Superchargers running Methanol Beware - pictures

[HPF Chris]

After reading about Mathew having engine damage with his supercharged E46 M3 which was running methanol and seeing some of the home grown systems that people have built for injecting methanol into their E46 M3's, I thought I would share some of our experiences. This thread is about the usage of methanol with forced induction.

What is methanol and why do I run a mix?

Methanol has an motor octane rating of 113. Most cars run a 50/50 mix of methanol and water because it is the most simplest form requiring virtually no tuning, methanol line pressures aren't as important, and cylinder to cylinder distribution irregularities aren't always catastrophic. More advanced systems run 100% methanol but these require the use of sophisticated computers to pull fuel out from the primary source, to increase timing for immediate power increases, and the methanol injection must be designed such that even distribution of methanol to each cylinder is essential to prevent engine damage, precise methanol line pressures must be maintained, and safety devices must be used in case the methanol runs out or the line becomes blocked. The 100% methanol system will make significantly more power than a 50/50 mix but there must be systems in place to support it.

How does methanol get into my engine?

Methanol is a liquid. This liquid is pumped to a pressure of roughly 120-150psi by a pump and then it enters the engine by one or more foggers (which are generally open holes that causes the methanol to come out as a fine mist) or by a duty cycled solenoid (which is a computer controlled solenoid that allows precise measurement of the amount of methanol going into the engine) The fogger will inject the same amount of methanol whether you're at low boost and low rpm or high boost and high rpm. The duty cycled solenoid will allow you to inject a precise amount of methanol and tailor the methanol flow rate to the powerband of the engine.

What happens when methanol gets in one cylinder but not in the next?

When people look at the output of the S54 engine, they're seeing the sum of the power produced by all 6 cylinders. We generally assume that the output of all 6 cylinders is the same, but this is rarely the case. There are several things that can vary power output in a cylinder but the one I'm going to talk about is methanol distribution. Methanol is a fuel and will increase the octane rating of a cylinder, water when used will also increase the octane rating of the air fuel charge in the cylinder. Both of these will decrease the intake air temps of the incoming air charge when injected upstream of the throttle bodies. Most engine management systems and factory computers will assume to a small variance that the cylinders are all getting the same intake air temps, the same fuel octane rating, and the same amount of fuel injected into each cylinder. When the methanol system is designed such that the distribution to all of the cylinders is uneven, then some cylinders will run leaner than others, some cylinders will have less octane than others, and some cylinders will run much hotter than others. All three of these things can lead to engine damage.

How do I get even distribution to the cylinder, and how to I keep methanol from pooling?

Methanol will fall out of suspension when forced to take a turn. This loss of suspension will keep methanol from going into the engine right when you need it, and will cause the methanol to go into the engine when you don't need it (after the pull is done). This happens because the methanol will pool forming puddles inside the intake manifold. Methanol will also fall out of suspension when it has objects in the way such as a liquid to air intercooler. Even distribution can be achieved by precisely injecting methanol in front of each cylinder or by injecting it far enough upstream (without obstacles) that allows it to disperse evenly to each cylinder.

Here are some pictures of a car we just pulled the supercharger kit off of which shows the uneven distribution of methanol. The reason we're able to see this is the red die in the Snow Performance boost juice methanol mix.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/lawrencem3/windshieldwashertank.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/lawrencem3/VFIntake.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/lawrencem3/intakeports1.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/lawrencem3/intakeports4.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/lawrencem3/intakeports3.jpg

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/miscellaneous/m3turbokit/lawrencem3/intakeports2.jpg

[2005M3Driver]

:facepalm:
Sorry to hear about the engine problem.

But great write up....

[babydevilj]

So if I was to use say a custom setup with 1 fogger in front of each cylinder and use a 50/50 mix, how far behind the cyclinder entry points should the nozzles go? What shouldbe the spray lbs per nozzle? And which off the shelf kit would you recommend?

[MSpired]

This is the reason I did this:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/mspiredm3/img1224869555103.jpg

[MSpired]

So if I was to use say a custom setup with 1 fogger in front of each cylinder and use a 50/50 mix, how far behind the cyclinder entry points should the nozzles go? What shouldbe the spray lbs per nozzle? And which off the shelf kit would you recommend?

If you place a nozzle in front of each cylinder, there is no need for a certain amount of space from the throttle bodies since each cylinder is going to be getting the same amount. Placing the nozzle a certain distance away from the throttle bodies is only needed when you need to give the meth enough room to disperse evenly.

[malina]

Some useful information here. Thanks for sharing.

[Ispeed]

IS this kit used to cool the intake charge or to increase the octane value?
or both.

Why dont you run one nozzle closer to the main manifold intake, possible cooling the charged air coming in?

[gixxer]

IPlacing the nozzle a certain distance away from the throttle bodies is only needed when you need to give the meth enough room to disperse evenly.

Mike, about your above comment, in the case of AA setup, do you recall where the water/alcohol nozzle was on that pipe leading to the intake manifold?

Replacing the water/alcohol nozzle with water/methonol nozzle on that same pipe, would that consider as placing the nozzle a enough distance away from the throttle boddies, to give the meth enough room to disperse evenly?

Kind of like how one would also have, if spraying, the n2o nozzle further below on that same pipe, to give the nitrous enough room to disperse evenly.

Thanks.

[gixxer]

Chris, this is a good write up. Thanks.

[///JTM3]

Mike, about your above comment, in the case of AA setup, do you recall where the water/alcohol nozzle was on that pipe leading to the intake manifold?

Replacing the water/alcohol nozzle with water/methonol nozzle on that same pipe, would that consider as placing the nozzle a enough distance away from the throttle boddies, to give the meth enough room to disperse evenly?

Kind of like how one would also have, if spraying, the n2o nozzle further below on that same pipe, to give the nitrous enough room to disperse evenly.

Thanks.

Ya for the AA setup, the nozzle on the charge pipe is fine.. perfect location

[mikem7709]

Great write up Chris and it makes perfect sense. I`d been thinking about playing with Meth but so far my installers have talked me out of it each time I`ve mentioned it. Maybe I`ll buy a drum of proper race fuel and try that, don`t know if the ECU will adapt enough to fully utilise the higher Octane `tho.

[MSpired]

Mike, about your above comment, in the case of AA setup, do you recall where the water/alcohol nozzle was on that pipe leading to the intake manifold?

Replacing the water/alcohol nozzle with water/methonol nozzle on that same pipe, would that consider as placing the nozzle a enough distance away from the throttle boddies, to give the meth enough room to disperse evenly?

Kind of like how one would also have, if spraying, the n2o nozzle further below on that same pipe, to give the nitrous enough room to disperse evenly.

Thanks.

I would move it further down from where AA has theirs.

[docwyte]

That looks like AirFrcd (sp?) car/kit. I've been debating adding water/meth to my car, but I want to wait until an accepted/approved install comes out to avoid problems. I know it's not your purvey Chris as you do turbo's, but any insight you have on where to place the nozzles would be appreciated...

[Matt Q]

Hmm... I'm just going to be upgrading the existing position on the AA kit from water/alcohol to pure meth so I'm assuming (hopefully) that this position will give me even dispersion?

After my experiences over the last few days and the state of my engine I am, understandably, cautious with any further additions... carefully adding power from here on in

[MSpired]

That looks like AirFrcd (sp?) car/kit. I've been debating adding water/meth to my car, but I want to wait until an accepted/approved install comes out to avoid problems. I know it's not your purvey Chris as you do turbo's, but any insight you have on where to place the nozzles would be appreciated...

Doc, I'm probably going to be upgrading my kit and doing a direct port setup. I'll let you know how that goes, obviously that would be the best and most bulletproof solution...

[docwyte]

I'd be very interested to know how that turns out for you. Are you running stage 3 now?

[MSpired]

I'd be very interested to know how that turns out for you. Are you running stage 3 now?

Ya, just working out a few bugs

[jtrejo]

direct port seems like the only way to go!! carmens (wizeguy) set up is perfect and so sick!!

[DLSJ5]

:facepalm:
Sorry to hear about the engine problem.

But great write up....

There was no engine problem with Lawrence's car pictured above, it was another car and it wasn't running this setup, but reading Chris' post one might concur that it did.

FYI, there is no need to beware, lol, Chris' post is a contradiction, in one paragraph it says unequal distribution is common and not dangerous in the other it says it is. Also this snow setup is progressive, and it runs a 50/50mixture, it's not pure Meth. Unlike what Chris states, it does not run the same amount of WM at all times, the WM comes on at a set boost level and then increases as the boost does.

This setup is completely safe and effective if done right, it does not influence AFR's as much, but does induce a greater cooling effect on the intake charge, my AFR did not change much at all when running this Water/Meth setup.

I ran this exact setup for 15K on my M3, no problems, I came up wtih the placement based on testing the car for many many hard miles. When I was ready for more power and the head was removed to go Stage 3 with a head spacer, it had even distribution in all cylinders when they removed the intake and other components at that time, in fact the top of the pistons looked fantastic.

Those pictures above are NOT an indication of what I saw with my car, it looks as if all but two TB's have been whiped clean inside the walls of the TB's, lol, but if you look at the outside of the TB's and on the face of them you can see residue on the one's that look clean inside. :facepalm:

Also Chris does not have the 1st nozzle correct in the photo, that is a bung for a vacum line, not the nozzle, the nozzle is closer to cylinder 1 and 2, not 3, that would negate the cylinder 3 TB having more residue according to him. With my setup, same nozzle position, cylinder 1 had a TAD more residue.

Regardless, I took the manifold off several times to make sure there was even distribution with my setup and there was, all six TB's had similiar amounts of the red boost juice residue inside, on the face and even on the outer rim. To insinuate that with our 6 ITB type manifold, that perfect distribution is possible is misleading, it will vary with this type of manifold regardless, even the HPF setup uses one nozzle placement that is similiar to this, also there was no pooling in my setup.

According to a popular company that specializes in Water/Meth injection what you should beware of is running methanol only, especially storing it in your hot engine bay, as it is easy to ignite.

From Snow Performance on why injecting pure methanol can be dangerous:

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline

Can I use pure methanol?
While all components of Snow Performance systems are designed to be able to handle pure methanol, it is not recommended for a number of reasons.

***8226; Safety: Pure methanol is easy to ignite and burns with an almost invisible flame.
***8226; Performance: Water absorbs twice as much heat as methanol in the intake and inside the combustion chamber. Water cannot be flash-ignited, so has what is almost an infinite octane number. In the government studies for WWII piston-powered aircraft, 50/50 water-methanol was found to be the best fluid to use for auxiliary fluid injection.
***8226; Tuning and Engine reliability: Injecting 50/50 water-methanol will prevent over-injection. If too much is injected, it will quench the flame front and the engine will bog and lose power. If too much straight methanol is injected, this will not happen, as methanol is very forgiving of rich mixtures. This could instead lead to explosive backfires, cylinder wash, etc. which will not happen when 50% or more water is in the mixture.


...

[Jeffxxx]

Perfect thing to read before I get my car back....

[SPDu4ea]

In the government studies for WWII piston-powered aircraft, 50/50 water-methanol was found to be the best fluid to use for auxiliary fluid injection.

Lol @ Snow Performance citing a 50+ year old report that dealt with carbureted (and mechanical fuel injected) engines operating at altitudes most cars will never see

[DLSJ5]

Lol @ Snow Performance citing a 50+ year old report that dealt with carbureted (and mechanical fuel injected) engines operating at altitudes most cars will never see

THat is kinda funny, what about the other stuff? Paranoia?

[SPDu4ea]

what about the other stuff? Paranoia?

To be honest, I'm not sure about the other stuff. The first picture I could see where it looks like one throttle body has been wiped clean, but the last ones had enough old-ish deposits that I don't think its likely.


I do know uneven distribution can be fatal to an engine if your tune relies on water/meth to prevent detonation. If you're using it simply as added safety on an already safe tune, then its obviously not as critical.


As for 50/50 vs straight meth -- I believe straight meth is capable of more power when tuned accordingly. For people piecing together kits (rather than actually engineering them or buying kits engineered for their specific application -- tune included), I'd agree that 50/50 is probably going to be better. 50/50 will also be easier on pumps/tanks/lines...

[DLSJ5]

To be honest, I'm not sure about the other stuff. The first picture I could see where it looks like one throttle body has been wiped clean, but the last ones had enough old-ish deposits that I don't think its likely...

Agreed, but even the one's that don't seem to have much inside or none at all, lol, do have them on the thin face at the front and outside portions of the TB's and on the inside butterflies, which isn't consistant, they look to pristine compared to the face and outside portion of the TB's, also it is a MAJOR contradiction to what I saw with my setup, this is the only reason I stated what I did.

I do know uneven distribution can be fatal to an engine if your tune relies on water/meth to prevent detonation. If you're using it simply as added safety on an already safe tune, then its obviously not as critical....

Agreed, I've seen it happen on friends cars who run their race fuel tune on pump fuel + Meth, this does not apply to this setup, as the AFR did not change much if at all, this setup is more to cool the intake charge for safety when adding a few pounds of boost, no timing is added in the tune itself.

As for 50/50 vs straight meth -- I believe straight meth is capable of more power when tuned accordingly. For people piecing together kits (rather than actually engineering them or buying kits engineered for their specific application -- tune included), I'd agree that 50/50 is probably going to be better. 50/50 will also be easier on pumps/tanks/lines...

Agreed.

[ispeedm3]

i love post like these!



one can learn so much

nice write up Chris

[DLSJ5]

direct port seems like the only way to go!! carmens (wizeguy) set up is perfect and so sick!!

Not needed with these setups Bro, HPF uses a one nozzle setup as well.

[6ick6ix6peed]

This is the reason I installed my level 1 kit, Im not comfortable with water inside a motor. And meth could be replaced by racegas or leaded(lead increases octane) gas no? too many variables, but I'm learning LOL.

lots o good posts Chris, Drew, and everyone.

[2005M3Driver]

:hmm:

This could go on forever. I am really confused. I am not to familiar with Methanol at all. And this conversation is helping at all...

[DLSJ5]

:hmm:

This could go on forever. I am really confused. I am not to familiar with Methanol at all. And this conversation is helping at all...

You could run this setup on your car and it would help cool the intake charge, but if you added a lot more boost and timing on pump fuel, then you would need to be absolutely sure that equal distribution was happening. I saw equal distribution on my car, that's all I can go by, but it is possible that this wasn't happening on Lawrence's car.

[Saintly]

Interesting read. This is why I had my manifold flowed years ago for better distribution. I think we need to remember that the companies that make the s/c kits originally did not make the kits with 100%meth in mind to be used as a fuel source rather w/i to help with cooler charge and prevent possible detonation.

[DLSJ5]

This is the reason I installed my level 1 kit, Im not comfortable with water inside a motor. And meth could be replaced by racegas or leaded(lead increases octane) gas no? too many variables, but I'm learning LOL.

lots o good posts Chris, Drew, and everyone.

Thanks Bro, I can only go by my experiences and what I've seen with my car, which was the 1st to run this setup, and I was very successful with it.

[6ick6ix6peed]

Thanks Bro, I can only go by my experiences and what I've seen with my car, which was the 1st to run this setup, and I was very successful with it.

No doubt, I wish I had just some of your knowledge bro.:bow: Thank you.

[bluejeansonfire]

To be honest, I'm not sure about the other stuff. The first picture I could see where it looks like one throttle body has been wiped clean, but the last ones had enough old-ish deposits that I don't think its likely.


I do know uneven distribution can be fatal to an engine if your tune relies on water/meth to prevent detonation. If you're using it simply as added safety on an already safe tune, then its obviously not as critical.


As for 50/50 vs straight meth -- I believe straight meth is capable of more power when tuned accordingly. For people piecing together kits (rather than actually engineering them or buying kits engineered for their specific application -- tune included), I'd agree that 50/50 is probably going to be better. 50/50 will also be easier on pumps/tanks/lines...

Lol @ Snow Performance citing a 50+ year old report that dealt with carbureted (and mechanical fuel injected) engines operating at altitudes most cars will never see


It makes perfect sense to say that 50/50 is the best thing to mix in. Now, I have a preference for the benefits of straight meth. But 50/50 is most ideal for ultimate cooling. But it does not provide the octane boost and extra fuel source that straight meth is. Straight meth will cause a notable drop in afrs. I don't know by how much 50/50 cools, everything i've read suggests it has a greater effect on IATs, but i achieved a full 35 degree drop in 93 degree weather from running on a dyno with straight meth.

[Matt Q]

This is turning out to be one of those threads that reminds me why I love and live on this site

Thanks all.. invaluable tuning advice...

I'll be updating the other thread re the damage to my engine as I go and fix everything and will give pics and info on the flowing of the intake, new maps, new meth system etc etc as well as maps and dyno read outs... we MUST see all the info so we can decide what is the safe route to go