My impressions of HPF stage 2.5 with SBBC and TC

[gasser]

Well, got the car back Monday and one word says it all...."WOW". Let me say one thing, DON'T FORGET TO TURN OFF THE DSC!!! When I first drove away from the truck, I was actually not impressed by the way the car didn't have any power. Well, I looked at the dash and noticed the DSC light was flashing at me. DOOH!!! I turned it off and let the TC that JP setup take control, much better. A couple of pulls later, I stopped by and picked up Ray (yellowssm) and took him for a spin. I turned the key to put it in race gas mode and turned the meth on. The car just screamed to life, killing the tires without hesitation even with the TC turned onto "sport" mode. I think I scared him a bit......hahaha. The car just hazed the tires through 2nd and 3rd gear while still pulling very hard due to the TC working its magic. Hell, I didn't even have full boost yet (didn't get to 96mph). So, last night I finally got a chance to open it up. I did a "RaceMX-M3" style run (no V-box) and finally got full boost. Even with the SBBC and TC in "sport", the car hazed the tires until the middle of 4th gear. IT JUST PULLS HARDER AND HARDER. The SBBC in combination with the TC really puts you on the limit of traction allowing you to accelerate very smoothly and quickly. I turned the TC off and got very, very unstable on another 3rd-4th pull. It's an easy way to soil your shorts at the end of 3rd gear, start of 4th gear.

So, here is a break down of the SBBC (speed based boost control) and TC system. The 5 settings on the TC from rain to street, sport, race and off allow a great way of assessing your traction. "Rain" will allow zero slip and "off" allows full monty passes. The AEM uses the "slew" rate of acceleration to determine wheel spin. If it senses spin, it cuts back the timing. If you are still spinning too much, it cuts the ignition (just like a rev limiter) to get your tire spin back under control. The combo of SBBC and TC really allow the car to accelerate at the very limit of your available traction. Crappy tires, run it in street. Better tires, sport mode. Get the idea? The SBBC ramps up the boost in 1st - 3rd gears. I usually see @ 6lbs in 1st, 11lbs in 2nd and 13lbs in 3rd. These are all do to wheel spin with the TC on and still accelerating at the limit of traction. 4th gear is full boost at 96mph, giving me 15lbs in low boost and 21-22lbs in high boost. This ramp-up is pretty good, I may have JP adjust/tweak this if I find the need with a good set of drag radials. So, for all those people out there thinking that these cars make too much power to be a daily driver, this setup just plain works. I was able to absolutely kill a Ferrari F430 Spyder today. The owner was just laughing and smiling when we slowed down. He couldn't believe my POS M3 killed him so bad. "Priceless".

I have been having way too much fun and Ray and I are gonna do some comparison runs this weekend for a stage 2 vs stage 2.5 on pump and pump + meth. I think it's gonna be a good time.

Brian

[cpa323i]

Brian congrats on getting the car back! I would love to check it out some time. I live in Henderson.

[HPFMTRE]

Well, got the car back Monday and one word says it all...."WOW". Let me say one thing, DON'T FORGET TO TURN OFF THE DSC!!! When I first drove away from the truck, I was actually not impressed by the way the car didn't have any power. Well, I looked at the dash and noticed the DSC light was flashing at me. DOOH!!! I turned it off and let the TC that JP setup take control, much better. A couple of pulls later, I stopped by and picked up Ray (yellowssm) and took him for a spin. I turned the key to put it in race gas mode and turned the meth on. The car just screamed to life, killing the tires without hesitation even with the TC turned onto "sport" mode. I think I scared him a bit......hahaha. The car just hazed the tires through 2nd and 3rd gear while still pulling very hard due to the TC working its magic. Hell, I didn't even have full boost yet (didn't get to 96mph). So, last night I finally got a chance to open it up. I did a "RaceMX-M3" style run (no V-box) and finally got full boost. Even with the SBBC and TC in "sport", the car hazed the tires until the middle of 4th gear. IT JUST PULLS HARDER AND HARDER. The SBBC in combination with the TC really puts you on the limit of traction allowing you to accelerate very smoothly and quickly. I turned the TC off and got very, very unstable on another 3rd-4th pull. It's an easy way to soil your shorts at the end of 3rd gear, start of 4th gear.

