Turbo or supercharged????

[YardDogg]

I need some opinions, i am the proud owner of a 2003 SMG with just under 100k miles. When i get my tax return i am putting it all underneath the hood, i have seen the HPF kits on youtube, as well as the supercharged M3's. I love the way my Car sounds at high revs, but it seems like the Turbo's cars lose that throaty growl, but the supercharged ones are even more intense. So I am asking you guys for help, i want the most bang for buck, as well as reliability so please leave me some comments!

[gasser]

I am a little bit biased with my HPF setup on its way, but you really have to decide what you want from your car. If you want a turbo and high boost/hp, then HPF all the way. If you want something with less hp, there are a number of S/C setups that work very well (VF, AA, ESS). Find someone near you with one of the F/I setups and go for a ride. That way you can see if you like the power-band of a specific setup and make a decision then. I have had turbo cars and a supercharged truck in the past and prefer turbos. Not to say I didn't like my S/C, the instant torque was quite fun, but I wished I could have put a turbo on that. Again, just go for a ride with someone. Best advice I can give.

[Sean@VF-Engineering]

PM sent
-Sean

[pastE36prsntE46]

Thats one hell of a tax return! HPF FTW! Even at stage 1/2 you can always upgrade and having limits around 800whp (for now until stg4 is released) is a nice thing to be able to upgrade to.

[ballsdeepm3]

im not sure what kind of money your willing to spend, but with that many miles i would do HPF stage 2.5 cause youll get a fresh motor with your new beast. as for that deep exhaust sound your refering to my hpf stage 2 is deeper than when it was stock with just exhaust. u gota remember no cats and the turbo changes the exhaust sound too. better all the way in my opinion. the HPF kits really are the sh*t. your getting what u pay for if you know what i mean.

[Sean@VF-Engineering]

VF offers very competitive kits that have plenty of room to grow.
Our kits are the most reliable and do not require water/meth or internals to make BIG power!

For $12K you can see 467whp with VF

or

For $18K+ you can see 443hp the other guys.


Race gas VF stage 2
http://www.vf-engineering.com/images/kit/bmw/e46_m3/dyno_stg2_109.gif

[mtran850]

HPF Turbo = It a Beast, Excellent Customer Support, In House Tuning
AA Supercharge = It is Fast, Excellent Customer Support, In House Tuning, Custom Tuning
VF Supercharge = ?, ?, NO IN HOUSE TUNING, No Custom Tuning

[WiAlFe1229]

If you want a quite quick m3 with good power, go supercharger.


If you want a serious beast with wet your pants power, HPF FTW

[Ravij]

HPF FTW :pimpin:

Dont forget the race fuel map on stg 1.. 605whp and 450wtq:bow:

Plus, everything fits like OEM!

Ravi

[AMG ETR]

For $12,000 you can get 500RWHP and 335RWTQ on Race Fuel With VF
http://www.vf-engineering.com/images/kit/bmw/e46_m3/dyno_stg2_109.gif

Or

For $18,000 you can get 600RWHP and 443RWTQ on Race Fuel With HPF (and have full torque by 4,000RPMS)
http://www.kozmanautos.com/hpfm3dyno.bmp

I love VF Engineering, they make great kits and if you go S/C I would go that direction, but come on Sean, don't try and say VF makes more power than HPF for less money cause its not true. Even on pump fuel, though VF Stage 2 might make more HP, does it make more Torque?? When does it make peak torque?? :4ngie:

Exibit A... HPF's Less HP Car Beats VF's Higher HP Car on pump fuel (HP Doesn't Always Win The Race)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JX0JiW8Fuo

Like I said I love VF for Superchargers, but if you can swing the Turbo, I highly reccomend it! Its a totally different car with the Turbo and TONS of FUN!!
Evan

[05SCM3]

Having had a VFE Stage 2 SC on my M3 and now an HPF Turbo Stage 2 on it, I can unequivocally recommend HPF. On multiple levels, and by a wide margin, my experience with HPF and its FI Kit has been superior.

[2000_328CI]

I'm putting my tax return in the bank.

[rushman]

VF offers very competitive kits that have plenty of room to grow.


Unless you have a 330ci.

[S54PWR]

I find it a bit misleading he listed HPF as 443hp and VF as 467rwhp while the HPF on Stage 1 pump makes 440+rwhp. There is a difference there in rwhp and crank hp. In comparing it, on pump 467rwhp vs. 443rwhp is close. Both cars make similar rwtq around 310+ at pump power levels. It's the race gas map is where the seperation happens. 500rwhp 335rwtq SC vs. 605rwhp 450rwtq is the comparo for 4k more as we are comparing VF's stage 2 for 12k vs. HPFs Stage 1 for 16k. The stage 2 is 18k. Evan makes a great point, it's not about hp, it more about powerband.

Looking at VF's race gas dyno posted the car seems to make approximately 375rwhp at 6k, 450rwhp at 7k and all 500rwhp at 8k. Compare to the HPFs race gas map their car makes approximately 500rwhp at 6k, 575rwhp at 7k and 600rwhp at 8k. Powerband is what wins races not just peak hp. Both cars make their bulk of their torque 5k+ and onward. I got these figures using the dyno Sean at VF posted and the Stage 1 dyno on HPFs site. (http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/images/products/horsepowerfreaks/Stage1.gif). I have nothing but respect for all FI tuners but I found it a bit unfair to call your numbers rwhp and another maker's "hp" while its actually rwhp as well. Also their stage 1 is 16k not 18k (Stage 2).

To the OP, all are great options, it's just a matter of what you're looking for and how much you want to spend.

Cheapest Entry Level Kit: Supercharger such as AA,VF or ESS

Highest Power Making Kit: Turbocharger via HPF at the cost of being more expensive but hey in the power game you have to pay to play. ;)

Decisions, decisions...:D

[parad0x]

lets not forget about ESS ^^ it's a great contender too, in my opinion better then AA as it provides a bigger supercharget out of the box and the stage 1 kit (400whp) is priced in the $5k price range VT series, stage 2 hasnt been released yet but is suppose to be around the 470whp area like VF and is going to cost around $7k ish. They have a distributor in the US so it's better now then it was before since it is a company that was initially based out of europe.

Despite that, I would aim for ESS, VF, or if your really rich and have a lot of money to spend on FI HPF is a great alternative, other then costing a lot of money they provide a Turbo kit and you can go up to like stage 3 but with all the extra supporting mods it'll cost you like something closer to $35-40k dollars in the end everything said and done but you'll have 800whp.

[opiage]

I'm putting my tax return in the bank.

lol... how come only you mentioned that option :P

[Sean@VF-Engineering]

Hey Evan,
I never compared race gas to race gas. I also never compared our system to HPF's stage 2 with water meth. I was comparing as closely as possible apples to apples.

Dollar for Dollar, the numbers show that we offer more HP for less money.

I don't dispute that they have crazy wild kits, however in the current economic climate not everybody can afford to spend that kind of change for a HPF kit. There is no argument here just facts.

Thanks guys! Lets keep this positive and educational! :)
-Sean

[Sean@VF-Engineering]

oops! Forgot to mention this setup: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?p=3698569#post3698569 :idea:

[BimmerDude18]

HPF or AA, ESS has nice stuff as well, but I'd go with whats proven.

VF doesn't help with upgrades and AA constantly provides them, as well as HPF, call Jean at AA and ask him what they have in the pipeline, I know for a fact they are close to having some new stuff for the M3.

[HPF Chris]

Hey Evan,
I never compared race gas to race gas. I also never compared our system to HPF's stage 2 with water meth. I was comparing as closely as possible apples to apples.

Dollar for Dollar, the numbers show that we offer more HP for less money.

I don't dispute that they have crazy wild kits, however in the current economic climate not everybody can afford to spend that kind of change for a HPF kit. There is no argument here just facts.

Thanks guys! Lets keep this positive and educational! :)
-Sean

I'm hearing two things from VF S/C owners that get our turbo kits. #1) some seem to end up paying more than $12K for all the miscellaneous odds and ends for their S/C kits, #2) their "hot" dyno pulls often make less than advertised. VF S/C owners can chime in here and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just going off of what I hear and see on our dyno.

We advertise our stage 1's at 425rwhp, but most end up making 425-440rwhp uncorrected "HOT" and a lot of torque because full boost hits at 3,700rpm. But our customers that spend the extra $2,500 for stage 2 will always have methanol on tap and that's where the power level gets amazing. :)

S/C kits are great and they're less expensive, but comparing $ / hp needs should also compare the use of methanol and race fuel which our kits provide. :) Let's also talk rwhp, and not throw hp in there on our kits.

Take care,
Chris.

[mtran850]

I'm hearing two things from VF S/C owners that get our turbo kits. #1) some seem to end up paying more than $12K for all the miscellaneous odds and ends, #2) their "hot" dyno pulls often make less than advertised. VF S/C owners can chime in here and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just going off of what I hear and see on our dyno.

We advertise our stage 1's at 425rwhp, but most end up making 425-440rwhp uncorrected "HOT" and a lot of torque because full boost hits at 3,700rpm. But our customers that spend the extra $2,500 for stage 2 will always have methanol on tap and that's where the power level gets amazing. :)

S/C kits are great and they're less expensive, but comparing $ / hp needs should also compare the use of methanol and race fuel which our kits provide. :) Let's also talk rwhp, and not throw hp in there on our kits.

Take care,
Chris.

HPF = :bow:

[mtran850]

VF offers very competitive kits that have plenty of room to grow.
Our kits are the most reliable and do not require water/meth or internals to make BIG power!

For $12K you can see 467whp with VF

or

For $18K+ you can see 443hp the other guys.


