Curious which CENTRI S/C is the best? ROTREX or VORTECH..

[dennymedeiros]

Always wondered which Centri S/C is best? ROTREX OR VORTECH..

Things like... Maintenance? Power(more hp more torque at same PSi)? reliability? cost to replace? street drivalibilty fun factor? Heat? startup issues?
noise levels?

[bluejeansonfire]

vortex blowers are highly rebuildable. I can't say the same for the rotrex on stateside maintenance. But I can speak from my friends' experiences with rotrex and it seems to be highly reliable. Also I can speak for the very high efficiency of rotrex blowers when compared with the more traditional vortex, and the great performance AA kits produce. Personally, I went turbo for maximum efficiency, power, upgradeability, rebuildability, and extensive array of market offerings.

[MachRc]

ASA:shhh:

[maxnathan]

^^^^^^^^^^ Word:pimpin:

[dennymedeiros]

vortex blowers are highly rebuildable. I can't say the same for the rotrex on stateside maintenance. But I can speak from my friends' experiences with rotrex and it seems to be highly reliable. Also I can speak for the very high efficiency of rotrex blowers when compared with the more traditional vortex, and the great performance AA kits produce. Personally, I went turbo for maximum efficiency, power, upgradeability, rebuildability, and extensive array of market offerings.

Rebuildability!! rebuild a turbo 600-800$ ...how much would a ROTREX or VORTECH be? I'm assuming more $$$. How about the WHIPPLE TS? ASA centri? I forgot about them

Going turbo/intercooled with NICKG kit is the most powerfull of options a long ESS TS2 kit for the 330i right now but also the more expensive :( I only have 2000$ saved up canadian money(really sucks here 0.86$u.s value) so far in my F/I account not much so far but when I get to 4-5000$ I may just wait and save more and go with NICKG kit and be done with it as I know there is nothing like dialing in the PSI you want and the neck snapping G's of a turbo setup to but a BIG :) on anybody's face plus future upgradability is already there.


I have never ridin in a centri boosted car have no idea what it feels like so I'm hesitant of jumping in the bandwagon even if its the cheapest of F/I solutions... so I'm thinking of ALL the pro's and Con's for all systems while I save my money that way I wont waste time when I do have all the money saved up cash in hand to make the proper decision 1 time so I can after that concentrate on engine rebuilt once the F/i sucks the life out of the M54b30.

NICKG should do a group buy on his kit especially now that the ZHP kit is out too for more exposure I think his kit is underated a LOT. I like the fact that HPF has competition with the turbo world its good for the community too.

[bluejeansonfire]

Rebuildability!! rebuild a turbo 600-800$ ...how much would a ROTREX or VORTECH be? I'm assuming more $$$. How about the WHIPPLE TS? ASA centri? I forgot about them

Going turbo/intercooled with NICKG kit is the most powerfull of options a long ESS TS2 kit for the 330i right now but also the more expensive :( I only have 2000$ saved up canadian money(really sucks here 0.86$u.s value) so far in my F/I account not much so far but when I get to 4-5000$ I may just wait and save more and go with NICKG kit and be done with it as I know there is nothing like dialing in the PSI you want and the neck snapping G's of a turbo setup to but a BIG :) on anybody's face plus future upgradability is already there.


I have never ridin in a centri boosted car have no idea what it feels like so I'm hesitant of jumping in the bandwagon even if its the cheapest of F/I solutions... so I'm thinking of ALL the pro's and Con's for all systems while I save my money that way I wont waste time when I do have all the money saved up cash in hand to make the proper decision 1 time so I can after that concentrate on engine rebuilt once the F/i sucks the life out of the M54b30.

NICKG should do a group buy on his kit especially now that the ZHP kit is out too for more exposure I think his kit is underated a LOT. I like the fact that HPF has competition with the turbo world its good for the community too.

Can't speak for reliability/rebuidability of ASA. Or the lysholm ts.... but i think a C38 is better than the TS. ASA does have the very strong TM20. If i were to centri, and go huge, I'd go TM20. But it's sooooo expensive. Turbo is win.