So, here is a break down of the SBBC (speed based boost control) and TC system. The 5 settings on the TC from rain to street, sport, race and off allow a great way of assessing your traction. "Rain" will allow zero slip and "off" allows full monty passes. The AEM uses the "slew" rate of acceleration to determine wheel spin. If it senses spin, it cuts back the timing. If you are still spinning too much, it cuts the ignition (just like a rev limiter) to get your tire spin back under control. The combo of SBBC and TC really allow the car to accelerate at the very limit of your available traction. Crappy tires, run it in street. Better tires, sport mode. Get the idea? The SBBC ramps up the boost in 1st - 3rd gears. I usually see @ 6lbs in 1st, 11lbs in 2nd and 13lbs in 3rd. 4th gear is full boost at 96mph, giving me 15lbs in low boost and 21-22lbs in high boost. This ramp-up is pretty good, I may have JP adjust/tweak this if I find the need with a good set of drag radials. So, for all those people out there thinking that these cars make too much power to be a daily driver, this setup just plain works. I was able to absolutely kill a Ferrari F430 Spyder today. The owner was just laughing and smiling when we slowed down. He couldn't believe my POS M3 killed him so bad. "Priceless".

I have been having way too much fun and Ray and I are gonna do some comparison runs this weekend for a stage 2 vs stage 2.5 on pump and pump + meth. I think it's gonna be a good time.

Brian


glad to hear good comments about the SBBC...im also getting that installed...cant wait for the videos! make ray go 2.5!!!

[Ferm3]

:hi: op

How does it handle in the wet?

Also, when you hit the rev limiter does it kick you back down or continue to bounce off the high rev?

:)

[gasser]

Brian congrats on getting the car back! I would love to check it out some time. I live in Henderson.

I'll send you a PM when we finally have another get-together with the BMW boys here in town.

[gasser]

:hi: op

How does it handle in the wet?

Also, when you hit the rev limiter does it kick you back down or continue to bounce off the high rev?

:)

Ummmm, no rain here in Vegas. Can't answer that question.

The rev limiter is still the same, bounces just like normal. When the TC kicks in, acting like a rev limiter, it just cuts power, but keeps going/reving out. :woot:

[S54PWR]

Sounds awesome, must you have SBBC to have the HPF TC setup?

[gasser]

Sounds awesome, must you have SBBC to have the HPF TC setup?

Not 100% sure on that point, but Chris did tell me that they could turn it off. Did he mean SBBC or all of it??? I am sure he or JP will chime in.

[RACEMX-M3]

Brian,

Glad to finally see another 2.5 on the road. Thanks for the SBBC feedback.. I'm definitely going to try this on my car to see the difference. As it is flooring it in 1st, or 2nd is pointless.. 3rd I have to feather the throttle and 4th even breaks loose sometimes. If you have a vbox I'd love to see your 60-130 times. :)

[supersam]

nice killllll

[gasser]

Brian,

Glad to finally see another 2.5 on the road. Thanks for the SBBC feedback.. I'm definitely going to try this on my car to see the difference. As it is flooring it in 1st, or 2nd is pointless.. 3rd I have to feather the throttle and 4th even breaks loose sometimes. If you have a vbox I'd love to see your 60-130 times. :)

gonna give you a call in a few.

[S54PWR]

Not 100% sure on that point, but Chris did tell me that they could turn it off. Did he mean SBBC or all of it??? I am sure he or JP will chime in.

I remember you asked that since the TC can be turned off but you were wondering if you can just have the usual power rampup similar to Scotts if you can take off SBBC. I wonder how the car will be without SBBC but with the HPF TC, if that's possible. JP or Chris does need to chime in.

[HPF JP]

Must you have SBBC to have the HPF TC setup?
For optimal traction, yes. Because boost is proportional to tire slip, I am using the speed based boost control as one of the three sources for a feedback loop to aid in traction control. Minimizing TC activation enhances the smoothness of the vehicle accelerating.

I wonder how the car will be without SBBC
Do not assume SBBC is a passive boost control. When properly tuned, SBBC is an ideal boost control strategy. What I have done is lowered the boost target above the traction threshold by a tested offset throughout the vehicle speed range (Ask Scott Wheeler about 22psi in 2nd gear). Consequently, only race tires and perfect track conditions would benefit from the HPF TC Module being OFF and relying only on SBBC.