Race gas VF stage 2
http://www.vf-engineering.com/images/kit/bmw/e46_m3/dyno_stg2_109.gif

VF = :blah:

[pastE36prsntE46]

Hey Evan,
I never compared race gas to race gas. I also never compared our system to HPF's stage 2 with water meth. I was comparing as closely as possible apples to apples.

Dollar for Dollar, the numbers show that we offer more HP for less money.

I don't dispute that they have crazy wild kits, however in the current economic climate not everybody can afford to spend that kind of change for a HPF kit. There is no argument here just facts.

Thanks guys! Lets keep this positive and educational! :)
-Sean

You are correct you compared VF with Race vs Other Competitor with Pump. Maybe trying to make the numbers look bias?

[mtran850]

Hey Evan,
I never compared race gas to race gas. I also never compared our system to HPF's stage 2 with water meth. I was comparing as closely as possible apples to apples.

Dollar for Dollar, the numbers show that we offer more HP for less money.

I don't dispute that they have crazy wild kits, however in the current economic climate not everybody can afford to spend that kind of change for a HPF kit. There is no argument here just facts.

Thanks guys! Lets keep this positive and educational! :)
-Sean

HPF stage 1 race gas (600whp) cost $0.0375 per hp
(0.0375 x $16000 = 600 rwhp)
VF stage 2 race gas (500 rwhp) cost $0.0416 per hp
($0.0416 x $12000 = 499.2 rwhp)

[AMG ETR]

Hey Evan,
I never compared race gas to race gas. I also never compared our system to HPF's stage 2 with water meth. I was comparing as closely as possible apples to apples.

Dollar for Dollar, the numbers show that we offer more HP for less money.

I don't dispute that they have crazy wild kits, however in the current economic climate not everybody can afford to spend that kind of change for a HPF kit. There is no argument here just facts.

Thanks guys! Lets keep this positive and educational! :)
-Sean
I know you didn't, but you did post a dyno of a VF car on race gas so I did it for you :) I did not mention methanol in my post at all and the video I posted was of a car running on pump ONLY (no meth) vs VF Stage 2. I realize methanol changes the ball game with HPF cars, but stage 1 HPF on pump still beats VF stage 2 on pump in the end...

Like I said, VF is great, and I am actually opening a big shop here in FL right now and would love to carry the VF product line at some point just wanted to put the facts out there :woot:
Evan

[RACEMX-M3]

I did a ton of very extensive testing on this and huge writeup - CLICK HERE (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=573502).

[HPF Chris]

I did a ton of very extensive testing on this and huge writeup - CLICK HERE (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=573502).

Oh, and now you're beating the Ford GT even after all the mods he's done since your first race. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwzQqalChXk&feature=channel

Chris.

[RACEMX-M3]

Oh, and now you're beating the Ford GT. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwzQqalChXk&feature=channel

Chris.

Oh damn so much has happened since we did this last year. As soon as Jessie gave me a ride in his car with race fuel I knew I was getting this kit. :yikes:

[Nik@vf-engineering]

I'm hearing two things from VF S/C owners that get our turbo kits. #1) some seem to end up paying more than $12K for all the miscellaneous odds and ends for their S/C kits, #2) their "hot" dyno pulls often make less than advertised. VF S/C owners can chime in here and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just going off of what I hear and see on our dyno..

We hear similar things from 2 turbo owners currently moving over to SC. Cost tend to creep with turbos too. I have not heard of anyone complain about "miscellaneous odds and ends for the S/C kits". Buy any brand SC kit and it is pretty much 100% complete. The SC kits dont leave you with permanent CEL or disable the OEM ECU safety mode.

From about 20 independently posted enthusiast dyno plots we have never seen one of our kits under deliver on the ever popular Dynojet. In fact a majority of the time we have seen our kit dyno well over our advertized numbers. We like to over deliver.

[RACEMX-M3]

We hear similar things from 2 turbo owners currently moving over to SC. Cost tend to creep with turbos too. I have not heard of anyone complain about "miscellaneous odds and ends for the S/C kits". Buy any brand SC kit and it is pretty much 100% complete. The SC kits dont leave you with permanent CEL or disable the OEM ECU safety mode.

From about 20 independently posted enthusiast dyno plots we have never seen one of our kits under deliver on the ever popular Dynojet. In fact a majority of the time we have seen our kit dyno well over our advertized numbers. We like to over deliver.

Nik,

I think the odds and ends Chris referred to were aftermarket headers and race cats, which from my understanding are required to make full power with your kit. Are the dyno charts you all publish done with stock headers/cats or aftermarket?

[HPF Chris]

We hear similar things from 2 turbo owners currently moving over to SC. Cost tend to creep with turbos too. I have not heard of anyone complain about "miscellaneous odds and ends for the S/C kits". Buy any brand SC kit and it is pretty much 100% complete. The SC kits dont leave you with permanent CEL or disable the OEM ECU safety mode.

From about 20 independently posted enthusiast dyno plots we have never seen one of our kits under deliver on the ever popular Dynojet. In fact a majority of the time we have seen our kit dyno well over our advertized numbers. We like to over deliver.

I'm not aware of any of our 35 M3 turbo kit customers that later went to a supercharger in their M3. If this does someday occur, I'm sure you will be chatting about it on the forums. I did hear that you were trying to do a very "special" deal for Jim (AZ customer who bought HPF M3 turbo kit #1) who sold his turbo kit a year ago for financial reasons. If you want to "give" him a S/C then he'd probably take it. If not, he's been talking about getting another turbo kit from us.

Maybe some VF owners could chime in here and talk about the power their cars lay down on pump gas once their warmed up.

Chris.

[mtran850]

We hear similar things from 2 turbo owners currently moving over to SC. Cost tend to creep with turbos too. I have not heard of anyone complain about "miscellaneous odds and ends for the S/C kits". Buy any brand SC kit and it is pretty much 100% complete. The SC kits dont leave you with permanent CEL or disable the OEM ECU safety mode.

From about 20 independently posted enthusiast dyno plots we have never seen one of our kits under deliver on the ever popular Dynojet. In fact a majority of the time we have seen our kit dyno well over our advertized numbers. We like to over deliver.

If it is a HPF kit, I will like to buy it back from you, I would love to switch over my other AA supercharge m3 to another HPF turbo car. Those guy must be :loco: to switch from HPF turbo to supercharge if it is true.

[Mliner]

I'm selling my supercharger. PM me for details.

[Sleepersown]

If you are really trying to compare apples to apples, you would have seen that you shot yourself in the foot with this post.

1. Compare apples to apples if it's the route you wanna take. STAGE 1 VS STAGE 1. Plenty of room to grow ? Seems you're already at stage 2 to keep up with a stage 1 hpf kit. I hope the prospecting buyer grows quick.

2. The rwhp and crank hp line was pretty low when it's right there in your face on HPF'S site they make comparable rwhp ON STAGE 1 KITS to your stage 2. You posting your dyno on race gas should have been compared to HPF'S with race gas. They make 100+ more rwhp than you guys and considerably more tq.

3. The power is also where it needs to be ( for most people ) which is throughout the powerband ( which is why i gather HPF's kits are the choice for people with money rather than yours ).

I think you tried to take a stab at getting a deal with the wrong approach. If you were going to state facts, state ones that makes you guys look good. Not blatently losing a pissing match. I think VF's kit are GREAT for people that want some nice power for a price lower than HPF'S. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that both options will satisfy your urge for power compared to a stock m3. They're simply saying if you have the extra cash, it might be keen of you to go HPF. If VF starts making some sc kits with comparable numbers to hpf and STILL have competitive pricing, then it'll be a different story.

However, if you have the extra cash, I don't think many will disagree that you have no other proven, well known, completed kit making power to make your dad scream choice for the e46 m3 than HPF. Don't take this the wrong way, but your post just really put you out there.


Edit: Also, I think you would have had a better response from people if you would have started your post like this ...

VF offers very competitive kits that have plenty of room to grow.


For $12K you can see 467whp with VF



Race gas VF stage 2
http://www.vf-engineering.com/images/kit/bmw/e46_m3/dyno_stg2_109.gif


This is true stated facts that makes your sc kits look great and worth getting when it comes down to the value ! Promoting the obvious facts about the best things about your kit would have won my vote if I was in the market for some power. The way you displayed the kits looked pretty foolish and was completely the wrong angle IMO. You said yourself, with these economic times, not everyone has the cash to lady down on something like this. I'd imagine if you have 12k to spend on a car that's not broken in these times, you probably won't gripe at 4k extra for HPF's stage 1 that will beat your stage 2.

[05SCM3]

Those guys must be :loco: to switch from HPF turbo to supercharge if it is true.

Not likely to be true. I can't fathom some one with an HPF M3 turbo ditching it to switch over to a VFE M3 SC and being pleased with that decision.

For the sake of accuracy though, I note that Nik's post does not identify the turbo as being one of HPF's M3 Turbo kits.

[pastE36prsntE46]

Not likely to be true. I can't fathom some one with an HPF M3 turbo ditching it to switch over to a VFE M3 SC and being pleased with that decision.

For the sake of accuracy though, I note that Nik's post does not identify the turbo as being one of HPF's M3 Turbo kits.

You are correct it doesnt state HPF, but is obviously intended by the 18k+ price tag.

[hexadecim8]

If you are really trying to compare apples to apples, you would have seen that you shot yourself in the foot with this post.

1. Compare apples to apples if it's the route you wanna take. STAGE 1 VS STAGE 1. Plenty of room to grow ? Seems you're already at stage 2 to keep up with a stage 1 hpf kit. I hope the prospecting buyer grows quick.

2. The rwhp and crank hp line was pretty low when it's right there in your face on HPF'S site they make comparable rwhp ON STAGE 1 KITS to your stage 2. You posting your dyno on race gas should have been compared to HPF'S with race gas. They make 100+ more rwhp than you guys and considerably more tq.

