to consider as it sounds like you are well on your way:
- deadening the doors is well worth the effort if you are considering using components of that quality. Also, cutting the doors and mounting the mid's to the door would be a must IMO. Sound deadening both doors with about 12-15 sq ft of material will add approx 8-10 lbs to the car.
- I have a sub enclosure that I think is probably similar to what you were using in the A4. Sealed fiberglass box molded to the trunk and fits above the battery. Several others have done similar setups on here so there are lots of examples. IMO its the best use of space of any installs I've seen and can be made so that it fits solidly but can be removed, if needed. Though depending on what you use, output might be an issue as I have a 10" and I believe going to a 12" would require a much larger box. A cabin firing sub in the ski pass location is another option for these cars.

Yeah, my sub box looks similar to that. As soon as finals are over in a couple of weeks i'll start figuring things out. Thanks for all your help!

The IDQ is a sub for sound quality, where as the IDMAX is supposed to be able to make you feel the thump in your chest. It is all on what you want, since you have the IDQ I belive IB or ski-pass is your best option to acquire the most bass and better sq into the cabin of the vehicle. I am thinking of IB with an IDMAX 10 in my E36 Should be done by the end of January.......

Looks like i'm set then.

[dummptyhummpty]

I spend a good part of Saturday making a template for the rear deck. What do you think? Is this something that is going to work? Do you think the factory holes are big enough for the sound to pass through? If not I'm going to just build a box to sit on top of the battery tray. My existing box won't fit there :-(.

[bigjae1976]

That will work, just make sure there is enough clearance between the rear deck and your baffle for the sub's excursion. 1.5" is usually enough.

[dummptyhummpty]

That will work, just make sure there is enough clearance between the rear deck and your baffle for the sub's excursion. 1.5" is usually enough.

Great! I was planning to make the baffle out of 3/4in mdf and then make a spacer ring out of 1/2 mdf. Hopefully that's enough room!

[dpgrand]

:bump: any updates?

[dummptyhummpty]

:bump: any updates?
No :tsk:. I've been busy with school. I'll hopefully have some updates soon.

[dpgrand]

i feel your pain

[dummptyhummpty]

i feel your pain

:thanks: It doesn't help that the school bookstore had a super deal on the outgoing Mac Book Pro and my PowerBook was on it's way out. Now I have no money for a BitOne... :facepalm:

[dummptyhummpty]

Here's an update. I'm selling my Legatia L6-2 set: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9322036