With that being said, the HPF SBBC alone is calibrated where the tires WILL spin at any given speed up to maximum boost pressure with any other tire/track combination.

when you hit the rev limiter does it kick you back down or continue to bounce off the high rev?
If the tires spin excessively, the HPF ECU safely cuts the ignition spark to specific cylinders of the engine. However, because this is not a 100% cut to all cylinders, the engine and vehicle speed will still be accelerating.

[S54PWR]

Thanks JP, so you can't have one without the other as they are both in need together for optimal performance and benefits. I know one big thing is to compare 60-130 with a non SBBC car such as Scott's vs. Brian's once Brian can get a VBOX. That alone should solidify that the HPF TC along with SBBC allows for the maximum amount of traction and power that can be put down (hopefully that results in a new 60-130mph record). Also, can SBBC be turned off like the HPF Traction Control?

[HPF JP]

can SBBC be turned off like the HPF Traction Control?

No. When ordering the optional HPF TC System, you receive the TC Module and an HPF EMS reflash which includes the vehicle speed based boost control strategy. With SBBC, boost pressure linearly increases from its lowest pressure, dictated by the wastegate spring, to its highest pressure by 3rd gear. SBBC is enabled when the HPF turbo kit is in its "high boost" mode only. Depending on the stage of the turbo kit, high boost may be triggered by the Race Gas Switch and/or Alcohol Injection. The low boost control setting is unchanged and remains the same with the new HPF EMS reflash.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh209/quick108/TCSwitch.jpg?t=1233251777

Specifically for Stage 2.5 Kits with the optional HPF TC System, SBBC is activated only when alcohol injection is used. Boost will then be at its minimum until 48mph and its maximum above 80mph.
NOTE: The TiAL wastegate uses a 1Bar spring so boost pressure will never be "controlled" less than 15psi.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh209/quick108/TractionControl_LRG.jpg?t=1233251826

[S54PWR]

Ahh ok, so the pump gas maps are unchanged for new HPF TC and reflash users but Gasser stated his was being modulated in pump gas form unless his was done for both maps as it seems. With that said JP, will the TC still be On doing its slew rate ignition retard n on NON-SBBC power/maps such as straight pump gas for all stages and the race gas (low boost) map for stage 2.5?

Breakdown for those who want to know:

Stage 1: Low Boost NO SBBC
High Boost Race SBBC

Stage 2: Pump NO SBBC
Pump+Meth SBBC
Race SBBC
Race+Meth SBBC


Stage 2.5: Pump No SBBC
Pump+Meth SBBC
Race (low boost unlike the rest of the stages race maps that run high boost) No SBBC
Race+Meth SBBC

Stage 3: Same as stage 2

BTW, please get us some videos Brian! :D

[HPF JP]

will the TC still be On doing its slew rate ignition retard n on NON-SBBC power/maps such as straight pump gas for all stages and the race gas (low boost) map for stage 2.5?

Good question. Unless physically turned OFF, the HPF TC Module (slew rate ignition retard/cut) is always active. This feature is independant of what map is currently being used.

[S54PWR]

Good question. Unless physically turned OFF, the HPF TC Module (slew rate ignition retard/cut) is always active. This feature is independant of what map is currently being used.


Ahh ok so no matter what you're running the HPF TC is always on, once you run high boost via pump+meth, race(except 2.5 since it's race gas map is low boost) and race+meth then SBBC is in, so you can have the HPF TC working without SBBC on straight pump and non alcohol maps that involve low boost. Thanks for the big clearup JP. :) Is Brian running SBBC on low boost per his request as well or no? It seems like he is on how he stated he got a rampup and it held at 15psi(low boost). He stated "I usually see @ 6lbs in 1st, 11lbs in 2nd and 13lbs in 3rd. 4th gear is full boost at 96mph, giving me 15lbs in low boost and 21-22lbs in high boost."

You guys need to finish the SBBC and HPF TC on Chris's car and go back against that GTR with better tires and just slaughter it. I remember Chris stated with the HPF TC and SBBC, they should be no way someone leaves the M3 at the line and jumps ahead including bikes. :D

[gasser]

Ahh ok so no matter what you're running the HPF TC is always on, once you run high boost via pump+meth, race(except 2.5 since it's race gas map is low boost) and race+meth then SBBC is in, so you can have the HPF TC working without SBBC on straight pump and non alcohol maps that involve low boost. Thanks for the big clearup JP. :) Is Brian running SBBC on low boost per his request as well or no? It seems like he is on how he stated he got a rampup and it held at 15psi(low boost). He stated "I usually see @ 6lbs in 1st, 11lbs in 2nd and 13lbs in 3rd. 4th gear is full boost at 96mph, giving me 15lbs in low boost and 21-22lbs in high boost."

