PDA

View Full Version : HPF Stage 4 Head Lifts at 840rwhp During Long Pull with Standard ARP's


HPF Chris
04-22-2009, 08:06 PM
I took my M3 out this past weekend and did some pulls on the freeway with 3 Lambo and Ferrari owners in the car. I had a VBox in the car, and even with all of them and a 150 lbs stereo the car pulled 0.4G's at 130mph! They definitely seemed to enjoy the ride!! One of them was a driving instructor at Portland International Raceway and he said he's been in some extremely fast supercharged Vipers but he's never been in anything this fast. I'll post the VBox numbers and video when I have some free time.

Anyway... to the point of this thread. There is a limit as to what the standard ARP head studs can handle. Until now, we've upgraded all of our built motors (stages 2.5, 3 and 4) to the standard ARP head studs (tensile strengths between 180,000 and 210,000psi). In all cases thus far we've been able to torque the head studs down enough so that the head doesn't lift. The way you know you've exceeded the studs capability is either #1) you torque the stud and it never achieves the desired torque setting because it stretches or #2) you do a high boost pull and you see or smell coolant coming out of the overflow tank. This happens because cylinder pressures escape when the head lifts and go into the coolant jackets superheating the coolant.

Now that we've finalized the stage 4 tune and the power is a flatlined 840rwhp from 6,000rpm to 8,000rpm (see below) there is considerably more stress on those bolts especially when doing long pulls through several gears. During some stress testing we managed to lift the head for a brief second. This didn't do any damage to the engine but we knew it because a small amount of coolant came out of the overflow bottle.

The good news is ARP came out with an extremely strong head stud called the L19. These are made with a very high strength steel compared to the standard 8740 ARP's and the ARP2000's. These L19 studs are capable of delivering clamp loads in the 230,000-260,000 psi range. The bad news is they're VERY expensive and are special order with long lead times. However, we ordered 15 sets several months ago for the S54 engine and they just came in today. We are now replacing the head studs on both the HPF M3 and on My Trans stage 4 M3. Our stage 2.5 and 3 motors don't require these studs because the cylinder pressures aren't high enough to stretch the standard ARPs. Even so, from now on, ALL HPF built motors will use the L19's because we have them in stock.

Here's the Stage 4 dyno graph to show why there's a need for the studs.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/hpfm3/HPFM3_843.gif

Here are the new ARP studs. For anyone that has seen ARP head studs before, these will definitely look a bit different. :)

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/arp/ARPL19.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/arp/ARPL19_2.jpg

bimmerbum46
04-22-2009, 08:08 PM
:bow: to the king of Horsepower

gasser
04-22-2009, 08:29 PM
Sweet. Never thought I'd see ARP's have an issue, but at 30psi anything is possible. :loco:

dfjaws
04-22-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm completely blown away by HPF's attention to detail. It's impeccable.

pei330ci
04-22-2009, 08:41 PM
Great info!

TaZaM3
04-22-2009, 11:28 PM
The head definitely wants to lift at 840rwhp, I didnt have this problem at first but gradually came about after abusing her hard for a long time.

tinkwithanr
04-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Yeah, I had the same problem with the 323 recently.... :eeps:



Seriously you guys are insane. If your ever looking for mech engineer for a summer intership send me a pm.

bluejeansonfire
04-23-2009, 12:28 AM
For having no direct affiliation with HPF other than a gauge pod purchase. I really like their style of development, and it's pushed by their expansion of their kit to make more power. Nick does this too with his 330, upgrading to develop the next stages. HPF uses super-high end parts, makes stupid power. And then occasionally, rarely... something goes wrong: the power exceeds the part, and they fix it. This would be like, what if BMW had really addressed the rear subframe issue. After, you know, the e36 platform, you think they'd improve the e46 platform, nope! Or after the first year or two of production, perhaps at the inception of mss54 and ms43, 2001, it may have been the right time do something about it the, but: NOPE! HPF, however, they see something failing to work and they address the issue asap. Like when they rebuilt everyone's engine. what a standup act! If I had an e46 M3 and deep pockets, I would already have this.

Dreksc
04-23-2009, 02:17 AM
Chris,
Any Vbox times, drag slips yet of your monster?

Great attention to detail is the only way to get where HPF has gotten itself in the FI world of BMW :bow:

Keep up the great work!

MSpired
04-23-2009, 02:48 AM
How much power can the OEM studs handle?

sy0296
04-23-2009, 04:19 AM
these going in my car chris?? i'm dying for some photos!!

Aktiv3
04-23-2009, 10:26 AM
Wow..if i could afford hpf i would use them and them only nice work chris

nashvillezhp
04-23-2009, 12:55 PM
I wanna know what kind of speeds we are talking about. 840rwhp with "long pulls through several gears". 150mph had to be reached.

Saintly
04-25-2009, 09:17 PM
How much power can the OEM studs handle?This problem sucks. Mine lifted at 570+ on my dyno. I have a built motor now with studs.:) so fingers crossed.

MSpired
04-26-2009, 12:44 AM
This problem sucks. Mine lifted at 570+ on my dyno. I have a built motor now with studs.:) so fingers crossed.

Damn, I thought they would be able to handle more than that.

What did you build with!?!!?!

Project Dc2
04-26-2009, 01:28 AM
How much power can the OEM studs handle?



Most factory style motors use head bolts that are built to be 1 time use only


arp's are reusable. However, it is ideal to purchase new studs for a piece of mind when having the head off.

L19's are extremely durable, we had a set of 1/2 on a supra and because they had such a high clamp load, they were able to pinch the head which made it somewhat difficult to remove.


However, if you're driving a high dollar high hp high baller machine like an HPF stage 4, its highly recommended to do L19's because there IS no other substitute other than going with larger L19's =)