3. The power is also where it needs to be ( for most people ) which is throughout the powerband ( which is why i gather HPF's kits are the choice for people with money rather than yours ).

I think you tried to take a stab at getting a deal with the wrong approach. If you were going to state facts, state ones that makes you guys look good. Not blatently losing a pissing match. I think VF's kit are GREAT for people that want some nice power for a price lower than HPF'S. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that both options will satisfy your urge for power compared to a stock m3. They're simply saying if you have the extra cash, it might be keen of you to go HPF. If VF starts making some sc kits with comparable numbers to hpf and STILL have competitive pricing, then it'll be a different story.

However, if you have the extra cash, I don't think many will disagree that you have no other proven, well known, completed kit making power to make your dad scream choice for the e46 m3 than HPF. Don't take this the wrong way, but your post just really put you out there.


Edit: Also, I think you would have had a better response from people if you would have started your post like this ...




This is true stated facts that makes your sc kits look great and worth getting when it comes down to the value ! Promoting the obvious facts about the best things about your kit would have won my vote if I was in the market for some power. The way you displayed the kits looked pretty foolish and was completely the wrong angle IMO. You said yourself, with these economic times, not everyone has the cash to lady down on something like this. I'd imagine if you have 12k to spend on a car that's not broken in these times, you probably won't gripe at 4k extra for HPF's stage 1 that will beat your stage 2.

Someone might want to consider hiring this gentleman on as Director of Sales for SC kits on a certain car....

[DLSJ5]

For $12,000 you can get 500RWHP and 335RWTQ on Race Fuel With VF

Or

For $18,000 you can get 600RWHP and 443RWTQ on Race Fuel With HPF (and have full torque by 4,000RPMS)


I love VF Engineering, they make great kits and if you go S/C I would go that direction, but come on Sean, don't try and say VF makes more power than HPF for less money cause its not true. Even on pump fuel, though VF Stage 2 might make more HP, does it make more Torque?? When does it make peak torque?? :4ngie:

Exibit A... HPF's Less HP Car Beats VF's Higher HP Car on pump fuel (HP Doesn't Always Win The Race)

Like I said I love VF for Superchargers, but if you can swing the Turbo, I highly reccomend it! Its a totally different car with the Turbo and TONS of FUN!!
Evan

Evan,

Sean was pointing out on pump VF makes more power and it does according to each vendor's DJ plots, then he simply posted a graph showing what it makes on race gas, could it be misconstrued, maybe, should he have presented it differently, perhaps. No doubt on race fuel the HPF car is MUCH faster anyway you slice it, if you can put the power down, TC>SC.

One note in that vid you posted up, that HPF car had leaded race fuel in it, running on pump settings, some think that hurt the car, it appears it didn't. On the dyno, same day, it made more power over the curve than the VF car, not less as you say, obviously the results in the vid make sense then, regardless if you're gonna present something, run the same fuel.

Also Scott's VF car was not running cats, my buddy and I did comparo's, 60-130 runs etc. cat vs. catless, and his car was faster with cats, the VF kit calls for cats, so Scott's car was not running the right hardware, with cats my buddy and I were pretty much heads up OTS VF Stage 2 vs. OTS VF Stage 2.

There's been few other vids where the HPF car did better pump vs. pump versus the VF car, but another HPF car trapped 112MPH on pump fuel at the best track on the west coast. I can assure you a VF stage 2 on pump fuel will trap higher than that, so there's more than one result to throw around. Regardless two well running cars are pretty close pump vs. pump, if the HPF car could run 8psi without watermeth, it would win of course.

vf2 vs hpf2 at high elevation, the SC'r loses about 1-2 psi, the hpf car does not. Both cars on 100 octane, "Rebel" 100 which is not good at all, did some comparo's with Mspired, with that 100 pump and then 91, no difference, lol. Hpf car had a passanger and some 91 in the tank, regardless both cars are pretty close boost wise here do to the elevation, the runs are very close as well. On 91+ Meth, in some other runs the HPF car won by 3 CLth's from 60-125MPH I believe.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/th_Picture098.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/?action=view&current=Picture098.flv)

[DLSJ5]

I'm not aware of any of our 35 M3 turbo kit customers that later went to a supercharger in their M3. If this does someday occur, I'm sure you will be chatting about it on the forums. I did hear that you were trying to do a very "special" deal for Jim (AZ customer who bought HPF M3 turbo kit #1) who sold his turbo kit a year ago for financial reasons. If you want to "give" him a S/C then he'd probably take it. If not, he's been talking about getting another turbo kit from us.

Maybe some VF owners could chime in here and talk about the power their cars lay down on pump gas once their warmed up.

Chris.

Chris, why in the world would you post on a public forum, the financial status of one of your former customers? A customer that BTW put you on the map with his amazing 60-130 run and vids as well. Do you really think he sold the kit for financial reasons? Especially considering he's been thinking about the 2.5 over the last few months? However like many of us now the economy is bad and it's certainly not prudent for one to spend 18- 30K on a turbo kit when he has other more important obligations and is not sure about what lies ahead in this economic enviroment. :tsk:

[HPF Chris]

Evan,

Sean was pointing out on pump VF makes more power and it does according to each vendor's DJ plots, then he simply posted a graph showing what it makes on race gas, could it be misconstrued, maybe, should he have presented it differently, perhaps. No doubt on race fuel the HPF car is MUCH faster anyway you slice it, if you can put the power down, TC>SC.

One note in that vid you posted up, that HPF car had leaded race fuel in it, running on pump settings, some think that hurt the car, it appears it didn't. On the dyno, same day, it made more power over the curve than the VF car, not less as you say, obviously the results in the vid make sense then, regardless if you're gonna present something, run the same fuel.

Also Scott's VF car was not running cats, my buddy and I did comparo's, 60-130 runs etc. cat vs. catless, and his car was faster with cats, the VF kit calls for cats, so Scott's car was not running the right hardware, with cats my buddy and I were pretty much heads up OTS VF Stage 2 vs. OTS VF Stage 2.

There's been few other vids where the HPF car did better pump vs. pump versus the VF car, but another HPF car trapped 112MPH on pump fuel at the best track on the west coast. I can assure you a VF stage 2 on pump fuel will trap higher than that, so there's more than one result to throw around. Regardless two well running cars are pretty close pump vs. pump, if the HPF car could run 8psi without watermeth, it would win of course.

vf2 vs hpf2 at high elevation, the SC'r loses about 1-2 psi, the hpf car does not. Both cars on 100 octane, "Rebel" 100 which is not good at all, did some comparo's with Mspired, with that 100 pump and then 91, no difference, lol. Hpf car had a passanger and some 91 in the tank, regardless both cars are pretty close boost wise here do to the elevation, the runs are very close as well. On 91+ Meth, in some other runs the HPF car won by 3 CLth's from 60-125MPH I believe.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/th_Picture098.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/?action=view&current=Picture098.flv)

Here's a lot of info if you want to read about the differences from my point of view.

The HPF stage 1 kit should trap more than 112mph in the 1/4 mile because it is a solid 425rwhp when hot. In my Supra I was running 11.5's at 123mph with the same horsepower. If the low trap occured then it was one of two things. The car had major tire spin or there was something wrong with it. None of our cars with proper tires and a good driver should be trapping less than 119 or 120mph on pump. Remember, drivers and tires can make a huge difference and the M3 is not designed to run small 15 or 16" wheels without getting smaller rear brakes. The smaller wheels allow much larger tires that create a bigger footprint and with the added flex in the sidewall much faster times can be run at the track.

As far as the power comparisons between superchargers and turbo systems...

One thing everyone must understand is that there's no magical way to make power.
#1) vanos control (I assume all of us do this - atleast I know we do)
#2) boost (all kits are running similar boost)
#3) fuel delivery (we're all optimizing this)
#4) timing (we're all optimizing this).

Now here's the rub. When you look at our graphs, VF's graphs and AA's dyno graphs are very smooth with pump gas. On our dyno graphs you'll notice the pump gas pulls do not look smooth. The HPF cars feel smooth on the road, but the dyno graph shows a jagged edge. However, all of our methanol and race fuel graphs show a smooth line. Ever wonder why?

Here's why... With the high compression engine and low octane fuel, timing must be retarded when running boost and the more boost you run, the later in the combustion cycle you must fire the plug. If you advance timing when running more boost you will make more power but because of the low octane rating of the fuel (its resistance to pre-ignition), the fuel/air mixture will start to fire before it's supposed to. This is pre-ignition. If this is soon enough, the piston will be slammed the opposite direction of the rod and the rod will get bent and often fly out the side of the block or at minimum the piston ring land will break and you'll see low compression on one or two cylinders but the car will still run, it will just run with a miss.

Our kit and VF's kit take two different approaches to this problem. VF's kit allows the computer to advance timing until the knock event and then pull it back when knock occurs. The factory DME in VF's kit will keep timing retarded for awhile and continually try to advance it over time in case better fuel is added to the tank. This is why when people run better gas they get an instant increase in power.

We've designed our kit to run on 91 octane because ours does not continually try and advance timing and see where this knock event occurs. Instead we put switches in the car to tell the computer if methanol or race fuel are used and we made our base map for pump gas to expect a minimum of 91 octane or higher. To protect the engine with 91 octane we fire the spark plug later in the combustion cycle which keeps the cylinder temps from running away. You see this appear as a wavy line on the dyno graph. As we advance timing (even on pump gas) this jagged line turns into a smooth line and for every degree of timing we add, we pick up a "substantial" amount of power. We can literally make 525rwhp at 6psi on every M3 we do with timing and better gas. But for our pump gas map, we assume 91 octane is used and run as much timing as "safely" possible which lands these cars at around 425rwhp. At around 450rwhp the car sees knock.

The second difference is a turbo runs on exhaust energy while a supercharger is driven by the crankshaft just like the alternator and air conditioner. Ever wonder why your car is slower with the air-conditioner on? Now imagine an air-conditioner that takes 30-50rwhp to drive and that's how much howerpower a supercharger takes to drive it at red-line. A turbo is driven off the exhaust energy that is already flowing out the tailpipe of your car. It's like a windmill that's just placed in the way. This creates slightly more back-pressure on the exhaust energy leaving, but takes very little horsepower to drive it.

Now back to the smooth line of supercharger kits that I see advertised. A smooth line can be achieved as long as the boost is low enough for timing to be advanced. Once you increase boost you have to retard timing or risk engine damage. Often times you can get away with it for one or maybe even two dyno pulls as the engine is warming up, but once that engine and intercooler is warm (steady state) you will see knock if the timing isn't adjusted to correlate to the boost run.

The VF kit is advancing the timing hence creating the smooth line, and this would be expected for good fuel. However, when 91 octane is used, subsequent pulls are dropping in power because the temps are heating up and the DME is pulling out timing. On our dyno we're seeing drops as much at 50rwhp on the S/C cars we've dyno'd. When our customers M3's are racing VF's M3's over and over again, we're seeing a very similar result. A VF S/C'd M3 that ices his intercooler down and then immediately races an HPF turbo M3 will actually be very very close. The second time they run the HPF car will pull ahead quite evidently, and subsequent pulls will show even more disparity.

There's just no way to make up for the lost energy of driving the supercharger, and the lost power from getting full boost so late in the rpm range.

I think it would be better for consumers if VF advertised their supercharger kits with the power the cars make once the engine and intercooler are in a "steady state", and not the power they make when the cars are cold. I'm not seeing this on my dyno and I don't think VF customers are seeing this either. If you're a VF customer and you see otherwise on your car (on pump gas only - no methanol), please post up your graphs to contradict this. If VF wants to let a customer come over to their dyno and do a few free pulls (please let the customer put 91 octane pump in their car), and then post up the results I'd like to see it. I'll also offer the same free dyno to any VF customers in the Northwest if they want to come over.

Thanks.
Chris.

[DLSJ5]

Here's a lot of info if you want to read about the differences from my point of view.

The HPF stage 1 kit should trap more than 112mph in the 1/4 mile because it is a solid 425rwhp when hot. In my Supra I was running 11.5's at 123mph with the same horsepower. If the low trap occured then it was one of two things. The car had major tire spin or there was something wrong with it. None of our cars with proper tires and a good driver should be trapping less than 119 or 120mph on pump. Remember, drivers and tires can make a huge difference and the M3 is not designed to run small 15 or 16" wheels without getting smaller rear brakes. The smaller wheels allow much larger tires that create a bigger footprint and with the added flex in the sidewall much faster times can be run at the track.

As far as the power comparisons between superchargers and turbo systems...

One thing everyone must understand is that there's no magical way to make power.
#1) vanos control (I assume all of us do this - atleast I know we do)
#2) boost (all kits are running similar boost)
#3) fuel delivery (we're all optimizing this)
#4) timing (we're all optimizing this).

Now here's the rub. When you look at our graphs, VF's graphs and AA's dyno graphs are very smooth with pump gas. On our dyno graphs you'll notice the pump gas pulls do not look smooth. The HPF cars feel smooth on the road, but the dyno graph shows a jagged edge. However, all of our methanol and race fuel graphs show a smooth line. Ever wonder why?

Here's why... With the high compression engine and low octane fuel, timing must be retarded when running boost and the more boost you run, the later in the combustion cycle you must fire the plug. If you advance timing when running more boost you will make more power but because of the low octane rating of the fuel (its resistance to pre-ignition), the fuel/air mixture will start to fire before it's supposed to. This is pre-ignition. If this is soon enough, the piston will be slammed the opposite direction of the rod and the rod will get bent and often fly out the side of the block or at minimum the piston ring land will break and you'll see low compression on one or two cylinders but the car will still run, it will just run with a miss.

Our kit and VF's kit take two different approaches to this problem. VF's kit allows the computer to advance timing until the knock event and then pull it back when knock occurs. The factory DME in VF's kit will keep timing retarded for awhile and continually try to advance it over time in case better fuel is added to the tank. This is why when people run better gas they get an instant increase in power.

We've designed our kit to run on 91 octane because ours does not continually try and advance timing and see where this knock event occurs. Instead we put switches in the car to tell the computer if methanol or race fuel are used and we made our base map for pump gas to expect a minimum of 91 octane or higher. To protect the engine with 91 octane we fire the spark plug later in the combustion cycle which keeps the cylinder temps from running away. You see this appear as a wavy line on the dyno graph. As we advance timing (even on pump gas) this jagged line turns into a smooth line and for every degree of timing we add, we pick up a "substantial" amount of power. We can literally make 525rwhp at 6psi on every M3 we do with timing and better gas. But for our pump gas map, we assume 91 octane is used and run as much timing as "safely" possible which lands these cars at around 425rwhp. At around 450rwhp the car sees knock.

The second difference is a turbo runs on exhaust energy while a supercharger is driven by the crankshaft just like the alternator and air conditioner. Ever wonder why your car is slower with the air-conditioner on? Now imagine an air-conditioner that takes 30-50rwhp to drive and that's how much howerpower a supercharger takes to drive it at red-line. A turbo is driven off the exhaust energy that is already flowing out the tailpipe of your car. It's like a windmill that's just placed in the way. This creates slightly more back-pressure on the exhaust energy leaving, but takes very little horsepower to drive it.

Now back to the smooth line of supercharger kits that I see advertised. A smooth line can be achieved as long as the boost is low enough for timing to be advanced. Once you increase boost you have to retard timing or risk engine damage. Often times you can get away with it for one or maybe even two dyno pulls as the engine is warming up, but once that engine and intercooler is warm you will see knock if the timing isn't adjusted to correlate to the boost run.

The VF kit is advancing the timing hence creating the smooth line, and this would be expected for good fuel. However, when 91 octane is used, subsequent pulls are dropping in power because the temps are heating up and the DME is pulling out timing. On our dyno we're seeing drops as much at 50rwhp. When our customers M3's are racing VF's M3's over and over again, we're seeing a very similar result. A customer that ices his intercooler down and then immediately races an HPF turbo M3 will actually be very very close. The second time they run the HPF car will pull ahead quite evidently, and subsequent pulls will show even more disparity.

There's just no way to make up for the lost energy of driving the supercharger, and the lost power from getting full boost so late in the rpm range.

I think it would be better for consumers if VF advertised their supercharger kits with the power the cars make once the engine and intercooler are warmed up on the 3rd or 4th pull on pump gas, and not the power they make when the cars are cold. I'm not seeing this on my dyno and I don't think VF customers are seeing this either. If you're a VF customer and you see otherwise on your car (on pump gas only - no methanol), please post up your graphs to contradict this. If VF wants to let a customer come over to their dyno and do a few free pulls (please let the customer put 91 octane pump in their car), and then post up the results I'd like to see it. I'll also offer the same free dyno to any VF customers in the Northwest if they want to come over.

Thanks.
Chris.

Much of that is true and makes sense, not sure on some of the power loss #'s. I'm not hear really to debunk or debate with you what's better an HPF setup or a SC'r setup in terms of power, lol, that's not debatable, but the pump #'s are close enough to make it an interesting discussion, and much of your response corralates with that, fair enough. I simply replied to Evan what I felt were the specifics regarding what Sean was saying and letting everyone here know some of the possible flaws in Scott's extensive testing.

Im' a fan Bro, not a detractor, but there are many happy SC'r owners who don't feel the need for monster power as well and based on a good amount of results from AA and VF owners, the cars are plenty fast. On the drag racing, I don't need any info on how to run good times though, I beat your HPF M3 ET with my VFE setup. :shhh: :D

On the heatsoak issue, regrading timing pull, here's some dyno's back to back runs on 91, compared to back to back runs on the car that you use as reference most of the time. Agreed with the modern ECU when the car gets heatsoaked it retards timing, etc. so I would guess after more runs the car would go down in power and, due to heatsoak, especially sitting still on a dyno, I'm not sure you can replicate the amount of air blowing on the chargecooler in most dyno rooms, unless it's blowing quite a bit of air. If the car is losing 50WHP after a few pulls, then something else is wrong I would think.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/DLSJ5/Scott_Drew_0_smoothing.jpg

[HPF Chris]

Chris, why in the world would you post on a public forum, the financial status of one of your former customers? A customer that BTW put you on the map with his amazing 60-130 run and vids as well. Do you really think he sold the kit for financial reasons? Especially considering he's been thinking about the 2.5 over the last few months? However like many of us now the economy is bad and it's certainly not prudent for one to spend 18- 30K on a turbo kit when he has other more important obligations and is not sure about what lies ahead in this economic enviroment. :tsk:

Some could have interpreted VF's prior post on this thread that people were selling HPF turbo systems and buying VF kits. That just isn't happening and the only person who sold is kit is Jim and it was no secret as to why.

Weren't Drew's pulls using methanol/water injection? Scott's dyno graphs were more like what we've seen on pump gas. If you look at the graph you'll see how smooth Drew's curve is and how jagedy Scott's are. That's the difference between the DME pulling out timing and not pulling out timing. In Scott's graph it looks like a major knock event happened at 7,800rpm on pull #3, and pull#5. I would assume from this that pull #6 would show even less.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/DLSJ5/Scott_Drew_0_smoothing.jpg

Chris.

[DLSJ5]

Some could have interpreted VF's prior post on this thread that people were selling HPF turbo systems and buying VF kits. That just isn't happening and the only person who sold is kit is Jim and it was no secret as to why.