You guys need to finish the SBBC and HPF TC on Chris's car and go back against that GTR with better tires and just slaughter it. I remember Chris stated with the HPF TC and SBBC, they should be no way someone leaves the M3 at the line and jumps ahead including bikes. :D

I am gonna have to look at the boost gauge better to see this working. I stated the above numbers off of just glancing at the boost gauge quickly while it is accelerating. I could very well be wrong here and I will have to change what I posted. I will probably have my wife just watch the gauge while it give it HEELLLL.. :shhh:

[pastE36prsntE46]

I am sure she will be comfortable leaning over you while you are flooring it LOL You should video tape it..............

[S54PWR]

I am gonna have to look at the boost gauge better to see this working. I stated the above numbers off of just glancing at the boost gauge quickly while it is accelerating. I could very well be wrong here and I will have to change what I posted. I will probably have my wife just watch the gauge while it give it HEELLLL.. :shhh:


Easier said than done as I'm sure she'll be holding on for dear life rather that watch the gauge. ;) I also noticed that the thread Chris made included using SBBC with HPF TC on all four power maps when your car was dynoed. I guess the non methanol maps having SBBC are for testing purposes as JP stated SBBC is for high boost maps only which is pump+meth and race+meth for the stage 2.5 cars. The other stages see SBBC on the pump+meth, race, and race gas maps. Now things are a bit more confusing since Chris posted your dyno with SBBC on all power levels..lol

I feel like I'm becoming an HPF specialist concerning their kits by asking these questions and discussing with the company. lol It's all good though, I do want to pick up an E46 M3 and put an HPF kit on it. Its the reason why I ask these questions and I always appreciate the great responses. :D

[gasser]

I am sure she will be comfortable leaning over you while you are flooring it LOL You should video tape it..............

hahaha, she did have problems leaning over me shifting while she was reading the boost gauge. :rofl:

Anyway, after reading what JP had to say about my SBBC setup, I have some different boost numbers to report. On low boost, aka pump or race, the car does indeed "try" to target 15lbs of boost. I say try because either the car is spinning with the TC turned off or the TC is working its magic and keeping the car from spinning. In just plain pump mode, the car spins pretty bad and could only imagine how hard it is for Scott to control his car at 22lbs on pump/race + meth in the lower gears. The combo of the SBBC and TC really do wonders for the car allowing it to really leave hard and progressively put more power to the road as the traction allows. Props again. Can't thank them enough.

[S54PWR]

hahaha, she did have problems leaning over me shifting while she was reading the boost gauge. :rofl:

Anyway, after reading what JP had to say about my SBBC setup, I have some different boost numbers to report. On low boost, aka pump or race, the car does indeed "try" to target 15lbs of boost. I say try because either the car is spinning with the TC turned off or the TC is working its magic and keeping the car from spinning. In just plain pump mode, the car spins pretty bad and could only imagine how hard it is for Scott to control his car at 22lbs on pump/race + meth in the lower gears. The combo of the SBBC and TC really do wonders for the car allowing it to really leave hard and progressively put more power to the road as the traction allows. Props again. Can't thank them enough.

Well said! I'm glad things are cleared up concerning the great combo of SBBC and the HPF TC. Don't forget to get us some pulls, Vbox times and videos showing what the car does to things that think it's just a plain old m3. If you can't get anyone to run you try this:

S54PWR's Sales Pitch for HPF/Boosted M3s to the rest of the cars and their owners on the road:

Here is my "sales approach" to the unsuspecting person. Tell them the FMIC is an extra radiator since the M3 engine "overheats". If they ask about the blowoff tell them the intake system is screwed up and you need the extra valves to depress the extra air "wrongly" taken in by your car.


If they ask about the gauges mounted on the steering wheel the one of the left means the odds of your car throwing a rod(lower A/F ahem I mean number means greater chance of rod throwing as the odds are close) ;). The one one the right means the percentage of chance your engine will detonate. Higher boost..I mean number means greater detonation factor. :rofl:

Finally tell them not to buy a BMW M3 after you put 10 bus lengths on their Ferrari as despite your car's "troubles" they'll be heading back to the dealership for a full refund as everything must be wrong with their car since they lost to a plain old M3. :lmao: