Brake Cooling Issues With HPF Kit

[AMG ETR]

Hi Guys,
As some of you probably saw, I posted a in the showroom section of my rotors GLOWING red after a recent track day.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=690006&highlight=

I have been thinking about how I overheated them that much and came up with a few reasons.
1. Running heavy 19" wheels
2. Ran stock ZCP brakes for over 150 miles on the track that day (about 6 30 min. sessions)
3. HPF Kit components are blocking OEM brake cooling ducts.

Now 1 and 2 I will be dealing with (getting 18" track wheels) and will watch them closer at the next event. However, 3 has me concerned as I think this is the major issue here. Inside the drivers side duct is all of the methanol components and intercooler piping which pretty much blocks the entire opening, and in the passenger side is the intercooler piping and HKS SSQ BOV which block a good bit of the duct... So now I need to look for another way to get air to the brakes. Conventional brake cooling kits (IE: Turner and Bimmerworld) won't work as they used the stock location and the hoses would not clear the HPF components... So does anyone have any ideas? I am a little stumped and can't be burning through pads and rotors each track events :cry:
Thanks,
Evan

[pastE36prsntE46]

Go Asuka widebody?

[bigjae1976]

There's no way you can just make your own ducts and snake it through the maze of hoses?

Maybe make some scoops that go underneath the front bumper?

[Teen_Tuner]

use these 2:
http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/Billion-Super-Racing-Air-Duct-50mm-x-1000mm-53862

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/Billion-Super-Racing-Air-Funnel-Blue-Aluminum-50mm-53859

[bluejeansonfire]

Well, how much brake fade are you having really? It doesn't seem to me like you're doing anything except heating your stuff up from use. Larger diameter or width rotors would also expedite cooling. A larger caliper would also probably cool down faster. Are you boiling your brake fluid? If I were you, I'd bleed my brakes before the next event. RBF600 ftmfw. If you were running on damaged fluid, that would also in part cause the brakes to be less responsive, especially when hot.

If you fear for the cost of changing out brake parts, choose a pad that's really easy on rotors. Yellow is EBC's "track pad"... I run it on the street. It's really nice to rotors, but destroys itself. So lots of dust. I'm just not sure it'll be enough pad for you. There's also an old trick some people practice of using titanium plates behind the backing plates to try to keep the heat from getting so much in the caliper and in the fluid.

Another consideration is to also address the caliper. A single piston sliding design is not very sporting, but it's what BMW put on all e46s, including your CSL brakes. This system also centralizes the point of contact to the rotor and doesn't dissipate heat quiet like a one piece caliper.

Brake ducting is somewhat important, but I think you're ignoring all the other considerations of the system.

[AMG ETR]

Not looking to go widebody

Can't fit hoses in stock location at all,too much HPF stuff in the way


Well, how much brake fade are you having really? It doesn't seem to me like you're doing anything except heating your stuff up from use. Larger diameter or width rotors would also expedite cooling. A larger caliper would also probably cool down faster. Are you boiling your brake fluid? If I were you, I'd bleed my brakes before the next event. RBF600 ftmfw. If you were running on damaged fluid, that would also in part cause the brakes to be less responsive, especially when hot.

If you fear for the cost of changing out brake parts, choose a pad that's really easy on rotors. Yellow is EBC's "track pad"... I run it on the street. It's really nice to rotors, but destroys itself. So lots of dust. I'm just not sure it'll be enough pad for you. There's also an old trick some people practice of using titanium plates behind the backing plates to try to keep the heat from getting so much in the caliper and in the fluid.

Another consideration is to also address the caliper. A single piston sliding design is not very sporting, but it's what BMW put on all e46s, including your CSL brakes. This system also centralizes the point of contact to the rotor and doesn't dissipate heat quiet like a one piece caliper.

