Torque specs using ARP Studs

[ritos530i]

Hey all and it's been a while since i started a thread.
Anyway, I am looking for anyone with experience torquing the head down using ARP head studs. Just curious since our motors are all aluminum blocks/head if anyone has had problems when running high boost lifting the head and how did you keep it from lifting. I know most of you are probably not running more than 14psi and i am wondering if that's the max we could run.

Thanks for any information
Rito

[T330]

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=668616

[bluejeansonfire]

Hey all and it's been a while since i started a thread.
Anyway, I am looking for anyone with experience torquing the head down using ARP head studs. Just curious since our motors are all aluminum blocks/head if anyone has had problems when running high boost lifting the head and how did you keep it from lifting. I know most of you are probably not running more than 14psi and i am wondering if that's the max we could run.

Thanks for any information
Rito

Rito,

I can't answer your question, I'm sorry. But I have another for you. Before you put your ARP studs in, please compare it to the stock bolt. Do they both have as much thread? I know Abjorn@ess has experienced head lift with M50 spec studs, Mike Benvo also. I don't know if ARP makes a stud that is full-length for the aluminum block, if they do, please send me the part number immediately. Perhaps a picture would also be nice.
Good luck with your studs, did you helicoil your block or do anything of the sort or just planning to torque those studs into aluminum right quick?

[ritos530i]

Rito,

I can't answer your question, I'm sorry. But I have another for you. Before you put your ARP studs in, please compare it to the stock bolt. Do they both have as much thread? I know Abjorn@ess has experienced head lift with M50 spec studs, Mike Benvo also. I don't know if ARP makes a stud that is full-length for the aluminum block, if they do, please send me the part number immediately. Perhaps a picture would also be nice.
Good luck with your studs, did you helicoil your block or do anything of the sort or just planning to torque those studs into aluminum right quick?

I heard Chris from HPF talking about a L19 ARP stud that just came out and tried asking him the same question. Haven't got a answer back but that's what they are now using for their motors. My motor has been helicoil and completely built including the head with supertech valve job as well as ported and polished head.
If i get any information that is useful i will post that information. I might even call ARP myself and ask them personally. Maybe I can find out from HEMI what they are doing as they offer a performance motor (all alunimum) that cost an extra $2500 that has to take this into consideration.

I already have the Standard ARP head studs since the motor build but haven't tried the ARP 2000 ones yet so i don't know. From my understanding that's what HPF used (stand ARP studs) and head is still lifting which is why they inquired ARP what is best to use and they came out with a L19 Stud. The problem for me is that they motor they are working with only have an alunimum head but the block is iron. Not sure if that makes a difference.

[BimmerDude18]

I heard Chris from HPF talking about a L19 ARP stud that just came out and tried asking him the same question. Haven't got a answer back but that's what they are now using for their motors. My motor has been helicoil and completely built including the head with supertech valve job as well as ported and polished head.
If i get any information that is useful i will post that information. I might even call ARP myself and ask them personally. Maybe I can find out from HEMI what they are doing as they offer a performance motor (all alunimum) that cost an extra $2500 that has to take this into consideration.

I already have the Standard ARP head studs since the motor build but haven't tried the ARP 2000 ones yet so i don't know. From my understanding that's what HPF used (stand ARP studs) and head is still lifting which is why they inquired ARP what is best to use and they came out with a L19 Stud. The problem for me is that they motor they are working with only have an alunimum head but the block is iron. Not sure if that makes a difference.
It makes a huge difference, M54 head lift is usually caused by pulling threads on the studs/bolts you've got, it may be caused by stretching the fastener, but its rare, its too hard to get solid bite in the aluminum block. The S54 is iron, so you can torque the bolts harder and get bite, HPF actually STETCHED the standard ARP studs with the threads still holding in place.

The M54 is nowhere near that level of abuse to the head bolts yet.

[mikem7709]

I though the ARP ones weren`t stretch bolts and hence if they stretch, they don`t shrink back causing the head to lift unless its re-torqued ??

[ritos530i]

It makes a huge difference, M54 head lift is usually caused by pulling threads on the studs/bolts you've got, it may be caused by stretching the fastener, but its rare, its too hard to get solid bite in the aluminum block. The S54 is iron, so you can torque the bolts harder and get bite, HPF actually STETCHED the standard ARP studs with the threads still holding in place.

The M54 is nowhere near that level of abuse to the head bolts yet.
That's because you have no idea about my motor and what all I have done to it. I plan to abuse the hell out of it but only if the head can stay down. I am trying to run 18psi of turbo boost on the car now. 14psi is ok which i haven't even begin to spray it with nitrous again until i sort out the turbo limits. When i try more boost the head lifts. This is what happen to HPF motor as they are trying to sweeze more power from the motor but need the right clamping of the head to keep it down. That's the same problem i have but I believe the alunimum blocks have a limit or a solution as we are not the only ones running alunimum motor. So one knows the limit or solution i just have to find out who. The plan is to make 600+-rwhp and spray about 300 shot of nitrous on the motor. I will start out with something conservative like a 100 shot and work my way up to something like 300 shot of nitrous depending on what the motor can handle. I just hope I didn't waste my money on building this motor (M54B30) because it will limit me to x amount of power.



I though the ARP ones weren`t stretch bolts and hence if they stretch, they don`t shrink back causing the head to lift unless its re-torqued ??

Yes mine are the after market ARP head studs but HPF have even determine that even on a iron block they have their limits and moving with something stronger. I just need to get on the phone to call ARP and find out for myself.

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[BimmerDude18]

I though the ARP ones weren`t stretch bolts and hence if they stretch, they don`t shrink back causing the head to lift unless its re-torqued ??They may be a bolt that you do not torque to yield, but all metal (almost) has a modulus of yield that occurs at much lower strains than the modulus of rupture. Typical Head fasteners that are torqued to beyond their modulus of yield are held just beyond the amount of "stretch" that they will recover from (elastically), but head lift is the ADDITIONAL stretching of those bolts/studs.

Ritos...its possible you are failing the ARP fasteners, do not have them torqued high enough, are pulling the helicoils (or other system) out of the block, or any number of other things.

I assume since getting head lift you've replaced your headgasket?

I'd be curious to hear/see exactly what your current head fastening system is, what head gasket you are running, etc.

An option I've been talking over with a friend is "o-ringing" the block or head to keep the engine sealed up under minor head lift conditions, which although a somewhat compromised type of fix, could prevent you from pulling threads out of the block by over torquing studs.

[ritos530i]

Spoke with ARP techs today and tried to pull up my old order from the engine builder. Since the building has too many invoices because that's all they do is build motors the guy didn't have the time to do all the research. However, he explain to me that just because it's a 8790 ARP bolt they also go off of specific information that the builder measures when building the motor and what they are building for so it's no way to tell. He said its possible that either of two things is happening if head is lifting. The studs could have been tighten too tight or after the head cycle wasn't tighten again. Also that even just letting the motor sit over night and retorque the studs helps. I am not sure if the head was torque or not after sitting over night because i did not speak with the builder yet to see if this was standard practice. Either way I will remove valve cover to check stud and if they need tighten then that was my problem. I can also back them all out and torque them again. The problem for me, i never done this before so would feel much better if a guy who knows how it was done standing over my shoulder to confirm while i do all the work. Don't know anyone that will do that.