Weren't Drew's pulls using methanol/water injection? Scott's dyno graphs were more like what we've seen.

Chris.

Well if Jim posted in a thread that he did it for financial reasons, then I apologize, if he did not, then you were out of line in disclosing that. I agree if one is looking for more power it does not make sense to go to a SC'r, maybe Jim did it for other reasons, I don't know.

No I was not using WM in those pulls, 91 ONLY.

[HPF Chris]

Well if Jim posted in a thread that he did it for financial reasons, then I apologize, if he did not, then you were out of line in disclosing that. I agree if one is looking for more power it does not make sense to go to a SC'r, maybe Jim did it for other reasons, I don't know.

No I was not using WM in those pulls, 91 ONLY.

Drew... I've seen your dyno graphs before and you are the only one I've seen to be making those #'s on pump with the VF kit. Are there any others beside you that you could post them up? Your dyno graphs appear to have no timing pulled out of them as they're smooth. Were you doing any icing of the IC or supercharger?

Chris.

[DLSJ5]

Scott's dyno graphs were more like what we've seen on pump gas.
Chris.

Who's vehicles? How about AA's dyno's? You stop posting the bad ones after you became partners with them? :)

If the dyno facility does not have proper fans or if it's hot in the dyno room, then yes the ECU should pull timing, it's the way it's supposed to work. Scott's curve is jagged on the 1st pull BTW, definently not happy from the start, but he didn't loose 50WHP.

[DLSJ5]

Drew... I've seen your dyno graphs before and you are the only one I've seen to be making those #'s on pump with the VF kit. Are there any others beside you that you could post them up? Your dyno graphs appear to have no timing pulled out of them as they're smooth. Were you doing any icing of the IC or supercharger?

Chris.

Chris, there is no way I can prove to you other than my word what went on with my car, same with you and the two VF cars you've dynoed. I've never iced my car down at a dyno session, only once while doing 60-130 runs, the results were my times were not better, in fact they were slightly worse!

[bimmerfan08]

HPF all the way! (if you can afford it, but im sure your tax break shouldnt be that big)

[HPF Chris]

Chris, there is no way I can prove to you other than my word what went on with my car, same with you and the two VF cars you've dynoed. I've never iced my car down at a dyno session, only once while doing 60-130 runs, the results were my times were not better, in fact they were slightly worse!

Drew, your car definitely performed well. I'm not posting up the VF dynos on our dyno because they were on cars that were not performing as advertised. I'd like to see some other VF dyno graphs from their customers who's cars are running well to be fair. They jumped into this thread and other threads with their 450rwhp dyno graphs, and I'm stating unless someone can prove otherwise that those aren't "steady state" results.

At our Supra events we would always have a dyno competition. It was always nice to see how our cars did and they didn't charge very much. I'm more than willing to host a dyno event at our facility, and I'll do it for free for E46 M3 owners with any type of forced induction.

Anyone interested?

Chris.

[BimmerDude18]

Who's vehicles? How about AA's dyno's? You stop posting the bad ones after you became partners with them? :)

If the dyno facility does not have proper fans or if it's hot in the dyno room, then yes the ECU should pull timing, it's the way it's supposed to work. Scott's curve is jagged on the 1st pull BTW, definently not happy from the start, but he didn't loose 50WHP.
In 3 pulls he lost 25, that is a lot for 3 pulls to lose. I'd be curious to see 10 straight.

What makes me trust kits is their ability to replicate themselves under heat loading. It means either the tune is conservative, or the hardware is overdesigned.

That goes for all FI kits.

[DLSJ5]

In 3 pulls he lost 25, that is a lot for 3 pulls to lose. I'd be curious to see 10 straight.

What makes me trust kits is their ability to replicate themselves under heat loading. It means either the tune is conservative, or the hardware is overdesigned.

That goes for all FI kits.

Agreed, his car was not happy on that dyno.

[pastE36prsntE46]

This has turned into a very interesting/knowledgeable discussion:popcorn:

[BimmerDude18]

Agreed, his car was not happy on that dyno.

Has it performed differently on others.

I know (factory so weak comparison) that the dyno's put down by the VQ35HR cars (newer Z's) are within 3 hp or so for over 10 runs straight. At the drag strip I run dead nuts consistent even hotlapping. If an FI kit can't do that something needs to be changed or upgraded (in my opinion) period.

That can be as simple as better gas, water meth, etc.

[HPF Chris]

Agreed, his car was not happy on that dyno.

Yes... If you look at this graph you can see that after each knock event the power dropped immediately and timing was retarded for the next dyno pull. With peak boost happening at red-line, peak power should have been there as well but it's happening around 7,700rpm where the pre-ignition is occuring. The final pull had a big knock event at 7,700rpm and if the pattern would have continued we would have seen the next pull most likely around the "steady state" condition where pre-ignition isn't occuring anymore. These pre-ignition situations are dangerous, and it only takes one good one to start breaking parts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/DLSJ5/Scott_Drew_0_smoothing.jpg

[DLSJ5]

Drew, your car definitely performed well. I'm not posting up the VF dynos on our dyno because they were on cars that were not performing as advertised. I'd like to see some other VF dyno graphs from their customers who's cars are running well to be fair. They jumped into this thread and other threads with their 450rwhp dyno graphs, and I'm stating unless someone can prove otherwise that those aren't "steady state" results.

At our Supra events we would always have a dyno competition. It was always nice to see how our cars did and they didn't charge very much. I'm more than willing to host a dyno event at our facility, and I'll do it for free for E46 M3 owners with any type of forced induction.

Anyone interested?

Chris.

Chris you mentioned the VF cars, you brought it up, lol, if you're not going to supplement your accusations, then don't post how you've tested these cars and they don't deliver. I'm sure more SC'r guys will move up to HPF, because they want power and you have a good product, not because they want you to use bad dyno's as a marketing tool, I've yet to hear say or post any dyno's from a SC'd cars that are good.

It makes no difference whether you post the graphs or not, you are here to create doubt about the competitors, those two VF cars you worked on, one I know had some problems, are not completely indicitive of what VF cars have done. AA dyno's are all over the place as well, 5 friends who own the kit, dyno's with the same setups that varied drastically, they did not perform the same on the street either. I've ran one other VF Stage 2 car, we were pretty heads up, ran the same 1/4 mile times and traps on the same day, he dynoed 450WHP without cats, not sure what he would have hit with them, but probably around what I hit.

[HPF Chris]

Chris you mentioned the VF cars, you brought it up, lol, if you're not going to supplement your accusations, then don't post how you've tested these cars and they don't deliver. I'm sure more SC'r guys will move up to HPF, because they want power and you have a good product, not because they want you to use bad dyno's as a marketing tool, I've yet to hear say or post any dyno's from a SC'd cars that are good.

It makes no difference whether you post the graphs or not, you are here to create doubt about the competitors, those two VF cars you worked on, one I know had some problems, are not completely indicitive of what VF cars have done. AA dyno's are all over the place as well, 5 friends who own the kit, dyno's with the same setups that varied drastically, they did not perform the same on the street either. I've ran one other VF Stage 2 car, we were pretty heads up, ran the same 1/4 mile times and traps on the same day, he dynoed 450WHP without cats, not sure what he would have hit with them, but probably around what I hit.

I don't want to get into a VF vs AA vs HPF thread as that continues to happen anyway. Nobody has ever doubted your car including me.

I just want companies in our market space to be real. You're right that VF sales don't impact mine very much because our kits are more expensive. But you'd better believe VF customers call us all the time and talk about their cars.

I'm asking for other people to post up their "independent" dyno graphs on pump gas and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. For those that have never gone to another dyno, I'm offering to dyno their car for free and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

This isn't m3forum where when you question VF you get banned. I'm all about taking the high road and if people want to listen I'll tell them what I think and what my experience has been.

Chris.

[DLSJ5]

Has it performed differently on others.

I know (factory so weak comparison) that the dyno's put down by the VQ35HR cars (newer Z's) are within 3 hp or so for over 10 runs straight. At the drag strip I run dead nuts consistent even hotlapping. If an FI kit can't do that something needs to be changed or upgraded (in my opinion) period.

That can be as simple as better gas, water meth, etc.

I don't think Scott's car ever did well on a dyno, did pretty good on race gas 60-130 though. Better gas is the answer Bro, at the drag strip I ran very consistantly, even when it got hotter out, running only ms109 no water/meth. Last time I went my buddies HPF car was there as well, and we trapped about the same, I had a better ET, traction, on the highway he pulls pretty good after 135 though, but his car never seemend to run quite right, so maybe not indicitive of most HPF cars, although a handful have ran similiar times and traps to mine, one other hitting a blazing 139 trap though.

Regardless when you add boost to a car with 11.5:1 compression, normality goes out the window, temps increase, so after several runs on pump fuel, timing being retarded, is not abnormal.

[GJGM3]

Question: How many fault codes are there with VFE and how many with HPF turbo?

[ST06M3]

Holy smokes, I just got home from work and I see quite the activity and I am mentioned several times. Thanks for the fame guys.

Just to clear the air, I never said I had financial reasons, I wanted to get rid of the car cause I was spending too much money (wife is killling me)....I guess its finance related, but more like no finances. So I must agree with Drew. Also, I might have misspoke but I am not doing anything right now. I dont have any alliances or "special relations" with any of the F/I vendors. But I must admit, I was really interested in buying Drew's used kit cause it was a great deal ($8K for everything) plus how can you dispute an 11.6 sec 1/4 mile run on the VFE Stg 2+. The "special pricing" was only to get a good deal on the install but that fell through. Right now, I am itching to buy an F/I kit....my brain says HPF.....but my wallet says.......VFE or ESS $6K kits.....so I am in a holding pattern :tsk:, for the moment.