Brake ducting is somewhat important, but I think you're ignoring all the other considerations of the system.
I am actually not getting much brake fade and am perfectly happy with the stopping power of the ZCP brakes. My issue is the rotor glowing red and potentially warping every track event from heat. I am already running stainless lines (Turner) and AP 600 brake fluid (Rebadged Motul RBF600) so I am not boiling the brake fluid either. My only issue is the heat at this point...

Evan

[gasser]

have you taken off the splash shields yet? those block a bunch of airflow. I had to take mine off to fit the Alcons and I have NEVER been able to make them glow. try that first. if not, see if you can make up your own ducts that get air from the underside of the car (like a NACA duct).

[MSpired]

Why not go with some BBK's at this point?

[bimmerbum46]

Why not go with some BBK's at this point?

+1

I would for sure have a BBK with anything over 500 WHP

[AMG ETR]

Because I'm not made of money and a BBK is just not in the budget :) Plus these brakes were great on the track, the heat was my only issue so i was hoping to stay with these for awhile!
Evan

[bimmerbum46]

Because I'm not made of money and a BBK is just not in the budget :) Plus these brakes were great on the track, the heat was my only issue so i was hoping to stay with these for awhile!
Evan

I was always under the impression that you were :rofl:

You had the Gallardo, and the 996TT a few years back diddnt you? Those were some sick rides man :bow:

[docwyte]

Posted on m3forum. You shouldn't be using stock brake pads. You need race pads, real ones, not EBC. I like Hawk DTC70's or PFC01's. Removing the splash shield is a good idea, unfortunately to do that you need to remove the hub.

Wheels aren't contributing to this, ducting would help, but the issue is caused by the amount of power you have. The brakes have to work exponentially harder to shed off the additional speed now. If you're going to continue to track the car, a BBK will be needed. In the interim, get real pads, remove the splash shields and see if you can get some ducting there.

[deltasleep]

Posted on m3forum. You shouldn't be using stock brake pads. You need race pads, real ones, not EBC. I like Hawk DTC70's or PFC01's. Removing the splash shield is a good idea, unfortunately to do that you need to remove the hub.

Wheels aren't contributing to this, ducting would help, but the issue is caused by the amount of power you have. The brakes have to work exponentially harder to shed off the additional speed now. If you're going to continue to track the car, a BBK will be needed. In the interim, get real pads, remove the splash shields and see if you can get some ducting there.

yup..what he said....:hi:

[AMG ETR]

I was always under the impression that you were :rofl:

You had the Gallardo, and the 996TT a few years back diddnt you? Those were some sick rides man :bow:
That was back in the day when my familly was paying for the cars :cry: Being on my own I do what I can :) The M3 and HPF kit was a lot already for a 23 year old to buy on his own :craig:

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I will look into all of them before my next even (which is SEBRING in Aug.! Can't wait always wanted to drive that track!)
Evan

[Blacke46bmws]

Not looking to go widebody

Can't fit hoses in stock location at all,too much HPF stuff in the way



I am actually not getting much brake fade and am perfectly happy with the stopping power of the ZCP brakes. My issue is the rotor glowing red and potentially warping every track event from heat. I am already running stainless lines (Turner) and AP 600 brake fluid (Rebadged Motul RBF600) so I am not boiling the brake fluid either. My only issue is the heat at this point...

Evan


I have a 2001 330i and after a hard 5-6 min run they will glow a little bit red if so i just simple drive a semi fast lap or to around the trac, but no fast enough to reall need the breaks, and u gotta rember too the a bmw is a track car theses breaks are mean to get very hot , but if u just go on a hard run and then just stop u migh end up warping them

[deltasleep]

I have the same kit you do and after I got rid of my stock pads, rotors, lines and fluid my fade went way. I doubt it is your ic piping, infact I know that is the case. CSL bumpers that are on many cars on this site have no venting, with proper pads, rotors, lines and fluid your car will be fine. I pushed my brakes and rotors for 7 hours last month during a drive with 4 HPF cars, no fade at all. However 2 months before that I did 6 runs against Chris and his friends supra, my brakes were glowing, smoking and grinding. I had Dave at HPF find me a solution other than a BBK set up, he hooked me up with a great brake kit that performes damn near as well as a bbk kit. I did a compairson against a brembo bbk m3. This is how we compaired braking, I am sure there are better more scientific ways. On a straight road at 80 mph we would jam on our brakes at the beginning of the double solid line. We each did 8 runs back to back to attempt to make our brakes heat up and encourage fade. What our little unscientific test showed me was that the brembo BBK stopped between 48-60 inches quicker than me or half a car length. Call Dave and get the rotors, pads, lines and fluid I got and you will be fine..

[CRSmoak]

Not looking to go widebody

Can't fit hoses in stock location at all,too much HPF stuff in the way



I am actually not getting much brake fade and am perfectly happy with the stopping power of the ZCP brakes. My issue is the rotor glowing red and potentially warping every track event from heat. I am already running stainless lines (Turner) and AP 600 brake fluid (Rebadged Motul RBF600) so I am not boiling the brake fluid either. My only issue is the heat at this point...

Evan

You have two main problems, one is weight the other is the power your putting down. Put these two together, http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=690006&highlight= and this is what happens. The rotors your using are already very good. When looking at rotors in regards to heat dissipation, the three main things you want to look at are size, material, and curved vanes. For larger rotors you would need to have custom mounting brackets made for the caliper or simply buy a bbk. You won't see to much difference in material unless you can find some carbon ceramic ones, couldn't find any for the m3 though and even if I did they would cost too much. Your rotors are already curved/ as will any performance oriented rotor. So really larger rotors with custom caliper brackets or bbk would be your only option as far as rotors go.

Brake ducts would probably make more of a difference than anything mentioned above, disregarding the carbon ceramic rotors which probably don't even exist, lol. You say your brake fluid doesn't boil so that should be fine. Also stainless steel brake lines help keep a firm brake pedal, not prevent overheating or brake fade. Again in my opinion custom brake ducts would be your best bet. If you ever do buy a bbk, don't cheap out though because otherwise you won't see to big a difference as far as heat dissipation is concerned.


Another consideration is to also address the caliper. A single piston sliding design is not very sporting, but it's what BMW put on all e46s, including your CSL brakes. This system also centralizes the point of contact to the rotor and doesn't dissipate heat quiet like a one piece caliper.

Most aftermarket/performance oriented calipers like stoptech, brembo, wilwood, etc are a two piece design fixed caliper design. Most fixed calipers are made from pressure cast or forged aluminum. A monoblock/one piece caliper would in theory be a stronger design. The problem is that most monoblock calipers are pressure cast aluminum costing more than a two piece forged aluminum caliper making the two piece design more practical. You could have a forged monoblock caliper but the price would be ridiculous with minimal gain in strength. Formula 1 cars don't even use something like this.

Just some more information for you guys. Aluminum is lighter which is why they use it but it is also weaker than the steel used in most oem calipers. This is the reason most pressure cast aluminum calipers require more material. This is also why a lot of times you need spacers or new offset rims. Forged aluminum is much denser and thus does not require this. Bluejeansonfire is somewhat right about floating calipers though. They tend to somewhat drag along the rotor a little even when your not braking but the heat created would minimal if everything was working properly. It might be a good idea to check and see if the calipers need maintenance or anything though. The reason fixed calipers are preferred for racing applications is because they are more predictable as well as the ability to use more pistons.

You stated that brake fade was not an issue so a lot of my information is based around cooling your rotors not brake fade so keep that in mind. If you have brake fade than a good set of track pads will make a big difference already by themselves.

[BimmerDude18]

You have two main problems, one is weight the other is the power your putting down. Put these two together, http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=690006&highlight= and this is what happens. The rotors your using are already very good. When looking at rotors in regards to heat dissipation, the three main things you want to look at are size, material, and curved vanes. For larger rotors you would need to have custom mounting brackets made for the caliper or simply buy a bbk. You won't see to much difference in material unless you can find some carbon ceramic ones, couldn't find any for the m3 though and even if I did they would cost too much. Your rotors are already curved/ as will any performance oriented rotor. So really larger rotors with custom caliper brackets or bbk would be your only option as far as rotors go.

Brake ducts would probably make more of a difference than anything mentioned above, disregarding the carbon ceramic rotors which probably don't even exist, lol. You say your brake fluid doesn't boil so that should be fine. Also stainless steel brake lines help keep a firm brake pedal, not prevent overheating or brake fade. Again in my opinion custom brake ducts would be your best bet. If you ever do buy a bbk, don't cheap out though because otherwise you won't see to big a difference as far as heat dissipation is concerned.



Most aftermarket/performance oriented calipers like stoptech, brembo, wilwood, etc are a two piece design. Most fixed calipers are made from pressure cast or forged aluminum. A monoblock/one piece caliper would in theory be a stronger design. The problem is that most monoblock calipers are pressure cast aluminum costing more than a two piece forged aluminum caliper making the two piece design more practical. You could have a forged monoblock caliper but the price would be ridiculous with minimal gain in strength. Formula 1 cars don't even use something like this.

Just some more information for you guys. Aluminum is lighter which is why they use it but it is also weaker than the steel used in most oem calipers. This is the reason most pressure cast aluminum calipers require more material. This is also why a lot of times you need spacers or new offset rims. Forged aluminum is much denser and thus does not require this. Bluejeansonfire is somewhat right about floating calipers though. They tend to somewhat drag along the rotor a little even when your not braking but the heat created would minimal if everything was working properly. It might be a good idea to check and see if the calipers need maintenance or anything though. The reason fixed calipers are preferred for racing applications is because they are more predictable as well as the ability to use more pistons.

You stated that brake fade was not an issue so a lot of my information is based around cooling your rotors not brake fade so keep that in mind. If you have brake fade than a good set of track pads will make a big difference already by themselves.Monoblocks are preferred because they give more direct pedal feel and the pistons/pads don't shift relative to the rotor like can happen on a sliding caliper system.

Get good pads, don't run the car hard for so long, take the dust/splash shields off (note this also lets more heat get to the inner side of the wheel well, and if you have the ground clearance you could make scoops that pull air from underneath the car and direct it to the center/back of the rotors (hub area).

Might also alter your driving style to conserve brakes, a little dialing back can save a LOT of heat.

[CRSmoak]

Monoblocks are preferred because they give more direct pedal feel and the pistons/pads don't shift relative to the rotor like can happen on a sliding caliper system.

Get good pads, don't run the car hard for so long, take the dust/splash shields off (note this also lets more heat get to the inner side of the wheel well, and if you have the ground clearance you could make scoops that pull air from underneath the car and direct it to the center/back of the rotors (hub area).

Might also alter your driving style to conserve brakes, a little dialing back can save a LOT of heat.

Did you mean fixed? If not then I think you need to reread the second part of my post. It will tell you why almost all aftermarket calipers are NOT monblock design. Also, pedal feel/predictability are the same thing in my opinion, either way it has almost nothing to do with his rotors overheating. Last but not least, taking off your dust shield will not do much to help this, http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3315/amgetrglowingrotors.jpg
I do agree though that a change in driving style could potentially help. Again if you have no brake fade (as op stated) and your only concern is the rotors, it's either custom brake ducts or a very good/expensive bbk. Everything else short of major weight reduction will be minimal at best.

[bluejeansonfire]

You have two main problems, one is weight the other is the power your putting down. Put these two together, http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=690006&highlight= and this is what happens. The rotors your using are already very good. When looking at rotors in regards to heat dissipation, the three main things you want to look at are size, material, and curved vanes. For larger rotors you would need to have custom mounting brackets made for the caliper or simply buy a bbk. You won't see to much difference in material unless you can find some carbon ceramic ones, couldn't find any for the m3 though and even if I did they would cost too much. Your rotors are already curved/ as will any performance oriented rotor. So really larger rotors with custom caliper brackets or bbk would be your only option as far as rotors go.

Brake ducts would probably make more of a difference than anything mentioned above, disregarding the carbon ceramic rotors which probably don't even exist, lol. You say your brake fluid doesn't boil so that should be fine. Also stainless steel brake lines help keep a firm brake pedal, not prevent overheating or brake fade. Again in my opinion custom brake ducts would be your best bet. If you ever do buy a bbk, don't cheap out though because otherwise you won't see to big a difference as far as heat dissipation is concerned.



Most aftermarket/performance oriented calipers like stoptech, brembo, wilwood, etc are a two piece design fixed caliper design. Most fixed calipers are made from pressure cast or forged aluminum. A monoblock/one piece caliper would in theory be a stronger design. The problem is that most monoblock calipers are pressure cast aluminum costing more than a two piece forged aluminum caliper making the two piece design more practical. You could have a forged monoblock caliper but the price would be ridiculous with minimal gain in strength. Formula 1 cars don't even use something like this.

Just some more information for you guys. Aluminum is lighter which is why they use it but it is also weaker than the steel used in most oem calipers. This is the reason most pressure cast aluminum calipers require more material. This is also why a lot of times you need spacers or new offset rims. Forged aluminum is much denser and thus does not require this. Bluejeansonfire is somewhat right about floating calipers though. They tend to somewhat drag along the rotor a little even when your not braking but the heat created would minimal if everything was working properly. It might be a good idea to check and see if the calipers need maintenance or anything though. The reason fixed calipers are preferred for racing applications is because they are more predictable as well as the ability to use more pistons.

You stated that brake fade was not an issue so a lot of my information is based around cooling your rotors not brake fade so keep that in mind. If you have brake fade than a good set of track pads will make a big difference already by themselves.
This is missing the point, we're talking about street cars. If the calipers keep from moving upon themselves, there's a huge upgrade to be had.
I don't mean the number of parts to assemble the piece. Some people consider mains part of the block, sometimes it is, but ultimately the block parts don't move by design.
The inherent design flaw in the stock parts is the flexing, twisting two piece sliding calipers.
Brembo claims their calipers to be monoblock. But I didn't even say that, i said one piece. As in one piece that doesn't move, or isnt intended to.

[CRSmoak]

This is missing the point, we're talking about street cars. If the calipers keep from moving upon themselves, there's a huge upgrade to be had.
I don't mean the number of parts to assemble the piece. Some people consider mains part of the block, sometimes it is, but ultimately the block parts don't move by design.
The inherent design flaw in the stock parts is the flexing, twisting two piece sliding calipers.
Brembo claims their calipers to be monoblock. But I didn't even say that, i said one piece. As in one piece that doesn't move, or isnt intended to.

The stuff about the design was just some extra interesting information. I was just throwing names out. If Brembo claims their calipers are monoblock then fine I was simply stating why the majority aren't since you made it sound like most are. I also commented on floating rotors. In my previous post I stated that I agree fixed calipers would be better but also pointed out the fact that if the floating calipers are in good working condition, the effect would be minimal. Having fixed calipers will not help too much at all with the situation posted in the pic above. Again provided his caliper is in good condition. Thats my opinion anyway.

[bluejeansonfire]

The stuff about the design was just some extra interesting information. I was just throwing names out. If Brembo claims their calipers are monoblock then fine I was simply stating why the majority aren't since you made it sound like most are. I also commented on floating rotors. In my previous post I stated that I agree fixed calipers would be better but also pointed out the fact that if the floating calipers are in good working condition, the effect would be minimal. Having fixed calipers will not help too much at all with the situation posted in the pic above. Again provided his caliper is in good condition. Thats my opinion anyway.

I think to remedy the solution above, he needs more material, as in more rotor, probably both wider and taller. But I don't think that heating up the brakes like that is so unusual, hopefully there won't be any damage. Normally it probably isn't necessary to be on the brakes so much, but that's such a powerful car, that even if not necessary, who wouldn't want to be?

If he says he's getting NO fade, then there is no issue unless things unravel.

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

Evan, out of all the advices posted...I have a different one for you. And this is coming from someone who has done 67 track events, over the last 5 years on a FI BMW.

Get a IR temperature pyrometer. Radioshack has one. Nothing too fancy. Point and shoot at the rotors the next time you come in from a session or have a friend check the temp in the hot pits. Also while you're doing that, note the track temperature and ambient temperature. Post your findings here.

After that, then we can talk about how much you need to cool, what's obstructing what, if you need race pads, what to upgrade. I have tested brake cooling methods that you can never imagined.

[CRSmoak]

I think to remedy the solution above, he needs more material, as in more rotor, probably both wider and taller. But I don't think that heating up the brakes like that is so unusual, hopefully there won't be any damage. Normally it probably isn't necessary to be on the brakes so much, but that's such a powerful car, that even if not necessary, who wouldn't want to be?

If he says he's getting NO fade, then there is no issue unless things unravel.

I'll agree. There will be an increase in wear on rotors/pads but with no brake fade it SHOULD be ok.

[AMG ETR]

Thanks again everyone, I am still reading everything and taking it in :)


Evan, out of all the advices posted...I have a different one for you. And this is coming from someone who has done 67 track events, over the last 5 years on a FI BMW.

Get a IR temperature pyrometer. Radioshack has one. Nothing too fancy. Point and shoot at the rotors the next time you come in from a session or have a friend check the temp in the hot pits. Also while you're doing that, note the track temperature and ambient temperature. Post your findings here.

After that, then we can talk about how much you need to cool, what's obstructing what, if you need race pads, what to upgrade. I have tested brake cooling methods that you can never imagined.

I will get a pyrometer for Sebring. Its in late Aug. so the temps should be pretty up there!
THANKS!
Evan

[ObsessedM3]

Evan, out of all the advices posted...I have a different one for you. And this is coming from someone who has done 67 track events, over the last 5 years on a FI BMW.

Get a IR temperature pyrometer. Radioshack has one. Nothing too fancy. Point and shoot at the rotors the next time you come in from a session or have a friend check the temp in the hot pits. Also while you're doing that, note the track temperature and ambient temperature. Post your findings here.

After that, then we can talk about how much you need to cool, what's obstructing what, if you need race pads, what to upgrade. I have tested brake cooling methods that you can never imagined.

Good advise!!:bow: Deal with the facts instead of what people are thinking.

[CRSmoak]

Forgot to mention, it might be a good idea to throw in some extra cool down laps. Also, I'm sure you already know this but don't pull the parking brake after a session like that or any for that matter. I realize we have a drum style handbrake but it would still be a bad idea.

[docwyte]

IMO, a pyrometer is a nice tool to have, but if your rotors are glowing like that after you've parked, they're WAY too hot. Don't need a pyrometer to know that.

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

IMO, a pyrometer is a nice tool to have, but if your rotors are glowing like that after you've parked, they're WAY too hot. Don't need a pyrometer to know that.

Much like we don't need a watch to tell what time it is. If the sun is high up in the sky, it should be around 10am to 3pm, yes?


I am just approaching this from a more technical pov. Can't help it cos of my background. I never go with the kicking-the-tire and sugar-pack-under-table-legs approaches.

Cooling for the sake of cooling can be detrimental in this case. Certain pads are meant to bite within a certain temp range. Overcooling can result in less bite for the pads and less than ideal braking power.

Glowing rotors could mean 1500F, 1600F or 900F or even 700F. Having a pyrometer confirms and narrows down what range we are dealing with. Then we will know how much to cool, what race pads to use etc.

[n2Bimmer]

Not to thread jack but ^^ but Mr Paddle shift would you happen to have any pics of your cooling to the brakes, if you have any. The Non M is different under the car. tnx again man.

[n2Bimmer]

Good info

http://r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=141471
http://www.biodan.org/cooling.html
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=228700&highlight=Brake+duct

[docwyte]

Ummm, yeah. I agree with you, but if the rotors are glowing like that, they're WAY beyond the point of a street pad and most race pads. In NO way will cooling be detrimental in this situation.

[n2Bimmer]

The OP just needs some track pads and cooling ducts thats it.

[CRSmoak]

Much like we don't need a watch to tell what time it is. If the sun is high up in the sky, it should be around 10am to 3pm, yes?


I am just approaching this from a more technical pov. Can't help it cos of my background. I never go with the kicking-the-tire and sugar-pack-under-table-legs approaches.

Cooling for the sake of cooling can be detrimental in this case. Certain pads are meant to bite within a certain temp range. Overcooling can result in less bite for the pads and less than ideal braking power.

Glowing rotors could mean 1500F, 1600F or 900F or even 700F. Having a pyrometer confirms and narrows down what range we are dealing with. Then we will know how much to cool, what race pads to use etc.

I think the whole point of him wanting to cool his rotors/pads down are that they're wearing out to fast? Getting a pyrometer would be a good idea as I know some track pads can operate at these temps. Heat causes friction, which helps to slow the car down, you probably know this already. The point is track pads will not help his situation simply because they will go threw rotors even faster then they are now. If lap times were an issue I would agree but I don't think thats his complaint, or at least thats what I got from his comments.

AMG ETR, if you do get a pyrometer I wouldn't get a cheap one using laser sight. I used to have one and the readings where quite a bit different then when I upgraded to my new one. Some may not even support temperature readings up to 1000F. This is just my experience of course. I would recommend this one, http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=200&catid=7 along with the brake probe here, http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=203&catid=7

Not only will your temps be more accurate but you can use it to get more accurate readings of your tires as well. This will help with adjusting camber and things of that sort. Just saying.

Ummm, yeah. I agree with you, but if the rotors are glowing like that, they're WAY beyond the point of a street pad and most race pads. In NO way will cooling be detrimental in this situation.
You'd be surprised at the temps track pads can operate. Glowing rotors is actually fairly common in racing.

[docwyte]

Yes, glowing while in use, not glowing after a cool down lap and sitting in the pits.

He has a huge issue with cooling. The rotors should NOT look like that, particularly after a 20 minute DE session. He's not a pro racer doing an enduro...

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

I appreciate the reply.

Thing is upgrading to race pads is just one of the options I listed but doesn't mean that's what I will recommending. Much like if you're starving, you can always turn to cannibalism. An option nonetheless but doesn't mean it's recommended given the social norms we are used to.

And the laser pyrometer is just something that OP can pick up readily from Radioshack.

If I had recommended non-irreversible labels and/or Tempilaq, I think I would have drawn more blank faces. These items aren't even something you can buy off the shelves.




I think the whole point of him wanting to cool his rotors/pads down are that they're wearing out to fast? Getting a pyrometer would be a good idea as I know some track pads can operate at these temps. Heat causes friction, which helps to slow the car down, you probably know this already. The point is track pads will not help his situation simply because they will go threw rotors even faster then they are now. If lap times were an issue I would agree but I don't think thats his complaint, or at least thats what I got from his comments.

[Custom3]

im surprised HPF hasn't come in and give there 2 cents on this issue.

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

Not to thread jack but ^^ but Mr Paddle shift would you happen to have any pics of your cooling to the brakes, if you have any. The Non M is different under the car. tnx again man.

Good info

http://r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=141471
http://www.biodan.org/cooling.html
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=228700&highlight=Brake+duct


I think you just found your answers.

I may have some pictures on my other computer. Will PM you.

It may surprise you but I am not using ducting now. I am in a very good temperature zone given the combination of pads, my driving style, my current BBK setup and the weight of my car. I spent way too much time into trying different parts and track testing. Remember that day at WSIR with TCRA? No fade braking prior to turn 1 all day. Braking power repeatability is maintained.

But back when I was tracking on OE calipers and moving up from OE pads, to HP+ to HT-10 and to SpecVR, I tried brake cooling.

And not just duct cooling. Water misting (not at brakes mind you) into ducts, inline fans, caliper heat sinks you name it, I have data logged and tried all of them. Actually, there's one method I have yet to try: caliper liquid cooling. AP Racing has some built-in caliper liquid cooling. Retrofitting that or designing a different system for OE calipers is just way too tedious.

The one downfall, at least to me, about a continuous brake ducting in an E46 is setting it up. Running 3" duct behind the brake plates to the lower wheel well and then onto the front bumper seems very straight forward. It's trying to tie the ducts down to prevent sagging and rubbing with tires and suspension parts that is time consuming. Cos every track is different. You can always set it up for the tightest corner and go from there. At some pt, I reckon you will find the perfect ducting route. But it doesn't relieve the chore of having to install/remove part of the ducts at the tracks, at least for blokes like us who still drive to/back the track.

Again it's coming from my own experiences and my pov. If you want to set it up and have more questions, let me know. Afterall, I think we might the only two non-M e46s in so cal tracks. lol!

[n2Bimmer]

Dam dude, Thats some crazy stuff. Ya its really easy just need to think of a way to make it look clean and stuff, i am on Performance fric Z rated pads and they are still holding up, I will for sure get track pads soon. Lol, we dont see to many E46's out there. Hope to see you next time.

[HPF David]

Evan another solution is getting in to the powerslot rotors. They have a cryo treatment for that rotor that they freeze the rotor to a negative 300 degreee faranheit and bring it up to room temperature which is a 5 day process. I got these same set up for DeltaSleep (Derek) on his M3. this will help tremendously without breaking the bank. Also matching it up with a good race compound brake pad as well. I have a lot of options to choose from so that you dont have to spend a ton of money on BBK's. This will minimize chances of warpage and slow down the heating process while tracking the car. You know how to get a hold of me if you have any questions. I wish you the best and love that you are out using the power that we have transplanted in to your car.

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

Dam dude, Thats some crazy stuff. Ya its really easy just need to think of a way to make it look clean and stuff, i am on Performance fric Z rated pads and they are still holding up, I will for sure get track pads soon. Lol, we dont see to many E46's out there. Hope to see you next time.

Actually I missed out one detail. Titanium backing plates. These plates go between your pads and calipers to minimize heat transfer from rotor, pads, calipers, which in turn affect your brake fluid.

I might have to do a shameless plug-in here. I use plates from Tispeed.com exclusively. When I was on 330 factory calipers I can't find anyone willing to make plates for the inner pads cos of the clip. The inner pad is always in contact with the top piston and the piston is of course pressurized by brake fluid. Alan @ TiSpeed was the only one willing to work with me on that. And I believe they are still the only ones that have Ti backing plates for BMW factory pads with clips. Check out Tispeed.com when you can. 4 pieces in a set.

[bigjae1976]

This is probably a retarded question...are there any negative consequences to removing the brake heat shields?

[IFX]

Actually I missed out one detail. Titanium backing plates. These plates go between your pads and calipers to minimize heat transfer from rotor, pads, calipers, which in turn affect your brake fluid.

I might have to do a shameless plug-in here. I use plates from Tispeed.com exclusively. When I was on 330 factory calipers I can't find anyone willing to make plates for the inner pads cos of the clip. The inner pad is always in contact with the top piston and the piston is of course pressurized by brake fluid. Alan @ TiSpeed was the only one willing to work with me on that. And I believe they are still the only ones that have Ti backing plates for BMW factory pads with clips. Check out Tispeed.com when you can. 4 pieces in a set.



Are these backing plates your referring to also called Shims?