[finger123]

Rebuildability!! rebuild a turbo 600-800$ ...how much would a ROTREX or VORTECH be? I'm assuming more $$$. How about the WHIPPLE TS? ASA centri? I forgot about them

Going turbo/intercooled with NICKG kit is the most powerfull of options a long ESS TS2 kit for the 330i right now but also the more expensive :( I only have 2000$ saved up canadian money(really sucks here 0.86$u.s value) so far in my F/I account not much so far but when I get to 4-5000$ I may just wait and save more and go with NICKG kit and be done with it as I know there is nothing like dialing in the PSI you want and the neck snapping G's of a turbo setup to but a BIG :) on anybody's face plus future upgradability is already there.


I have never ridin in a centri boosted car have no idea what it feels like so I'm hesitant of jumping in the bandwagon even if its the cheapest of F/I solutions... so I'm thinking of ALL the pro's and Con's for all systems while I save my money that way I wont waste time when I do have all the money saved up cash in hand to make the proper decision 1 time so I can after that concentrate on engine rebuilt once the F/i sucks the life out of the M54b30.

NICKG should do a group buy on his kit especially now that the ZHP kit is out too for more exposure I think his kit is underated a LOT. I like the fact that HPF has competition with the turbo world its good for the community too.

werent you the one talking about how you were going to use a eaton blower and fabricate your own setup and learn to tune it yourself? what ever happened to that??

[dennymedeiros]

werent you the one talking about how you were going to use a eaton blower and fabricate your own setup and learn to tune it yourself? what ever happened to that??

Yes, Its me. I kind of abandone the idea for the lack of TIME and I only have one DD with the baby coming being its only ride downtime is not an option.

when a tuning option arrives for us I will be able to tune as Im a tuner and not a programmer I learned that pretty quick when I started research and tweaking around my own MS43 code.

Nobody that tunes right now will help and I understand why too...its there bread and butter and they worked hard to get to that point.

I just wish we had a tuning solution available to buy as a package ex: "hptuners" for GM cars and I had the cash for a second BMW to work on it and build my EATON setup I wanted to do.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Always wondered which Centri S/C is best? ROTREX OR VORTECH..

Things like... Maintenance? Power(more hp more torque at same PSi)? reliability? cost to replace? street drivalibilty fun factor? Heat? startup issues?
noise levels?


We chose the smaller friction type chargers because of a few reasons. They are small in physical size but provide power on par with the larger chargers out there. They are also independent and come with their own oil supply and cooling. The physical size allows us to provide a bolt on system using an air to air intercooler, the larger blowers only have one choice, air to water.

Our kits are able to provide pretty much everything you are looking for in a well "tuned" package.

To directly answer your questions above:

Maintenance - there is very little maintenance required. Just an oil change every 20-30K miles depending on use.

Power - the friction type chargers offer just as much power as the other blowers. The actual design and tuning provided with the kit is the bigger factor to look at.

Reliability - We have been using these type of blowers for over 5 years, reliability has not been an issue. A reason we are still using these type of chargers.

Cost - Cost per unit is actually less than most of the larger blowers.

Drive ability - this is something that is provided by the package not just the blower, IE: tuning. If your question was in regards to power delivery, all centrifugal type chargers will have a linear power band.

Heat - heat will be generated from the blower which is cooled by our intercooler on most of our kits. We do have one line that is non intercooled, tested and designed in Florida heat. That should give a good example of how much heat is generated by these type of blowers.

Start up issues - once again that is due to the design of the kit not the blower.

Noise levels - all chargers will provide a whine, the friction type chargers are relatively quiet compared to the larger blowers out there.

Our kits will provide more power reliably with a stock like feel. Meaning drive ability is not lost and the charger/kit and will not provide you with an unbearable car with no support.

[MSpired]

Vortech by far.

1) They are upgradable. Rotrex doesn't have any larger options than the C38, which is already being maxed out.
2) They make more power per PSI
3) Easier to get rebuilt
4) 3 Year Warranty

Don't be fooled by the above post, air to water runs cooler than air to air. That's coming from someone that has run both on the M3.

[Activ3]

Vortech by far.

1) They are upgradable. Rotrex doesn't have any larger options than the C38, which is already being maxed out.
2) They make more power per PSI
3) Easier to get rebuilt
4) 3 Year Warranty


1) The C38 is more than enough for a non-m
2) Says who? That depends on the tune. I.E if you run a leaner AFR and don't modify the stock timing maps you're going to make more power per psi, but at a reliability risk.
3) Why rebuild? I'm going 40k+ miles on my C38
4) I've had the kit on for 3+ years..


Edit: Air to water may initially run cooler, but it's not as effective long-term, and offers poor distribution for meth setups. The majority of the setups in the F/I world that run air to water are those that have physical restrictions that prevent them from running an air to air setup. With huge housing size of the vortech unit, air to water is the only way.

[MSpired]

1) The C38 is more than enough for a non-m
2) Says who? That depends on the tune. I.E if you run a leaner AFR and don't modify the stock timing maps you're going to make more power per psi, but at a reliability risk.
3) Why rebuild? I'm going 40k+ miles on my C38
4) I've had the kit on for 3+ years..


Edit: Air to water may initially run cooler, but it's not as effective long-term, and offers poor distribution for meth setups. The majority of the setups in the F/I world that run air to water are those that have physical restrictions that prevent them from running an air to air setup. With huge housing size of the vortech unit, air to water is the only way.

1) Yes, the C38 is enough for a non M. I was referring more to M's...
2) We can use the VF (Vortech) vs. AA (Rotrex) example. With 8.5psi, VF is making around 475rwhp, while AA is making only 450 (at most) with 9psi. More CFM at the same boost will yield more power and the Rotrex is lacking CFM.
3) We won't get into the controversial discussion of which is better, Air to Air to Air to Water, each has their pros and cons. Just basing it off my experiences... VF's air to water system cools better than AA's air to air.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

1) Yes, the C38 is enough for a non M. I was referring more to M's...
2) We can use the VF (Vortech) vs. AA (Rotrex) example. With 8.5psi, VF is making around 475rwhp, while AA is making only 450 (at most) with 9psi. More CFM at the same boost will yield more power and the Rotrex is lacking CFM.
3) We won't get into the controversial discussion of which is better, Air to Air to Air to Water, each has their pros and cons. Just basing it off my experiences... VF's air to water system cools better than AA's air to air.

The OP has a non M. Wrong thread.

Stating one charger makes more power at less psi proves nothing... Only that the charger is larger. It does nothing to do with which is better... Your comparing apples to oranges.

The debate over cooling has been covered, although i would be more interested in "opinions" if vortech users had a choice on cooling method. Air to water is the only choice given to Vortech users.

[MSpired]

The OP has a non M. Wrong thread.

Stating one charger makes more power at less psi proves nothing... Only that the charger is larger. It does nothing to do with which is better... Your comparing apples to oranges.

The debate over cooling has been covered, although i would be more interested in "opinions" if vortech users had a choice on cooling method. Air to water is the only choice given to Vortech users.

That's exactly my point, Rotrex blowers are too small, and the larger Vortech units make more power since they are capable of pushing more CFM per PSI.

[BimmerDude18]

That's exactly my point, Rotrex blowers are too small, and the larger Vortech units make more power since they are capable of pushing more CFM per PSI.
No.

The engine is going to flow as much air as it can at a given pressure based on restrictions of the piping and the engine, regardless of the efficiency of the blower.

A more efficient blower will make more power at a given boost level, just as a larger turbo can make more power than a small turbo, at the same boost levels, just with a much later spool (typically).

I'd also not argue that the power differences between the rotrex and the vortech are due to the efficiency differences in the blowers, but rather in large part to differences in tuning. More power isn't better or worse in what I'm referring to, just different.

[Activ3]

That's exactly my point, Rotrex blowers are too small, and the larger Vortech units make more power since they are capable of pushing more CFM per PSI.


That sounds like a mis-interpreted regurgitation of something you read somewhere else.

More cfm per psi, if on the same motor and setup, makes absolutely no sense.

Example: If you are moving 500cfm and making 10psi, how can you move 550cfm and make the same 10psi? (assuming the setup is identical)

The difference is that if one motor is flowing more than the other, CFM would go up, and PSI would go down.

If Vortech blowers are making more HP than Rotrex blowers at the same or less psi, it's not because one blower is outflowing the other, it's because:

One motor is outflowing the other (free flowing exhaust, cams, etc.)
The Tune (leaner AFR, more timing, etc.)
One blower is putting more drag on the motor than the other (not the case, because if it was, heat would be an extreme issue. The rotrex blower has an smaller, easier blade to spin, but it needs to spin faster. The Vortech's larger wheel takes more effort, but does not need to spin as fast)

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

No.

The engine is going to flow as much air as it can at a given pressure based on restrictions of the piping and the engine, regardless of the efficiency of the blower.

A more efficient blower will make more power at a given boost level, just as a larger turbo can make more power than a small turbo, at the same boost levels, just with a much later spool (typically).

I'd also not argue that the power differences between the rotrex and the vortech are due to the efficiency differences in the blowers, but rather in large part to differences in tuning. More power isn't better or worse in what I'm referring to, just different.

That sounds like a mis-interpreted regurgitation of something you read somewhere else.

More cfm per psi, if on the same motor and setup, makes absolutely no sense.

Example: If you are moving 500cfm and making 10psi, how can you move 550cfm and make the same 10psi? (assuming the setup is identical)

The difference is that if one motor is flowing more than the other, CFM would go up, and PSI would go down.

If Vortech blowers are making more HP than Rotrex blowers at the same or less psi, it's not because one blower is outflowing the other, it's because:

One motor is outflowing the other (free flowing exhaust, cams, etc.)
The Tune (leaner AFR, more timing, etc.)
One blower is putting more drag on the motor than the other (not the case, because if it was, heat would be an extreme issue. The rotrex blower has an smaller, easier blade to spin, but it needs to spin faster. The Vortech's larger wheel takes more effort, but does not need to spin as fast)

Good posts.

Glad to see you guys understand how things work. ;)

[babydevilj]

Double

[babydevilj]

Good posts.

Glad to see you guys understand how things work. ;)

Plus they don't have to bash anyone to prove a point...

[Nik@vf-engineering]

The smaller the volumetric displacement of the supercharger (eg Rotrex / HKS), the faster it needs to be spun in order to make same CFM as larger unit (eg Vortech).

The faster you spin a unit, the more heat it creates and energy it draws from the motor.

The more heat you create, the more after cooling you need and extra hardware to cool the unit.


ergo: Small displacment units cannot compete with the larger units -This is basic engineering logic.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

The smaller the volumetric displacement of the supercharger (eg Rotrex / HKS), the faster it needs to be spun in order to make same CFM as larger unit (eg Vortech).

The faster you spin a unit, the more heat it creates and energy it draws from the motor.

The more heat you create, the more after cooling you need and extra hardware to cool the unit.


ergo: Small displacment units cannot compete with the larger units -This is basic engineering logic.


The Rotrex/HKS chargers are using smaller wheels which require more RPM than a charger using a larger wheel. Spinning it more does not necissarily relate to more drag. You are comparing two different chargers... Yes it does take more RPM but it also has the ability to spin at ~100,000+ rpm, a Vortech can not do this. Vortech's are limited to about half.

The Vortech will cause more drag at 50,000 rpm than a Rotrex/HKS at 50,000. Spinning the smaller chargers more does not mean they are causing more drag than a vortech at less RPM. They are different...

The adiabatic efficency of the smaller charges are close to 85%, meaning it produces very little heat as if compresses the air.

The chargers are designed to provide "turbo" like performance, as a result they have to be spun at similar RPM's to a turbo.

All chargers will require cooling. If I am not mistaken you are also cooling the charge from the Vortech as well... Via after cooler as it is the only choice given to the larger Votrech's due to space constraints.

Vortech's spinning at less RPM than a Rotrex/HKS are making the same power... It just takes one unit more RPM to acheive it. This does not prove anything other than the Vortech is a larger charger which does not answer the OP's question or assist him with his decision.

[Activ3]

The smaller the volumetric displacement of the supercharger (eg Rotrex / HKS), the faster it needs to be spun in order to make same CFM as larger unit (eg Vortech).

The faster you spin a unit, the more heat it creates and energy it draws from the motor.

The more heat you create, the more after cooling you need and extra hardware to cool the unit.


ergo: Small displacment units cannot compete with the larger units -This is basic engineering logic.


The larger the unit (vortech), the more energy it needs to be spun at XX,XXX rpm in comparison to a smaller unit (rotrex/hks).

Thus, the larger the blower size, the more energy it draws from the motor at the same speed.

Spinning a larger wheel takes more energy than spinning a smaller one. Also basic engineering logic.

[BimmerDude18]

The smaller the volumetric displacement of the supercharger (eg Rotrex / HKS), the faster it needs to be spun in order to make same CFM as larger unit (eg Vortech).

The faster you spin a unit, the more heat it creates and energy it draws from the motor.

The more heat you create, the more after cooling you need and extra hardware to cool the unit.


ergo: Small displacment units cannot compete with the larger units -This is basic engineering logic.
Again, no.

Any engineer has taken dynamics...dynamics teaches us all about moment of intertia, which results in a draw of torque in order to accelerate an object rotationally. The larger the diameter of something, the more torque it draws to be accelerated.

As Jean has stated, the adiabatic efficiency will effect the actual draw of the charger (per given output - psi & lb/minute - we've all seen compressor charts for turbo's and superchargers).

Further, a gear drive vs a friction drive may have different drive efficiencies, however I would assume them to be negligible.

The efficiencies between the two blowers mechanically are likely extremely comparable (basic engineering logic dictates that the draw to compress air will be much larger than the draw to drive an accelerate the compressor wheel). More importantly however would be the adiabatic efficiency at the given drive speed of the compressor. I found an efficiency chart for the rotrex (pdf here: http://www.rotrex.com/pdfs/Rotrex_Technical_Datasheet_C38_Range_V4.0.pdf), and found only information on the Vortech (here: http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=7). Both have maximum efficiencies at 78%, and they both are likely below their efficiency thresholds at 8-10 psi of boost (1.6 compression ratio would be about 9 psi).

The Rotrex runs through the mid upper 70's efficiency near 4,500-5,000 (engine) RPM's. The Vortech not having a chart (that I can find) means I have no idea as to its efficiency in use on the E46, but would assume similar.


The main difference to note is that the Rotrex is spinning near capacity (HKS improves on this) and the Vortech has room to be spun to higher boost levels. The Rotrex allows for Air/Air which makes for a more maintenance free setup (and is used in OEM applications almost anytime it is practical for packaging reasons).

[bluejeansonfire]

The smaller the volumetric displacement of the supercharger (eg Rotrex / HKS), the faster it needs to be spun in order to make same CFM as larger unit (eg Vortech).

The faster you spin a unit, the more heat it creates and energy it draws from the motor.

The more heat you create, the more after cooling you need and extra hardware to cool the unit.


ergo: Small displacment units cannot compete with the larger units -This is basic engineering logic.


bigger blower certainly doesn't mean better in every way as this post is leading people to believe.
Just like a turbo, a s/c has to be matched to an engine to use the most optimal range of its efficiency. there is an area beneath the vortech's operating range at which the drag of the charger is more detrimental than it superior maximum flow potential (which may very well go unused). The goal is to keep the blower in its optimal range of efficiency, for a smaller nonM motor, seeing much lower revs, rotrex is way more effective. This is so due to the rotrex's outrageous efficiency at lower cfms. The vortech becomes bulky, unnecessary, and parasitic at these lower cfms.

[dennymedeiros]

bigger blower certainly doesn't mean better in every way as this post is leading people to believe.
Just like a turbo, a s/c has to be matched to an engine to use the most optimal range of its efficiency. there is an area beneath the vortech's operating range at which the drag of the charger is more detrimental than it superior maximum flow potential (which may very well go unused). The goal is to keep the blower in its optimal range of efficiency, for a smaller nonM motor, seeing much lower revs, rotrex is way more effective. This is so due to the rotrex's outrageous efficiency at lower cfms. The vortech becomes bulky, unnecessary, and parasitic at these lower cfms.


This makes total sense.

+ small and compact that allows for air to air intercooling.

I'm really starting to think that the ROTREX/HKS unit are the way to go for NonM's.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

This makes total sense.

+ small and compact that allows for air to air intercooling.

I'm really starting to think that the ROTREX/HKS unit are the way to go for NonM's.

:craig: Feel free to post any other questions if you have any.

[dennymedeiros]

:craig: Feel free to post any other questions if you have any.

I got a few more :)

1) How much is a replacement ROTREX if let's say mine would die after the warranty 2 years or can you rebuild it.

2) How much $$$$ for the basic kit for the 330i but with a intercooler added and with a smaller pulley for 1-2 more PSI?

3) Anything unique about the Tune that AA provides with the kit

and Jean I have to admit I like your customer service :) very Professional:bow:

[docwyte]

You can rebuild a Vortech blower if needed. You can't with a rotrex. I had a rotrex lock up on me, as did a friend. Only option was to get another one. Luckily AA took care of it, but if they hadn't, it would've been a large bill.

BTW, 10psi is not 10 psi. Going back to my Audi days, 15psi on a K03 turbo made nowhere the same power as 15 psi on a K04 turbo.

[azzy989]

lol....no, 10 psi is always 10 psi...the difference is, a larger turbo/supercharger can flow more air at 10 psi thus creating more power. the only thing that changes relative to psi is altitude

[Activ3]

lol....no, 10 psi is always 10 psi...the difference is, a larger turbo/supercharger can flow more air at 10 psi thus creating more power. the only thing that changes relative to psi is altitude

Not quite. 10psi is always 10psi, but a larger supercharger will not flow more air. We discussed this a few posts up :)

It's different with a turbo though, since they are not belt driven, exhaust flow plays a large part in psi and HP numbers.

[Activ3]

You can rebuild a Vortech blower if needed. You can't with a rotrex. I had a rotrex lock up on me, as did a friend. Only option was to get another one. Luckily AA took care of it, but if they hadn't, it would've been a large bill.

BTW, 10psi is not 10 psi. Going back to my Audi days, 15psi on a K03 turbo made nowhere the same power as 15 psi on a K04 turbo.

That doesn't apply to superchargers.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

I got a few more :)

1) How much is a replacement ROTREX if let's say mine would die after the warranty 2 years or can you rebuild it.

2) How much $$$$ for the basic kit for the 330i but with a intercooler added and with a smaller pulley for 1-2 more PSI?

3) Anything unique about the Tune that AA provides with the kit

and Jean I have to admit I like your customer service :) very Professional:bow:

Thank You. :woot:

The Rotrex C38 chargers are $2500 retail. IE: if it did, depending on when we would help you out or offer it at a discounted price.

Our level 1 kit is $4400 (http://activeautowerke.com/viewproduct.aspx?id=Product16A) the level 2 upgrade is $2600 (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=495652&highlight=c38+level)

All of our kits are complete kits including a tune. For your model we can provide a tune whether the vehicle is MS43 or MS45. We also factor in your mods if you have any at time of tune, such as exhaust and headers. As far as being unique, the entire tune is unique as it is tuned by us and is only available from us.

You can rebuild a Vortech blower if needed. You can't with a rotrex. I had a rotrex lock up on me, as did a friend. Only option was to get another one. Luckily AA took care of it, but if they hadn't, it would've been a large bill.

BTW, 10psi is not 10 psi. Going back to my Audi days, 15psi on a K03 turbo made nowhere the same power as 15 psi on a K04 turbo.

That is true the Rotrex chargers can not be rebuilt. However they have been very reliable and treated us well. We also do everything we can to support our kits which use the Rotrex chargers, as we did above. ;)


lol....no, 10 psi is always 10 psi...the difference is, a larger turbo/supercharger can flow more air at 10 psi thus creating more power. the only thing that changes relative to psi is altitude

In regards to the PSI questions and discussion. It is true a larger charger whether super or turbo will flow more air. This does not prove which is "best".

The original question is pretty open and allows for more areas of discussion, however the OP has an E46 330 so i can only assume we are discussing the best application for his model.

Remember boost psi is what is seen in the manifold that does not make it into the engine, this give us a good idea of how much psi/compressed air is actually flowing through the engine. Altitude aside (as its a different topic).

Boost is not related to cfm. Take a look at different chargers and their flow charts, they will flow differently at different boost levels or rpm. IE: take a supercharged car with a supercharger kit on it. Lets say it makes 9 psi with the stock exhaust and headers. If you upgrade to aftermarket headers and exhaust you will see less boost but more power. Also for arguments sake if you really wanted to, on the same car you can adjust the cams and see ~13 psi and make less power.

What is important is how the system is designed and the finished product. If i am not mistaken the Rotrex based kits on the E46 330 are making more power than the Vortech based kits... So in this discussion having a larger charger means nothing and takes up more space.

A larger turbo will flow more air at the same amount of boost, this is true. A larger supercharger will make more power at less rpm, this is also true. However this does not prove which is better for his application...

________________________

Please remember Turbo's are a completely different breed of F/I. Superchargers and turbo's have one relation, they compress air. everything else such as design and how they work are different.

Although the latest superchargers such as the HKS models are using turbo like wheels.

To keep things on topic lets concentrate on superchargers.

[azzy989]

Thank You. :woot:

The Rotrex C38 chargers are $2500 retail. IE: if it did, depending on when we would help you out or offer it at a discounted price.

Our level 1 kit is $4400 (http://activeautowerke.com/viewproduct.aspx?id=Product16A) the level 2 upgrade is $2600 (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=495652&highlight=c38+level)

All of our kits are complete kits including a tune. For your model we can provide a tune whether the vehicle is MS43 or MS45. We also factor in your mods if you have any at time of tune, such as exhaust and headers. As far as being unique, the entire tune is unique as it is tuned by us and is only available from us.



That is true the Rotrex chargers can not be rebuilt. However they have been very reliable and treated us well. We also do everything we can to support our kits which use the Rotrex chargers, as we did above. ;)




In regards to the PSI questions and discussion. It is true a larger charger whether super or turbo will flow more air. This does not prove which is "best".

The original question is pretty open and allows for more areas of discussion, however the OP has an E46 330 so i can only assume we are discussing the best application for his model.

Remember boost psi is what is seen in the manifold that does not make it into the engine, this give us a good idea of how much psi/compressed air is actually flowing through the engine. Altitude aside (as its a different topic).

Boost is not related to cfm. Take a look at different chargers and their flow charts, they will flow differently at different boost levels or rpm. IE: take a supercharged car with a supercharger kit on it. Lets say it makes 9 psi with the stock exhaust and headers. If you upgrade to aftermarket headers and exhaust you will see less boost but more power. Also for arguments sake if you really wanted to, on the same car you can adjust the cams and see ~13 psi and make less power.

What is important is how the system is designed and the finished product. If i am not mistaken the Rotrex based kits on the E46 330 are making more power than the Vortech based kits... So in this discussion having a larger charger means nothing and takes up more space.

A larger turbo will flow more air at the same amount of boost, this is true. A larger supercharger will make more power at less rpm, this is also true. However this does not prove which is better for his application...

________________________

Please remember Turbo's are a completely different breed of F/I. Superchargers and turbo's have one relation, they compress air. everything else such as design and how they work are different.

Although the latest superchargers such as the HKS models are using turbo like wheels.

To keep things on topic lets concentrate on superchargers.

hehe in my response i wasn't saying necessarily which one was best. it was just a response to that statement. i do trust that you guys have know which blowers are appropriate for each given motor based on all the r&d you've done for each kit :thumbup: :D

Not quite. 10psi is always 10psi, but a larger supercharger will not flow more air. We discussed this a few posts up :)

It's different with a turbo though, since they are not belt driven, exhaust flow plays a large part in psi and HP numbers.

did some reading up above and i guess superchargers are a little bit different. great information though :)

[BimmerDude18]

You see more flow in a larger turbo because the exhaust housing becomes less restrictive to flow (like adding headers on a SC'ed car), and the intake housing draws less power from the exhaust housing, making it even more efficient to flow.

With a SC, you see the same flow regardless of boost, you may see more power however, if the charger is more efficient.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

You see more flow in a larger turbo because the exhaust housing becomes less restrictive to flow (like adding headers on a SC'ed car), and the intake housing draws less power from the exhaust housing, making it even more efficient to flow.

With a SC, you see the same flow regardless of boost, you may see more power however, if the charger is more efficient.

Agreed.

Just don't know if i would use the word "restrictive" (in regards to the back housings) although that is whats happening, they are designed to be that way. Which will allow them to work for certain applications. :)

Just because it takes an entire system to properly work on a car, its not just the turbo/supercharger. The idea is to properly match what works together with proper tuning to get the best result as far as performance and reliability.

[lacrosseguy017]

great thread with a wealth of information. I know i'm not the OP but still, thanks everyone.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

great thread with a wealth of information. I know i'm not the OP but still, thanks everyone.

You're welcome.

Feel free to post any other questions if you have any or contact me if you like.

[DEFIspeed]

Wow, this has been a great read. Coming from the turbo world, I never knew how much I didn;t understand about superchargers until now!

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Welcome to BMW's and Superchargers.

[dennymedeiros]

Welcome to BMW's and Superchargers.

Thanks Jean!! awersome information

After this thread(and months of research) I finally decided on which route to go F/I for me/my needs.

I decided to drop my money on the Active Autowerke Stage 1 C38-81 SC :)

Without taking anything away from other F/I kits..here is a few of MY PERSONAL reasons why I went with this kit:

1) Tuning...AA tunes their cars in house to perfection (Not subcontracted) tuning is what really makes the difference from great to Awesome power and reliability

2) Rotrex SC has better internal components to endure the cold weather we get here in canada
3) AA service/presence and professionalism on the forum and on the phone are amazing (Every manufacturer here has people/customers with great experiences and bad ones....but for me so far its been A+ with Active Autowerke's)
4) Level 2 upgradebility/always developping future options for us
5) Price...very affordable Level 1 SC kit
6) The Rotrex is now rebuildable ( http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=69 )

Their are pros/cons to every kit out there....these are just my personal reasons.

The ROTREX centrifugal SC will meet my boost junkie needs very well for now anyways...until level2...:banghead:

Once I receive my kit I will update everybody here with new thread(Dyno before and after/pictures/video's from the fedex guy delivering the kit to me burning up the asphalt) stay tuned....

[Novare330]

Thanks Jean!! awersome information

After this thread(and months of research) I finally decided on which route to go F/I for me/my needs.

I decided to drop my money on the Active Autowerke Stage 1 C38-81 SC :)

Without taking anything away from other F/I kits..here is a few of MY PERSONAL reasons why I went with this kit:

1) Tuning...AA tunes their cars in house to perfection (Not subcontracted) tuning is what really makes the difference from great to Awesome power and reliability

2) Rotrex SC has better internal components to endure the cold weather we get here in canada
3) AA service/presence and professionalism on the forum and on the phone are amazing (Every manufacturer here has people/customers with great experiences and bad ones....but for me so far its been A+ with Active Autowerke's)
4) Level 2 upgradebility/always developping future options for us
5) Price...very affordable Level 1 SC kit
6) The Rotrex is now rebuildable ( http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=69 )

Their are pros/cons to every kit out there....these are just my personal reasons.

The ROTREX centrifugal SC will meet my boost junkie needs very well for now anyways...until level2...:banghead:

Once I receive my kit I will update everybody here with new thread(Dyno before and after/pictures/video's from the fedex guy delivering the kit to me burning up the asphalt) stay tuned....

you'll love your AA kit :) ive had my kit on the car for a few months now and it has run perfectly, mind you, I decided to go with a custom set up, where AA had to custom tune my car, they were extremely helpful, worked with me on pricing and made sure i was 110% satisfied with everything before I walked away, their kits are excellent and their tuning is second to none, keep us posted on your kit and enjoy it in good health! :)

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Thanks Jean!! awersome information

After this thread(and months of research) I finally decided on which route to go F/I for me/my needs.

I decided to drop my money on the Active Autowerke Stage 1 C38-81 SC :)

Without taking anything away from other F/I kits..here is a few of MY PERSONAL reasons why I went with this kit:

1) Tuning...AA tunes their cars in house to perfection (Not subcontracted) tuning is what really makes the difference from great to Awesome power and reliability

2) Rotrex SC has better internal components to endure the cold weather we get here in canada
3) AA service/presence and professionalism on the forum and on the phone are amazing (Every manufacturer here has people/customers with great experiences and bad ones....but for me so far its been A+ with Active Autowerke's)
4) Level 2 upgradebility/always developping future options for us
5) Price...very affordable Level 1 SC kit
6) The Rotrex is now rebuildable ( http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=69 )

Their are pros/cons to every kit out there....these are just my personal reasons.

The ROTREX centrifugal SC will meet my boost junkie needs very well for now anyways...until level2...:banghead:

Once I receive my kit I will update everybody here with new thread(Dyno before and after/pictures/video's from the fedex guy delivering the kit to me burning up the asphalt) stay tuned....

:bow: You will love it. Looking forward to the review. :woot:

[///UCSBMPower]

I still think the HKS blower is better than the Rotrex, Im glad AA has decided to go with these!