[DLSJ5]

I don't want to get into a VF vs AA vs HPF thread as that continues to happen anyway. Nobody has ever doubted your car including me.

I just want companies in our market space to be real. You're right that VF sales don't impact mine very much because our kits are more expensive. But you'd better believe VF customers call us all the time and talk about their cars..

Chris as enthusiasts we all talk too, I can assure you of a few things, the HPF owners I know have not been trouble free, but they are also very happy with their kit and your customer service, I can assure you as well most AA and VFE customers are happy, they call you for one reason really, they want more power and you make a good kit, I called you a year or so ago remember? Digging for dirt is a dead end IMHO, if you say you don't doubt my car, then why not let it go?

I'm asking for other people to post up their "independent" dyno graphs on pump gas and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. For those that have never gone to another dyno, I'm offering to dyno their car for free and I don't think there's anything wrong with that..

Why? What's the point, one thing is interesting, whether it's you or AA, or ESS, you all seem very interested and invest alot of time in looking into VFE's dyno's, and GIAC tuning, but could care less about others kits, why is that? VFE is not successful with the E46 because they don't deliver, don't you think? Or are we all just being bamboozled?

This isn't m3forum where when you question VF you get banned. I'm all about taking the high road and if people want to listen I'll tell them what I think and what my experience has been.

Chris.

I disagree with that, plenty of VF bashing has gone on, AA as well and yes HPF too, alot of it unwarranted. Personally I think you should be allowed back based on the product you make, and you have several great enthusiasts running your kit, Evan, Scott, Tommy, Rob, come to mind, and it appears some posts have been moved for the wrong reasons, I've had posts moved to and didn't like it, oh well. Either way you have plenty or good people rep'ing your product there, some amazing stuff from Scott especially, and just about every enthusiast is a big fan of your kit.

Correction Jim, 11.51 was my best time. :D No where near as impressive as your 60-130 though Brotha.

[Ravij]

Lets end this thread!

I will set-up a couple runs this week! I, HPF stg2 on 91 oct with meth disconnected(vert), and my good friend, Derek, with a VF stg2 on 91 oct(coupe).

I will make some vids and post them up!

Hows that sound?
Ravi

[[TYPE]SS]

I'm more than willing to host a dyno event at our facility, and I'll do it for free for E46 M3 owners with any type of forced induction.

Anyone interested?

Chris.

gotta give props to HPF(chris) for saying this. it would be really awesome watching F/I guys of all brands on the SAME DYNO on SAME GAS(from pump to pump, pump&meth, race and race & meth). post videos and dyno charts. it will answer lot of questions.
do it~ do it~

[HPF Chris]

VF posted their dyno on this thread and their dynos don't look like what I've been seeing. I gave some solid information about timing and boost and also about supercharging and turbocharging. I can refrain from posting this type of information if people don't want to hear about my experiences tuning these cars.

Chris.

[imapimp]

Here is my dyno graph/thread I posted on m3forum awhile ago: And that was a hot 90 degree day.

Finally, got a chance to post my Dynojet Run at HIN Nightshift in Chicago this past Aug. The #'s are SAE corrected and were done on Valvoline's Dynojet.

A little info about the car:
2004 M3 Vert 6 speed
VF Stage 2 Supercharger Kit (S-Trim Blower)
OEM CSL Headers
Kreis-Sieg Exhaust (Sec.1 & 2 and muffler, open mode)
19" SSR GT2-H Wheels

486whp and for some reason I cant get torque #s to show up on the graph but they were at 33Xwtq.

I am very happy with the kit so far and have almost 20k miles on the kit. Temps stay same as stock and manifold is always cool to the touch.

VF's customer support is great and Nik is always willing to help even after hours. But soon more powa, high flow cats and a T-Trim Blower is in the works :halm:

Here is the graph:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/habib19/04_M3_VF_Stg2_485whp.jpg

[imapimp]

Here is another one from when I first got it and had stock mids only the GruppeM muffler:
I only have this one run on the graph. This dyno was obviously done at P&L Motorsports on their awd dynojet.

Corrected
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/habib19/e46VFsuperchargedsmoothed.jpg
Uncorrected
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/habib19/e46VFsuperchargeduncorrected.jpg

[HPF Chris]

Here is another one from when I first got it and had stock mids only the GruppeM muffler:
I only have this one run on the graph. This dyno was obviously done at P&L Motorsports on their awd dynojet.


Those are great #'s. Were those on pump and if so, what octane and did you use a mix with octane booster or race fuel? If they were on pump by itself then I stand corrected. If others are getting these numbers on pump, then I apologize for even jumping in here. I just haven't been seeing them, but I'll admit I'm wrong if that's the case.

Chris.

[Ravij]

imapimp,

Is this your vert?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm3miCgkk1Y

[HPFMTRE]

I don't think Scott's car ever did well on a dyno, did pretty good on race gas 60-130 though. Better gas is the answer Bro, at the drag strip I ran very consistantly, even when it got hotter out, running only ms109 no water/meth. Last time I went my buddies HPF car was there as well, and we trapped about the same, I had a better ET, traction, on the highway he pulls pretty good after 135 though, but his car never seemend to run quite right, so maybe not indicitive of most HPF cars, although a handful have ran similiar times and traps to mine, one other hitting a blazing 139 trap though.

Regardless when you add boost to a car with 11.5:1 compression, normality goes out the window, temps increase, so after several runs on pump fuel, timing being retarded, is not abnormal.

Drew we all know your car was the fastest VF car..

lets not take this out of hand guys! its starting to get intense we are all friends here!

i was trapping 125 consitantly that day with street tires and no meth! not the best trap but still pretty damn good..and yes my SMG was giving me problems that wasnt our best day as we both know it haha but atleast we showed all the Porsche guys what m3s can do!

[imapimp]

imapimp,

Is this your vert?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm3miCgkk1Y

Yes.

Keep in mind that is vert (me) vs coupe. I also believe the outcome would have been different if we both didnt have to start in 3rd gear at ~35-40 cuz that puts me at a disadvantage. I believe if we did 2nd gear at ~35-40 it would be different outcome coupe vs coupe or vert vs vert.

Dont get me wrong not saying HPF cars arent fast but hpf stage 1 pump vs vf stage 2 pump is a close match. Really depends on conditions of race. Also would like to see a race from a dead stop.

Once he turned meth on it was even faster but I don't like the idea of having methanol. Thats why I went VF because they put up better #s against other S/C without the need for meth. The aftercooler is always cool to the touch too and I have actually tried it numerous times. They have Nik on a vid touching it so I thought it was a bogus marketing/advertisement and wanted to call them out. After trying it out I realized they were truthful and honest about it.

[imapimp]

Those are great #'s. Were those on pump and if so, what octane and did you use a mix with octane booster or race fuel? If they were on pump by itself then I stand corrected. If others are getting these numbers on pump, then I apologize for even jumping in here. I just haven't been seeing them, but I'll admit I'm wrong if that's the case.

Chris.

Pump 93 octane, no fuel booster or octane booster.

[Nik@vf-engineering]

Here are just a couple more independently dynod cars.
We have about 50 or so E46 M3s dynod on our Dynojet 224XLC which all made above our advertized power. Hot run or cold run, ignition timing or knock corrected, sae, din or uncorrected, whatever, our numbers hold up because they are scientifically reproduceable and translate into real world trap speeds.

Posting dyno plots as Sean did, creates a little debate. Posting a video of a turbo car with 14psi running a supercharged 9psi car to sell more turbo kits is a little beyond a debate. We do not have any "heat" with turbo kit manufacturers, there is no competition. With over 200x E46 M3 superchargers sold we have nothing more to prove than our track record.

Jeff2005M3 from Manhattan, New York make 468whp on 93 octane pump gas with stock exhaust.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=226139&highlight=vf+dyno+plot

Jeff2005M3 makes 477whp with upgraded headers and exhaust 93 octane
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=238056&highlight=vf+dyno+plot

NAMotorwerks Zaks E46M3 makes 489whp on 93octane pump gas
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=202263&highlight=vf-engineering

[HPFMTRE]

Here are just a couple more independently dynod cars.
We have about 50 or so E46 M3s dynod on our Dynojet 224XLC which all made above our advertized power. Hot run or cold run, ignition timing or knock corrected, sae, din or uncorrected, whatever, our numbers hold up because they are scientifically reproduceable and translate into real world trap speeds.

Posting dyno plots as Sean did, creates a little debate. Posting a video of a turbo car with 14psi running a supercharged 9psi car to sell more turbo kits is a little beyond a debate. We do not have any "heat" with turbo kit manufacturers, there is no competition. With over 200x E46 M3 superchargers sold we have nothing more to prove than our track record.

Jeff2005M3 from Manhattan, New York make 468whp on 93 octane pump gas with stock exhaust.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=226139&highlight=vf+dyno+plot

Jeff2005M3 makes 477whp with upgraded headers and exhaust 93 octane
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=238056&highlight=vf+dyno+plot

NAMotorwerks Zaks E46M3 makes 489whp on 93octane pump gas
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=202263&highlight=vf-engineering

nvm i deleted what i said im not gonna get into this. pay no attention to this post!

[DLSJ5]

Drew we all know your car was the fastest VF car..

lets not take this out of hand guys! its starting to get intense we are all friends here!

i was trapping 125 consitantly that day with street tires and no meth! not the best trap but still pretty damn good..and yes my SMG was giving me problems that wasnt our best day as we both know it haha but atleast we showed all the Porsche guys what m3s can do!

Always fun hanging with you Bro, good times ahead as well. :)

[DLSJ5]

Rob, when you get your car back, I have a few cars I want you to run! Should be some good vids for HPF. :)

[HPFMTRE]

Agreed, I wish they felt that way too Bro, as their on their website, lol.

i shouldnt have said that i dont wanna get in the middle of this. lol

[HPFMTRE]

Agreed, I wish they felt that way too Bro, as their on their website, lol.


The videos on their website are just showing what their product can do i dont think they are trying to bash any other company by posting the runs.anyways they are both great companies!!! and if someone wants the best in the M3 world they go to VF or HPF simple as that.

[zero4]

Why are E46 M3's going against other E46 M3's? We should be going after the other more expensive cars!!!

[HPF Chris]

Why are E46 M3's going against other E46 M3's? We should be going after the other more expensive cars!!!

Agreed. I love you guys. :) Lets run down some other cars at MFest. Maybe I'll even buy Nik a drink. :)

Speaking of that, what other cars are coming to MFest?

[Nik@vf-engineering]

.. Maybe I'll even buy Nik a drink. :)



What do you mean "maybe".

You were walking around with large glasses of redbull and no vodka. Maybe you have forgotten, I topped up your glasses pretty high with vodka. At $500 a bottle that night, it will be your turn in April.

[HPF Chris]

What do you mean "maybe".

You were walking around with large glasses of redbull and no vodka. Maybe you have forgotten, I topped up your glasses pretty high with vodka. At $500 a bottle that night, it will be your turn in April.

I knew that Vodka was expensive but holy crap. I'll return the favor at MFest. I know some good Absolut Vodka that tastes even better. Add some Red Bull to it and you won't even taste the difference. :)

Chris.

[HPFMTRE]

I knew that Vodka was expensive but holy crap. I'll return the favor at MFest. I know some good Absolut Vodka that tastes even better. Add some Red Bull to it and you won't even taste the difference. :)

Chris.

Chris at Mfest last year... HAHAHA :rofl:

[E36-Poser]

HPF Chris,
I dont know how you do it man.
Posting on the forums at all hours of the day and night, tuning cars, doing dyno pulls, and running your company. I hope you are a bachelor!
I hardly have time to check a forum once a day...if I'm lucky, and I only work 30 hours a week!
No wonder your products kick ass, you probably dont sleep at all, spend all day and night refining your designs and tunes.
this was a good read, I am strictly on here to educate myself, and I have learned a lot!
It can be summed up right here: turbo > S/C

[RACEMX-M3]

I knew that Vodka was expensive but holy crap. I'll return the favor at MFest. I know some good Absolut Vodka that tastes even better. Add some Red Bull to it and you won't even taste the difference. :)

Chris.

Chris plays poker all night so he needs a lot of RedBull to offset the Long Island IT's. In Vegas I drink RedBull vodka just long enough to lose $100 at the blackjack table and then I'm done. The best part about MFest is watching all the MGirls strut around in their underwear at the car meet. :)

[Sleepersown]

I'm glad this thread was started as there was some very good information passed along by some good people. My question to those in the know is, as far as stated to the end user ( the customer ) who really cares about how much psi is going into the car ? I believe the important questions are, how much does this cost and how much power do i get from it. This is due to the fact that if any company has cars blowing up due to their hardware/tuning, I don't think that company will last long period. So who really cares about psi ? For some ( if not most that go fi and aren't car savvy ) they get scared of that number. Why ? If you're running 15 psi on a T25 it's nothing compared to just 5 psi from a T67 ( of course using the same engine ). How much power the engine will be able to safely run on the tune is the important question.

Also, One company sells s/c's the other t/c's. I'm pretty sure people know both can make some great numbers. Question is, how much do you want ? Everyone knows you have to pay to play. Who cares about a stage 1 beating a stage 2 ON PUMP FUEL ? That same stage one ( HPF ) will more than likely beat that same stage 2 ( VF ) if they went on the race fuel. And if you had the extra 2500 ( plus 500 for installation if you're having HPF do it ) for stage 2 ( HPF ) You'd beat the stage 2 VF kit all the time with an extra 5 bucks worth of meth ( and that's stages being equal ). And wtf is the problem with people downing power adders ? So what you lost because your kit doesn't have meth, go get some and come back to race. IT'S 5 BUCKS FOR 50+ WHP ! ! ! WHO WOULDN'T WANT THAT ? ? ? ? People that have stock m3's can say you're cheating because you have a big ass turbo or blower on your car wtf ! Seriously people, you purchase a kit for the power given that your pockets can afford. If your car couldn't beat the other car, that means your pockets aren't deep enough. Not that your s/c is better than my turbo or my turbo is better than your s/c.

I'm sorry for the rant but the nit picking between car owners of extreme hp is rediculous. Your e46 bmw runs with the likes of cars that cost 5x as much...be happy about it ! WTF ! ! ! I swear, some people just need to start driving civics again and learn to really appreciate what they have when they have it.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Hate to inject on the thread , but price seems to be the main criteria where all real objectivity is overlooked. Active has allayed the fears over the last 5yrs. of the problem with theS54, HC 11.5 :1 ratio motor.. this is considered Kaboom area especially without intercooling and precise tuning. It is risky and dangerous to mislead customers along a path of devastation.. Active sees this as a bad seed sown to damage the good in the industry, because of monetary greed and desperation...

I believe Chris is upset at the marketing done by Sean at VF in the earlier post on page 1. With this "not require water/meth or internals to make BIG power!". I can post more on this if you like and why it is not a very educated post... Followed by power claims or a power vs price in his favor.

The dyno charts not being smooth is very simple. The software is not up to par and the DME is fighting as hard as it can to save the engine...

In other words cosmetic hardware should be replaced with sound and more accurate engineering principles, to promote economic values and fairness with realistic power gains to the product in marketplace,.Not misleading and harmful ideas used only for financial gains...

[Nik@vf-engineering]

I knew that Vodka was expensive but holy crap. I'll return the favor at MFest. I know some good Absolut Vodka that tastes even better. Add some Red Bull to it and you won't even taste the difference. :)

Chris.

You know some good Vodka? Whats that then.. have you been drinking the Meth you supply with your kits ! Ha ha. :lmao:

[2001LSBM3]

Lets end this thread!

I will set-up a couple runs this week! I, HPF stg2 on 91 oct with meth disconnected(vert), and my good friend, Derek, with a VF stg2 on 91 oct(coupe).

I will make some vids and post them up!

Hows that sound?
Ravi


Sounds good :woot:

[2001LSBM3]

Drew we all know your car was the fastest VF car..

lets not take this out of hand guys! its starting to get intense we are all friends here!

i was trapping 125 consitantly that day with street tires and no meth! not the best trap but still pretty damn good..and yes my SMG was giving me problems that wasnt our best day as we both know it haha but atleast we showed all the Porsche guys what m3s can do!

Was that trap speed with race gas or pump? :pimpin:

[DLSJ5]

Was that trap speed with race gas or pump? :pimpin:

Race fuel and no meth on both cars. He hit 125.x I hit 124.8, but he had street tires I had DR's, he was spinning off the line, I hooked decently but did have some traction loss at times, but his car was still flying once it hooked. To give you an idea of what other cars were trapping, there were 3 GT700 996TT's and they were hitting 123-130. A Stage 2 protomotive tuned 997TT trapped 123. X50 Stage 2 996TT trapped 117, another modded X50, RWD, trapped 121, M6 vert 112.

[plaroud]

Race fuel and no meth on both cars. He hit 125.x I hit 124.8, but he had street tires I had DR's, he was spinning off the line, I hooked decently but did have some traction loss at times, but his car was still flying once it hooked. To give you an idea of what other cars were trapping, there were 3 GT700 996TT's and they were hitting 123-130. A Stage 2 protomotive tuned 997TT trapped 123. X50 Stage 2 996TT trapped 117, another modded X50, RWD, trapped 121, M6 vert 112.

Drew,

Not to take anything away from your driving skills, car or kit, the gears you had in there provide a HUGE advantage to any supercharged car. My friends S3 M5 runs completely different when he runs his stock diff or the Dinan diff. If I remember correctly he was trapping within a 7 mph difference because he is able to boost up quicker with the Dinan diff.

[DLSJ5]

Drew,

Not to take anything away from your driving skills, car or kit, the gears you had in there provide a HUGE advantage to any supercharged car. My friends S3 M5 runs completely different when he runs his stock diff or the Dinan diff. If I remember correctly he was trapping within a 7 mph difference because he is able to boost up quicker with the Dinan diff.

Not from what I've seen on the FI M3 Bro, my buddies VF Stage 2 same OTS setup as mine, with OEM gears and I were pretty heads up, I maybe pulled 1/2 car. With the 3.91's I beat a car with 4.10's. Unfortunately it seems they do not make a huge difference, but I believe they do help somewhat, 1/2 a car is something!

[yellowssm]

Evan,

Sean was pointing out on pump VF makes more power and it does according to each vendor's DJ plots, then he simply posted a graph showing what it makes on race gas, could it be misconstrued, maybe, should he have presented it differently, perhaps. No doubt on race fuel the HPF car is MUCH faster anyway you slice it, if you can put the power down, TC>SC.

One note in that vid you posted up, that HPF car had leaded race fuel in it, running on pump settings, some think that hurt the car, it appears it didn't. On the dyno, same day, it made more power over the curve than the VF car, not less as you say, obviously the results in the vid make sense then, regardless if you're gonna present something, run the same fuel.

Also Scott's VF car was not running cats, my buddy and I did comparo's, 60-130 runs etc. cat vs. catless, and his car was faster with cats, the VF kit calls for cats, so Scott's car was not running the right hardware, with cats my buddy and I were pretty much heads up OTS VF Stage 2 vs. OTS VF Stage 2.

There's been few other vids where the HPF car did better pump vs. pump versus the VF car, but another HPF car trapped 112MPH on pump fuel at the best track on the west coast. I can assure you a VF stage 2 on pump fuel will trap higher than that, so there's more than one result to throw around. Regardless two well running cars are pretty close pump vs. pump, if the HPF car could run 8psi without watermeth, it would win of course.

vf2 vs hpf2 at high elevation, the SC'r loses about 1-2 psi, the hpf car does not. Both cars on 100 octane, "Rebel" 100 which is not good at all, did some comparo's with Mspired, with that 100 pump and then 91, no difference, lol. Hpf car had a passanger and some 91 in the tank, regardless both cars are pretty close boost wise here do to the elevation, the runs are very close as well. On 91+ Meth, in some other runs the HPF car won by 3 CLth's from 60-125MPH I believe.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/th_Picture098.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/?action=view&current=Picture098.flv)

I just want to add that in this video my car wasnt running right. This is right after that shop in arizona (not HPF) installed my kit and there were some issues. I was also on 91 only with a passeger, we both weighed 500+ pounds combined and the vf car didnt have a passenger.

[DLSJ5]

I just want to add that in this video my car wasnt running right. This is right after that shop in arizona (not HPF) installed my kit and there were some issues. I was also on 91 only with a passeger, we both weighed 500+ pounds combined and the vf car didnt have a passenger.

It states in the OP that you were on 100/91 mix because your car was knocking on 91 only, so HPF said it must have been bad fuel, hence the Rebel 100 which I noted is not good either, already noted the passanger. Regardless similar results happened with the other HPF car, a little closer, about even I believe, no passanger in his car, so it makes sense, no vids though, on Meth of course he pulled good as I noted. I guess both HPF cars were not running right?

I was wrong there is a vid against the other HPF car, looks about even to me.

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc107/yellowssm/videos/?action=view&current=Picture097.flv

[Ervin87]

Racing these cars on pump fuel is silly. HPF has a file for pump gas, but they can only extract so much with such grade fuel. The real power of the HPF kit comes with higher octane.
Even if the races are fairly close on pump, with a higher fuel the end result is very different. Compare the best with the best.

[DLSJ5]

Racing these cars on pump fuel is silly. HPF has a file for pump gas, but they can only extract so much with such grade fuel. The real power of the HPF kit comes with higher octane.
Even if the races are fairly close on pump, with a higher fuel the end result is very different. Compare the best with the best.

Agreed.

[mtran850]

Racing these cars on pump fuel is silly. HPF has a file for pump gas, but they can only extract so much with such grade fuel. The real power of the HPF kit comes with higher octane.
Even if the races are fairly close on pump, with a higher fuel the end result is very different. Compare the best with the best.
+1, compare the full power of VF car vs the full power of HPF car, then see the end result. If VF can produce a supercharger kit to take down a HPF car in their Max Power Setting (Stage 3 for now) then start :blah:, or else just admire of what just smoke you. :blah: is for KID TOY (honda civic)
All I want to do is to be able to smokes car like Ford GT TT, C5 Z06 TT, Fox Body Mustage TT, etc. That is what I got to go against in my neck of the wood and I am sure that VF Supercharger as of today status will not even stand a chance with these BIG BOYS. That is how my represent our own breed. KING OF THE ROAD in my small town.:str8pimpi

[ObsessedM3]

This thread is ridiculous--It needs to be shut down--Bunch of over egoed, big headed people. Man people need to grow the fuc* up.

[HPFMTRE]

It states in the OP that you were on 100/91 mix because your car was knocking on 91 only, so HPF said it must have been bad fuel, hence the Rebel 100 which I noted is not good either, already noted the passanger. Regardless similar results happened with the other HPF car, a little closer, about even I believe, no passanger in his car, so it makes sense, no vids though, on Meth of course he pulled good as I noted. I guess both HPF cars were not running right?

I was wrong there is a vid against the other HPF car, looks about even to me.



drew..that car was running a mix not straight pump gas and i pulled him still except for 1 or 2 of the runs we were aorund even i know the guy and we talked at Mfest for a while before me and ray and him all went out with a couple cars to do some runs when i switched to meth it was no match.

[DLSJ5]

drew..that car was running a mix not straight pump gas and i pulled him still except for 1 or 2 of the runs we were aorund even i know the guy and we talked at Mfest for a while before me and ray and him all went out with a couple cars to do some runs when i switched to meth it was no match.

Where did I say otherwise? I said he was on Rebel 100 Bro, and I also mentioned you easily pulled him on Meth of course. I'm going by what he and the other VF owner told me, and on the vid as well, on pump close, meth not close. :)

[AMG ETR]

I said what I had to say on here :) Just wanted to point a few things out :) The only mistake in my post was I didn't realize the HPF car running on pump mode had race fuel in the tank so I do appologize there... My final note is that VF and HPF both have good kits just different, for someone looking for a stock power curve and 500-550HP, VF is your company, for the person looking for a crazy stupid tire burning 700H M3 then HPF is your company :)
Evan
PS- The SRT8 Challenger is still picking up his jaw from our little run today lol, he had no idea what happened :) Best part was that we passed a 997GT2 at over 100MPH and he wanted nothing to do with me after seeing how far ahead I was lol (yea yea I know where is the video, right Drew? ;))

[HPFMTRE]

Where did I say otherwise? I said he was on Rebel 100 Bro, and I also mentioned you easily pulled him on Meth of course. I'm going by what he and the other VF owner told me, and on the vid as well, on pump close, meth not close. :)

i think everyone is getting worked up...your car was a beast and everyone knows it this is a stupid thread. doesnt matter you and me are still good buds so lets just keep rippin it up and let all the other ppl fight lol.

[DLSJ5]

I said what I had to say on here :) Just wanted to point a few things out :) The only mistake in my post was I didn't realize the HPF car running on pump mode had race fuel in the tank so I do appologize there... My final note is that VF and HPF both have good kits just different, for someone looking for a stock power curve and 500-550HP, VF is your company, for the person looking for a crazy stupid tire burning 700H M3 then HPF is your company :)
Evan
PS- The SRT8 Challenger is still picking up his jaw from our little run today lol, he had no idea what happened :) (yea yea I know where is the video, right Drew? ;))

haha, true my friend, you are dead on. No need to apologize, there's ample evidence out there from other runs that backs up the vid you posted, it's a close run, but in the end I don't think that's a deal breaker, lol.

Yes, we need some vids!!! You're lagging bigtime on that! :D

[DLSJ5]

i think everyone is getting worked up...your car was a beast and everyone knows it this is a stupid thread. doesnt matter you and me are still good buds so lets just keep rippin it up and let all the other ppl fight lol.

Bro, there's no rift between us! I hope my posts didn't come across that way. Recollections and events tend to be misconstrued at times, I'm guilty as well, just want to get events right. All the guys that we did runs with really enjoyed hanging with you and were flat out impressed with your car, can't wait to see what your Stage 3 does. :4ngie:

[yellowssm]

When I raced john he was on 100 octane. John said he always runs 100 or higher. I was on 91 only not a mix. I didn't run 100 until after mfest to see if it would stop the knocking

[HPFMTRE]

When I raced john he was on 100 octane. John said he always runs 100 or higher. I was on 91 only not a mix. I didn't run 100 until after mfest to see if it would stop the knocking

this thread /

[DLSJ5]

When I raced john he was on 100 octane. John said he always runs 100 or higher. I was on 91 only not a mix. I didn't run 100 until after mfest to see if it would stop the knocking

Again I never stated that John was on anything but Rebel 100. I read your own words, posted below, Brotha, that's the thread where I got the vid of you and John, just quoting you, so I got the facts straight. In the thread you made no mention of your car not running right during the runs, so if it was I had no idea until now, but you did say it was knocking before the 100/91 mix, no worries it was awhile ago, you may have forgotten, all good Bro. Just want you to know I posted what you said.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=226928&highlight=HPF+Mexico

Went to mexico over the weekend and took took some vids. Sorry the quality sucks since its from a point and shoot camera and my video guy is a complete noob.

4 cars. Im sure I missing alot of mods.

dark grey m3-hpf stage 2, no passenger, supersprint exhaust, 91 octane (used meth one vid)
silver m3-vf stage 2, 100 octane, no passenger, ebay headers (i think)
white m3-vf stage 1+, 91 octane, smaller pulley, Dinan high flow throttle bodies, 1 passenger, 3.91 gears, stock exhaust.
camera car, blue m3, 91/100 octane mix, gruppe m exhaust, 1 passenger, full tank of gas, no meth

Nice finally meeting you too Drew. My car was on a 91/100 mix because I was getting some knock. I think I had bad gas. I put some 91 in today and no knock so far....

[ROM3N]

VF offers very competitive kits that have plenty of room to grow.
Our kits are the most reliable and do not require water/meth or internals to make BIG power!

For $12K you can see 467whp with VF

or

For $18K+ you can see 443hp the other guys.


Race gas VF stage 2
http://www.vf-engineering.com/images/kit/bmw/e46_m3/dyno_stg2_109.gif


Sean I guess "the other guys" did not include the ESS VT440 series stage 3 for $11k :shhh: I hope your stage 3 makes alot more power on pump when you release it and cost the same as your stage 2.

This is on 93US pump fuel not race

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u233/rom3n/VT440134PSI.jpg

[S54PWR]

WOW thats quite impressive, I saw the ESS 12.6psi thread and saw it will run about 12,400 for everything according to what was said, I guess you guys lowered the package price. :) Is that with the drop in pistons to lower CR to 10:1? Highest supercharged numbers I saw none the less!:thumbup:

[imapimp]

Romen, why are lines of dyno graph not smooth at all between 1200 to 3000 RPM? Do you have the AFR measurement on this dyno? I can probably look it up but whats the difference in #s between a SAE and DIN Corrected dyno run?

[mikem7709]

ROM3N, I should have a Dyno Dynamics graph for that kit in a couple of weeks. :pimpin: