Poll: Pick my supercharger setup for me!

[zhp203]

So here's what my research has come down to and I would like everyones opinion just so I can see how all of us fanatics feel when it comes to a decision like this. Just give me your honest opinion, because I will be taking one of these options and installing it while my car sits in the garage over the winter. I have abandoned my previous thoughts of trying to aquire an hks charger for my 330 AA kit, and now focusing on these setups. I have a 2004 330ci zhp with a 6 speed tranny. By the way I have done plenty of searching on the forums, this is not to compare details of the kits or anything like that. It's mostly to see what everyone prefers. Thanks!!

--- One other thing.. I've been dying to see some better videos of the kits mentioned. Haven't really found many good ones and I know plenty of members have these kits on the same car as my own. PLEASE take some time to post some clips of your cars. I know it's alot to ask but i would love to see the cars in action and it would make a huge impact on my decision.

[The-Traveler]

I'm in the exact same boat as you, so.... subscribed.

[Acarder]

My vote is based on the idea that you'll be tracking your car. Theres no point having that 40 extra HP/Tq with the stage 2 if you can't put it effectively to the ground in the corners. If you have no intention at all of tracking the car, my vote would probably change to the ESS TS2 because it just produces more power :dunno:

[e46craze]

go with ESS, you wont be disappointed.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu192/1CLNZHP/DSC03444.jpg

[Richaraiza]

Mine's in the works. Can't wait. :excited:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=1280&pictureid=7499
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=1280&pictureid=7501

[BMW_Matt]

Have you heard of technique tuning? It's a new turbo out by nick for about the same price as the ess ts2. It puts about 315 horsepower, but I think he has stage 2 in the works if not released.

[aggieE46]

Yeah, why not turbo the car? That's my vote...

[bimmerboi19]

turbo

[zhp203]

hey guys, I'm seeing some great posts so far.. The car as of right now will not be tracked. This is something I might consider much further down the line. I just figured that the level 1 / LSD option was an idea to grab some boost, as well as being able to put it to the ground. These are some great pictures guys, thanks for posting them. As I mentioned before, I am looking to find some videos of these setups. Possibly launches, maybe a few rolling starts, etc.. I would like to get an idea of how well the car handles this extra power without having an LSD ( 1 wheelspin, fishtail) I curious how bad it is.. I'm assuming the installs didn't take very long with the ess kits.. 8 hours maybe? Did you guys come across any difficulty or fitment problems?

--- As far as TT goes, I think that they have put together a great kit, and great numbers to go along with it, but I believe that this kit truly needs to just be in the game for a while (like AA and ESS) to let their name and kit develop. This is one of the things I considered when deciding which kits I want the most. Both companies have been through just about every type of problem and question I'm sure is out there. So it's nice to know that they problems have been fixed and the kits have been improved on already. Plus, it doesn't hurt to slap on a nice big warranty to sell with your kit.. lol.. So with all that being said, I will not be taking the turbo road..

[BimmerDude18]

Nick's kit (the TT kit) has been running on his car for a long time. And Nick is well known as one of the best BMW tuners in the aftermarket industry, easily a premier tuner in the US. Go to the FI section of bimmerforums if you want to do more research.


My vote order is:

Technique Tuning Turbo
AA Stage 2 (only ranked above LSD because I don't like heat soak)
AA Stage 1 with LSD (I only rank this above ESS because LSD really is awesome...)
ESS


Call Nick, last I saw he had his kits on sale for less than the AA or ESS kits.

[Activ3]

My vote is based on the idea that you'll be tracking your car. Theres no point having that 40 extra HP/Tq with the stage 2 if you can't put it effectively to the ground in the corners. If you have no intention at all of tracking the car, my vote would probably change to the ESS TS2 because it just produces more power :dunno:
More power than what? The TS2 for the zhp puts out less power than the C38 lvl II kit.

Check my videos link in my sig.. although the 330 would make slightly more power, I have no problem putting the power down from rolls, and launching just takes a little practice. I was able to do a 12.9 @ 111mph with my open diff, on 245/40/17 PS2s. From my experience, the TS unit puts out great torque down low, but I believe the blower itself becomes more restrictive up top in comparison to a centi unit.

As for the TT kit, I stand where I did in your last thread. In kit form, it will not produce the fastest car, but it has more room to expand than any of the other kits should you wish to crack open your motor.

[paraklas]

I vote ESS for:

Top-notch component quality
First class customer service
Worry-free operation
Daily driveability with no issues at all

That said ... maybe ess can give me a tiny discount for the 330 upgrade? :shhh:

[lkstaack]

You haven't stated what your FI goals are. You should analyze your needs, desires and capabilities. You need to know:

-Your budget
-Desired HP
-Desired Tq
-Desired power band
-What you will use your car for
-Most adverse conditions its likely to see
-Level of tuning/reliability risk you are comfortable with
-Need for meeting CARB/local ordinances
-Installation needs/requirements

Each kit has it's own attributes, limitations and costs; you must find the one that best matches your needs. Any road will get you to your destination if you don't know where you are going.

[B33MER]

AA stg1 with LSD :thumbup:

[DenaliXTC]

I vote ESS. The setup looks flat out sexy along with the performance gains!

[Safar]

ESS TS2 or TT turbo. Don't consider anything else.

[ZeroSum]

I vote for option 1 as that is my personal choice. An LSD works very well with the e46. I have a quaife and fully reccomend it, you can launch hard and it makes driving on the limit far more fun and predicatble. I will never own a rwd car with out an LSD again!.

My AA Stage 1 kit is on its way soon. After much deliberation I decided on the centrifugal over the TS as I think my car will work better with the characteristcs of a CF setup. (My car has a 3.38 ratio and 6 speed from the factory and weights less than a 330 so feels plenty torquey enough at low rpm)

Another reason why I did not go for a TS is the possiblity of hearing S/C whine. I personally do not find supercharger whine a nice noise and could not live with even a hint of it. From what I gather the rotrex is silent apart from a jet like noise.

Whatever kit you choose I am sure you will be happy, all vendors / kits have their plus / negative points in terms of performance / quality / customer service etc.

[zhp203]

More power than what? The TS2 for the zhp puts out less power than the C38 lvl II kit.

Check my videos link in my sig.. although the 330 would make slightly more power, I have no problem putting the power down from rolls, and launching just takes a little practice. I was able to do a 12.9 @ 111mph with my open diff, on 245/40/17 PS2s. From my experience, the TS unit puts out great torque down low, but I believe the blower itself becomes more restrictive up top in comparison to a centi unit.

As for the TT kit, I stand where I did in your last thread. In kit form, it will not produce the fastest car, but it has more room to expand than any of the other kits should you wish to crack open your motor.

Thanks Activ... First off, great vids.. Thats the kind of stuff im looking for. Second, I know exactly what you mean by going with the TT and opening up the engine later down the road because it makes sense as far as having options for more power, but I have no idea why the previous posts about TT were brought into the thread and continue to be brought up. This isnt directed towards you, its for the rest of the thread, but I WILL NOT BE TURBOCHARGING MY CAR. I like what the superchargers have to offer and i felt that my previous post made it clear why i feel more comfortable going with either AA or ESS.. I just would like to keep this thread focused on the topic at hand.

You haven't stated what your FI goals are. You should analyze your needs, desires and capabilities. You need to know:

-Your budget
-Desired HP
-Desired Tq
-Desired power band
-What you will use your car for
-Most adverse conditions its likely to see
-Level of tuning/reliability risk you are comfortable with
-Need for meeting CARB/local ordinances
-Installation needs/requirements

Each kit has it's own attributes, limitations and costs; you must find the one that best matches your needs. Any road will get you to your destination if you don't know where you are going.

Just like many of the fanatics here, Im looking for the best overall kit/company.. My FI goals are simple, I would like to boost my car.. My budget meets the options I have chosen in the poll. I am not to sure, about which I prefer more, HP/TQ.. Which is why I chose to offer a poll because as many of you know, ESS is known for the Tq, and AA is putting up some higher hp numbers.. I live in CT and the car is only driven in the spring/summer, and I believe they both meet requirements.. The install will be done by myself and a friend, and there is no concern here..

I vote ESS for:

Top-notch component quality
First class customer service
Worry-free operation
Daily driveability with no issues at all

That said ... maybe ess can give me a tiny discount for the 330 upgrade?

Nice little review, good luck getting that discount :thumbsup: lol

ESS TS2 or TT turbo. Don't consider anything else.

You wouldent happen to have something against AA would you? lol


With all this being said so far, lets keep this poll going!!!

[e46craze]

[QUOTE=Richaraiza;10673727]Mine's in the works. Can't wait. :excited:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=1280&pictureid=7499
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=1280&pictureid=7501[/QUOTE'

werd nice choice!!!!

[Safar]

You wouldent happen to have something against AA would you? lol

Not at all. I'm biased of course because I have a TS2, but that is because I went through the same process you went. You've mentioned already you won't be tracking your car, in which case a twinscrew will be superior to a centrifugal by definition.

How often do you redline your car? Unless you spend all day above 4500rpm you'll hardly ever see any significant boost with a centrifugal compressor. For a daily driver, a twinscrew and turbo are far more enjoyable because they produce maximum boost much earlier. Who cares about 10 or 20 more hp at 6500rpm when you can have over 50% more boost at 2500rpm...

I don't have anything against AA, I just feel that as far as compressors are concerned, ESS has attained the highest level of sophistication for the non-M. Also, as paraklas mentioned they're completely problem-free.

I give credit to the TT kit as well as it does the same, and it's a turbo. But if as you've mentioned you want a kit with a longer track record, go ESS.

[Activ3]

Not at all. I'm biased of course because I have a TS2, but that is because I went through the same process you went. You've mentioned already you won't be tracking your car, in which case a twinscrew will be superior to a centrifugal by definition.

How often do you redline your car? Unless you spend all day above 4500rpm you'll hardly ever see any significant boost with a centrifugal compressor. For a daily driver, a twinscrew and turbo are far more enjoyable because they produce maximum boost much earlier. Who cares about 10 or 20 more hp at 6500rpm when you can have over 50% more boost at 2500rpm...

I don't have anything against AA, I just feel that as far as compressors are concerned, ESS has attained the highest level of sophistication for the non-M. Also, as paraklas mentioned they're completely problem-free.

I give credit to the TT kit as well as it does the same, and it's a turbo. But if as you've mentioned you want a kit with a longer track record, go ESS.


You're partially right. The TS unit provides more torque down low because full boost is achieved very early... At the same time it also puts much more stress on the motor across the entire rpm range. I also don't think the OP would be driving WOT all the time below 4k rpm anyways. Unless you're driving like a maniac, a CF kit car can and will accelerate just as fast as you'd need to when daily driving. My car will see 0 vacuum with less than half throttle, and that would mean it's putting out similar power at that point to a NA 328 at WOT (slightly less because of the SC drag). I often find myself accelerating faster than everyone else from a stoplight when applying only 1/4 throttle. Sure, when wide open from low rpm, the TS car will be faster than the CF car up to a certain point, but that's negligible unless you're racing, and even then, who starts a race from 2500rpm? AA's kit is problem free as well, puts less stress on the motor at a lower rpm, and is notably faster up top. I think that the CF kit is misunderstood.. while it doesn't create loads of boost at lower rpm, it does help you get to 0 vacuum with much less throttle.

[Acarder]

More power than what? The TS2 for the zhp puts out less power than the C38 lvl II kit.

Check my videos link in my sig.. although the 330 would make slightly more power, I have no problem putting the power down from rolls, and launching just takes a little practice. I was able to do a 12.9 @ 111mph with my open diff, on 245/40/17 PS2s. From my experience, the TS unit puts out great torque down low, but I believe the blower itself becomes more restrictive up top in comparison to a centi unit.

As for the TT kit, I stand where I did in your last thread. In kit form, it will not produce the fastest car, but it has more room to expand than any of the other kits should you wish to crack open your motor.

It appeared to me that the ESS TS2 kit made more power off ESS's website but if thats true then I was probably looking at rwhp vs bhp etc. Woops :(. Well yeah then, my vote still goes for the LSD option.

[Safar]

Hmm well, fair points, actually hadn't thought about this. But you offer up a key point here though, and that is that it's a choice. The high power at low rpm is available, doesn't mean you need to get on it if you don't want to (so that goes for the stress on the engine as well).
But the TS will actually build boost a lot quicker than just at WOT, this is something that people often misunderstand about the TS. The bypass valve closes very quickly, but you can opt out by reducing throttle even more. But my question would be: why? Might as well leave the car N/A if you don't want boost ;)

Nice time btw, I only managed a 13.9 @ 101mph with my poor launching skills... what is your setup?

[Activ3]

Hmm well, fair points, actually hadn't thought about this. But you offer up a key point here though, and that is that it's a choice. The high power at low rpm is available, doesn't mean you need to get on it if you don't want to (so that goes for the stress on the engine as well).
But the TS will actually build boost a lot quicker than just at WOT, this is something that people often misunderstand about the TS. The bypass valve closes very quickly, but you can opt out by reducing throttle even more. But my question would be: why? Might as well leave the car N/A if you don't want boost ;)

Nice time btw, I only managed a 13.9 @ 101mph with my poor launching skills... what is your setup?

Agreed. As with any kit, once you're at 0 vacuum, any applied throttle afterwards will generate boost :)

I have the AA lvl II kit, making 325rwhp on their mustang dyno. I still have my open 3.46 diff, and that run was made with 245/40/17 PS2s. My 60' was 2.0 (not too bad for street tires IMO) :)

[TxZHP04]

Sure, when wide open from low rpm, the TS car will be faster than the CF car up to a certain point, but that's negligible unless you're racing, and even then, who starts a race from 2500rpm?

You seem to underestimate the value of low and mid range torque in day to day traffic.

It sure sounds good to say that a TS stresses the motor more across the entire rpm range but you can't really back this up with anything to prove how significant a factor this is or isn't. The pitfalls associated with extended high rpm use however, even on stock motors, is well known within the race community - the long inline 6 crank is particularly susceptible to harmonics. I don't think it's fair to claim an advantage of one over the other in terms of long term durability - there simply is no concrete evidence one way or the other. You go FI, you take your chances. In all honesty though, most people have little or no problems with the off the shelf kits regardless of the compressor type. At the boost levels the off the shelf kits support, cylinder pressure is of less concern than temperature which is more a function of the tune than of the compressor type. The problems tend to come about when people start to push beyond the limits of the kits.

Performance metrics aside (as they really only matter when racing...), there is quite a difference in the driving experience between the two types of compressors. I was reminded of this just the other day by a mechanic who had test driven my car (still trying to get to the bottom of my clutch issues). He just went on and on about how strong the TS felt compared to the many CFs he's installed and driven over the years. There's more to the driving experience than simply getting from A to B in record time, especially for those not into racing.

[Activ3]

You seem to underestimate the value of low and mid range torque in day to day traffic.

It sure sounds good to say that a TS stresses the motor more across the entire rpm range but you can't really back this up with anything to prove how significant a factor this is or isn't. The pitfalls associated with extended high rpm use however, even on stock motors, is well known within the race community - the long inline 6 crank is particularly susceptible to harmonics. I don't think it's fair to claim an advantage of one over the other in terms of long term durability - there simply is no concrete evidence one way or the other. You go FI, you take your chances. In all honesty though, most people have little or no problems with the off the shelf kits regardless of the compressor type. At the boost levels the off the shelf kits support, cylinder pressure is of less concern than temperature which is more a function of the tune than of the compressor type. The problems tend to come about when people start to push beyond the limits of the kits.

Performance metrics aside (as they really only matter when racing...), there is quite a difference in the driving experience between the two types of compressors. I was reminded of this just the other day by a mechanic who had test driven my car (still trying to get to the bottom of my clutch issues). He just went on and on about how strong the TS felt compared to the many CFs he's installed and driven over the years. There's more to the driving experience than simply getting from A to B in record time, especially for those not into racing.


You're right. We don't have any evidence as to how significant higher boost levels are in relation to stress on the motor. However, is it not safe to say that a blower producing 8psi @ 2000rpm would load the motor much more than a CF unit at the same rpm?

Our cranks do suffer from harmonic issues at higher rpm's, but that would potentially be a problem for any of our cars.. regardless of which kit you're running. As far as temperatures, I believe both AA and ESS have more than adequate cooling, and I have faith that both companies provide tunes with safe timing.

I completely agree that the driving experience is a big part of the kit. I've driven a TT turbo e46, a TS'd e46, and of course my centri, and honestly I wouldn't say that one is better than another for a daily route. Like I said, I can easily out accelerate most cars on the road with little throttle input, I just might not be able to light up the tires @ 2500rpm lol


edit: so what's the new status on your clutch?

[zhp203]

these are all really good points guys.. great discussion so far..

[BimmerDude18]

I still don't understand why you write off the cheapest option with the largest headroom (turbo).

But, since you have, I'll move into pitching AA.


Most of the engine failures I've seen on M54's are guys doing stupid stuff (big power improperly), guys losing oil pressure, and ring failure. The ring failure is accelerated by too aggressive timing (tuning), and higher cylinder pressures. Aggressive timing causes higher cylinder pressures (or detonation), but typically, the BMW ring failures we see are simply from more cylinder pressure than the engine can "really" handle. Both kits are similar in reliability in my opinion, but by having more peak torque, the ESS kit has more cylinder pressure.

That said, higher RPM's cause one real harmonic issue with M54 (M50 and M52, as well as US S50/S52) engines, the oil pump nut. I'd recommend having this issue addressed no matter what if you change the stock flywheel or crank pulley, and its not a bad idea to address it on a stock motor regardless. A couple stitch welds on the nut (to the shaft) will lock it so the harmonics don't back it off and cause the oil pump to no longer be driven. Search as this is REALLY well documented. Either kit is going to make you want to drive the car harder, and end up in the upper RPM's with higher harmonic loading...

I like AA because of the Air to air intercooler, primarily, as well as their willingness to upgrade the kit without opening the engine up (if you so choose...at your risk). ESS is in a middle road position between AA and VF on this, VF refuses to offer upgrade options, and AA will help you do what you want, even against their best advice.

[TxZHP04]

You're right. We don't have any evidence as to how significant higher boost levels are in relation to stress on the motor. However, is it not safe to say that a blower producing 8psi @ 2000rpm would load the motor much more than a CF unit at the same rpm?

It's not a matter of whether the statement is true (we can't actually prove anything), it's a matter of whether the proposed phenomenon is harmful... which again we don't have any real evidence. You might say (for arguments sake) that I weigh more than you do. Does that necessarily mean that I am more susceptible to coronary disease? One might consider the almost exclusive use of positive displacement blowers in OE applications (most of which are roots blowers which are even less efficient thermally than a TS) to be a sign that the issue isn't all that significant when the car is properly tuned.

edit: so what's the new status on your clutch?

I'll update my thread so as not to take this one OT.

[BimmerDude18]

It's not a matter of whether the statement is true (we can't actually prove anything), it's a matter of whether the proposed phenomenon is harmful... which again we don't have any real evidence. You might say (for arguments sake) that I weigh more than you do. Does that necessarily mean that I am more susceptible to coronary disease? One might consider the almost exclusive use of positive displacement blowers in OE applications (most of which are roots blowers which are even less efficient thermally than a TS) to be a sign that the issue isn't all that significant when the car is properly tuned.


What car comes with a roots blower OE? Every car I can think of that has a PD style blower had a twin screw from the factory.

[TxZHP04]

What car comes with a roots blower OE? Every car I can think of that has a PD style blower had a twin screw from the factory.

Almost anything GM... the latest ZR1, Cadillacs, all their supercharged 3800s, Cobalt SS. The Shelby GT500 and other SC'd Mustangs and F150 Lightenings as well as various Jaguar, Mercedes, and Land Rover vehicles. There are certainly some factory twin screws too.

[bluejeansonfire]

Do you have anything against turbo?
My personal suggestion is turbo, though I am kind of biased, towards torque, power and upgradeability.

Vote sequence:
Technique Tuning Turbo
AA stg2
AA stg1+LSD
ESS

There's nothing wrong with ESS, but LSD improves everything. AA stage 1 is unintercooled, which is why I shy away from it, if stage 1 was intercooled, I'd say stage 1+LSD over AA stage 2. Technique Tuning has the most amazing tuning, and great reliability, customer service, absolutely unparalleled upgradeability and the most performance, above your three options. ESS is great, but they lack top end power when compared with AA or TT. There are dynos that suggest against this, but trap speeds speak louder than dynos in different conditions, and that's the most reliable thing to use to compare top-end power.

[zhp203]

Do you have anything against turbo?
My personal suggestion is turbo, though I am kind of biased, towards torque, power and upgradeability.

Vote sequence:
Technique Tuning Turbo
AA stg2
AA stg1+LSD
ESS

There's nothing wrong with ESS, but LSD improves everything. AA stage 1 is unintercooled, which is why I shy away from it, if stage 1 was intercooled, I'd say stage 1+LSD over AA stage 2. Technique Tuning has the most amazing tuning, and great reliability, customer service, absolutely unparalleled upgradeability and the most performance, above your three options. ESS is great, but they lack top end power when compared with AA or TT. There are dynos that suggest against this, but trap speeds speak louder than dynos in different conditions, and that's the most reliable thing to use to compare top-end power.

LoL I have nothing against turbocharging. I simply feel more comfortable with the other two companies. They have excellent track records, and I just feel like the TT setup and the tune is still to new.. And there is nothing better than protecting yourself with some sort of warranty which TT doesn't offer. Turbo is a great thing, HpF has me drooling 24/7 but when it comes to actually installing something on my car, I prefer a supercharger..

[BMW_Matt]

What car comes with a roots blower OE? Every car I can think of that has a PD style blower had a twin screw from the factory.

Tyler, doesn't the pontiac ion "super-dooper" top one come with a roots blower?

[Safar]

Mini Cooper has a roots too. Almost every supercharged merc has a roots; this is to save cost, obviously. The only OE cars with a twinscrew I can think of are Merc SLR, Ford GT, and 1 earlier Koenigsegg model (CCR?). Current model Koenigseggs come with Rotrex centri's and most other F/I high end cars are turbo'd.

[lkstaack]

I just feel like the TT setup and the tune is still to new.. And there is nothing better than protecting yourself with some sort of warranty which TT doesn't offer.
Rubish. TT spends alot of time and resources testing their products before they go to market, they don't use their customers as test mules. There are other reasons to select a supercharger over a turbo of course, but lack of testing isn't one of them.

[zhp203]

Rubish. TT spends alot of time and resources testing their products before they go to market, they don't use their customers as test mules. There are other reasons to select a supercharger over a turbo of course, but lack of testing isn't one of them.

Absolutely correct. There are many reasons to select a certain setup over another. I said nothing even close to TT using their customers as test mules. I am simply saying that AA and ESS have been in the game much longer, and I really like the kits that they have to offer. This thread was started to talk about those kits, and get opinions from the members as to which they prefer. I can understand why TT would be brought up in the thread but I have constantly stated in my previous posts that I will not be turbocharging my car. I don't understand why I keep being questioned as to why I am not going with TT. Can we please just stick to the three poll options I have selected? For the last time, I have absolutely nothing against TT and I like what they have to offer, I just don't want to purchase the kit for my car because I would like to go with either AA or ESS.

Thanks guys!

Keep voting and and discussing the kits!

[Richaraiza]

werd nice choice!!!!

Thanks. I know it will be well worth the month left till i get back to the states to drive it. TS2+ here I come.

[aggieE46]

Keep saying what you want, but AA and ESS don't exactly have flawless records.

[Nt_loader]

What about ASA?

[NickG@TechniqueTuning]

First of all, I appreciate everybody who's putting in a good word for Technique Tuning :thanks:

Absolutely correct. There are many reasons to select a certain setup over another. I said nothing even close to TT using their customers as test mules. I am simply saying that AA and ESS have been in the game much longer, and I really like the kits that they have to offer. This thread was started to talk about those kits, and get opinions from the members as to which they prefer. I can understand why TT would be brought up in the thread but I have constantly stated in my previous posts that I will not be turbocharging my car. I don't understand why I keep being questioned as to why I am not going with TT. Can we please just stick to the three poll options I have selected? For the last time, I have absolutely nothing against TT and I like what they have to offer, I just don't want to purchase the kit for my car because I would like to go with either AA or ESS.


I think I may know why people are pushing a turbo instead of a supercharger, despite what you've said. I think it's because the reasons you've stated are incorrect (dare I say invalid?).

For example, our kits most certainly do come with a warranty. 1 year/unlimited mileage on all kit included components.

Second, I will NEVER release a product unless I've thoroughly tested it myself. Our first E46 turbo kit was running on my own personal car for about 2 years before it was released for sale. If that's not long-term testing, then I don't know what is.

We've been building turbo kits for BMWs since 2004, and I've been tuning BMWs via the factory ECU since around 1998. I don't consider myself, or Technique Tuning, a new player in the game. We've pioneered a lot of stuff for the BMW forced induction community, and work hard to earn the reputation that we currently have.

Now, if you said you don't want a turbo kit because you don't like the sound of the turbo spooling, then that's a totally acceptable answer that nobody can argue with. But to say our kits don't have a warranty, or that we're not proven company, will get you the type of responses you've seen.

In the end, it's your choice what to get, as it's your money. But don't rule out some choices based on misinformation. If you have any questions regarding our turbo kits, don't hesitate to shoot us an email: info@techniquetuning.com

[bluejeansonfire]

You live in CT! You should make a trip down to ICS in Stamford and ask the owner, George, who is a dealer with these companies, see what he recommends for you. George has made some of the world's fastest BMWs. He is one of the utmost authorities on this matter and an installer of just about anything.

[TxZHP04]

For the last time, I have absolutely nothing against TT and I like what they have to offer, I just don't want to purchase the kit for my car because I would like to go with either AA or ESS.

Of the options you presented, I would without a doubt choose to go with ESS again. With well over 20k miles on my install, I have nothing but good things to say about their TS kits and their customer support.

Honestly though, most of the feedback that you will get is going to be biased toward whatever brand people own. With that bias in mind, perhaps you should really be asking people what kit they would buy if they were starting over and had to choose a brand different from what they are currently running. In my case, eliminating ESS as an option, I would without question choose to go with a NickG turbo. Nick's reputation within the e36, and now e46, community is nothing short of stellar. His kits are top notch, his tunes are practically legendary, and I've never heard one complaint about his products or his support. But, for whatever reason, you have issues with a turbo setup and so you have ruled out TT (seems silly but hey, it's your car and your money). Unfortunately that's all I can recommend aside from ESS - I'd remain NA before choosing any other options.

[zhp203]

Sorry Nick, but with all my research, I have found no information on the warranty. Your website fails to mention it and I found nothing about it on the forums as well. I figured if it was known then someone would have corrected me before you. But since there is so much talk about it on my thread, I guess I'm curious if you have sold any kits to any of the members that have a similar car as mine. (04 330ci zhp w/6mt) I can ask them questions and maybe get to see it in action. Anyway I'll be keeping an open mind.

[e46craze]

Of the options you presented, I would without a doubt choose to go with ESS again. With well over 20k miles on my install, I have nothing but good things to say about their TS kits and their customer support.

Honestly though, most of the feedback that you will get is going to be biased toward whatever brand people own. With that bias in mind, perhaps you should really be asking people what kit they would buy if they were starting over and had to choose a brand different from what they are currently running. In my case, eliminating ESS as an option, I would without question choose to go with a NickG turbo. Nick's reputation within the e36, and now e46, community is nothing short of stellar. His kits are top notch, his tunes are practically legendary, and I've never heard one complaint about his products or his support. But, for whatever reason, you have issues with a turbo setup and so you have ruled out TT (seems silly but hey, it's your car and your money). Unfortunately that's all I can recommend aside from ESS - I'd remain NA before choosing any other options.


I agree.

[BMW_Matt]

What about ASA?

Er, I thought they went outta business

[Mstearnsy]

Mini Cooper has a roots too. Almost every supercharged merc has a roots; this is to save cost, obviously. The only OE cars with a twinscrew I can think of are Merc SLR, Ford GT, and 1 earlier Koenigsegg model (CCR?). Current model Koenigseggs come with Rotrex centri's and most other F/I high end cars are turbo'd.

Wrong, the old Cooper S was a centrifugal blower that had no power down low. The new Cooper S is a turbo that spanks the old supercharger. Also, most Benz AMG's that had a supercharger were TS units.

[DemonOfPyro]

I'm putting my purchase in for the TT turbo kit.... TOMORROW! :4ngie::woot:

[BimmerDude18]

Almost anything GM... the latest ZR1 (twin screw- see pic here (http://image.vetteweb.com/f/8767637/vemp_0712w_02_z+2009_corvette_ZR1_LS9_engine+components.jpg) - note the twin rotors), Cadillacs (possibly, I can't find anything saying you're wrong here), all their supercharged 3800s (they called it a roots type, its an Eaton M62 Twin Screw), Cobalt SS (Eaton M62 again). The Shelby GT500 (Eaton M122...twin screw) and other SC'd Mustangs and F150 Lightenings as well as various Jaguar, Mercedes, and Land Rover vehicles. There are certainly some factory twin screws too.Those are all pretty much eaton twin scrolls.

Tyler, doesn't the pontiac ion "super-dooper" top one come with a roots blower?I think its an Eaton M62....again.

Sorry Nick, but with all my research, I have found no information on the warranty. Your website fails to mention it and I found nothing about it on the forums as well. I figured if it was known then someone would have corrected me before you. But since there is so much talk about it on my thread, I guess I'm curious if you have sold any kits to any of the members that have a similar car as mine. (04 330ci zhp w/6mt) I can ask them questions and maybe get to see it in action. Anyway I'll be keeping an open mind.Julio, bluejeansonfire, has a kit....and more.


And, you should consider TT still, and take the comments seriously, because even with your posting being very adamant that you don't want a TT kit, we all still try to convince you, that should tell you something about TT as a company....again, look on bimmerforums for someone posting a negative comment on TT, they have a very very very proven track record.

[BimmerDude18]

Wrong, the old Cooper S was a centrifugal blower that had no power down low. The new Cooper S is a turbo that spanks the old supercharger. Also, most Benz AMG's that had a supercharger were TS units.It was a twin screw as well.

[bluejeansonfire]

Sorry Nick, but with all my research, I have found no information on the warranty. Your website fails to mention it and I found nothing about it on the forums as well. I figured if it was known then someone would have corrected me before you. But since there is so much talk about it on my thread, I guess I'm curious if you have sold any kits to any of the members that have a similar car as mine. (04 330ci zhp w/6mt) I can ask them questions and maybe get to see it in action. Anyway I'll be keeping an open mind.

I have one, my car now has a zhp 6speed, but it's a 2001 zsp.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=703668&highlight=technique+tuning

here's someone that bought the kit and Nick even dynoed it.... I doubt you will touch that power with any of your other proposed options, at least not on that dyno.

With a TT kit, you'll be trapping ~110- as I did on the wastegate spring, ~7.5psi, with cams.. the kit is for 8.5psi
ESS will yield a 101 trap, i did a 100.49 NA....

you pick your poison, I'd try the more effective stuff

[TxZHP04]

Those are all pretty much eaton twin scrolls.

I think its an Eaton M62....again.

Having 2 rotors doesn't make the Eaton a twin screw. Perhaps the link below will help you differentiate the two. Even Eaton refers to the M62 and their newer more efficient TVS as Roots type blowers.

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf

[Lexie330ci]

My vote goes for technique tuning. One of the ESS stage 3 guys was telling me the other day how he wish he waited on the TT kit. but all three are win man, cant go wrong.

[zhp203]

I have one, my car now has a zhp 6speed, but it's a 2001 zsp.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=703668&highlight=technique+tuning

here's someone that bought the kit and Nick even dynoed it.... I doubt you will touch that power with any of your other proposed options, at least not on that dyno.

With a TT kit, you'll be trapping ~110- as I did on the wastegate spring, ~7.5psi, with cams.. the kit is for 8.5psi
ESS will yield a 101 trap, i did a 100.49 NA....

you pick your poison, I'd try the more effective stuff


Great numbers. I wont deny that. But im curious about something. I was watching Activ3's videos in his sig, and saw some great runs between both the AA and TT kits. Even though the 330 pulled off from the start (as it should with 300rwtq) The 328 kit caught it quick and started to pull away. I know that the AA kit is putting more horse to the ground, but isnt the TT kit throwing down alot more tq? Why wouldent it be continue to pull or atleast hold the jump it had? Especially with the increased power its getting with the upgraded cams it had installed.

[Activ3]

Great numbers. I wont deny that. But im curious about something. I was watching Activ3's videos in his sig, and saw some great runs between both the AA and TT kits. Even though the 330 pulled off from the start (as it should with 300rwtq) The 328 kit caught it quick and started to pull away. I know that the AA kit is putting more horse to the ground, but isnt the TT kit throwing down alot more tq? Why wouldent it be continue to pull or atleast hold the jump it had? Especially with the increased power its getting with the upgraded cams it had installed.


That car actually belongs to Julio (bluejeansonfire) :)

On the first run he got on the gas a bit before I did, which explains the jump, the 2nd run was more even. While his car does have more trq, up top I have more HP, where it matters for those long 3-4-5 gear pulls. I believe he dyno'd around 310whp on Nick's dyno, and I put down about ~10rwhp more on AA's dyno a while back. In that vid, I believe he was only on the wastegate springs hitting ~7.5psi. He later got a boost controller and set at 8.5psi I still had a slight advantage. We also did a few pulls with him running much more boost and 248/256 cams and he obviously walked me lol.

[zhp203]

That car actually belongs to Julio (bluejeansonfire) :)

On the first run he got on the gas a bit before I did, which explains the jump, the 2nd run was more even. While his car does have more trq, up top I have more HP, where it matters for those long 3-4-5 gear pulls. I believe he dyno'd around 310whp on Nick's dyno, and I put down about ~10rwhp more on AA's dyno a while back. In that vid, I believe he was only on the wastegate springs hitting ~7.5psi. He later got a boost controller and set at 8.5psi I still had a slight advantage. We also did a few pulls with him running much more boost and 248/256 cams and he obviously walked me lol.

so which boost controller did he end up purchasing? and you were still taking him when he had 8.5psi? How much boost did he end up pushing before he walked you? lol.. Im just saying that your car looked good in the vids. And my buddy just purchased the same exact sti that you ran against in one of the videos. Did the driver of the subbie end up letting off towards the end cause it looked like you blew his doors in and idk how that happened cause they are crazy quick lol

[Activ3]

so which boost controller did he end up purchasing? and you were still taking him when he had 8.5psi? How much boost did he end up pushing before he walked you? lol.. Im just saying that your car looked good in the vids. And my buddy just purchased the same exact sti that you ran against in one of the videos. Did the driver of the subbie end up letting off towards the end cause it looked like you blew his doors in and idk how that happened cause they are crazy quick lol

Thanks :) I did still pull him @ 8.5psi. We did multiple runs with him at 10+ psi, I don't remember exactly how high he ended up going, but he pulled me about the same as I did in our 2nd run on video.

I did ~4 pulls with the subi, and in each run he claimed he messed up the launch, or he mis shifted, etc. In the run on video he missed 4th, although clearly I was coming back HARD. He has exhaust, intake and a tune running higher boost than stock (not exactly sure how much). I can easily walk stock STi's.

[zhp203]

Thanks :) I did still pull him @ 8.5psi. We did multiple runs with him at 10+ psi, I don't remember exactly how high he ended up going, but he pulled me about the same as I did in our 2nd run on video.

I did ~4 pulls with the subi, and in each run he claimed he messed up the launch, or he mis shifted, etc. In the run on video he missed 4th, although clearly I was coming back HARD. He has exhaust, intake and a tune running higher boost than stock (not exactly sure how much). I can easily walk stock STi's.

Nice to know. My buddy has the exact same things done to his sti so atleast I know that I would be able to keep up. But I am also suprised that your car was taking Julios car even with him at 8.5psi, mostly because if i were to purchase the TT kit, i woulld most likely keep the boost at 8.5 psi for a while. And the same goes for the AA kit. I would keep that at 10.5 psi as well, so its nice to see what your kit does against the TT kit.

[ZeroSum]

Activ3, if you don't mind me asking what engine mods do you have besides than the S/C and headers & Is the stage II kit modified in any way?

Your car sounds great btw - the engine seems to rise through the revs quick almost like an M3!

[zhp203]

Activ3, if you don't mind me asking what engine mods do you have besides than the S/C and headers & Is the stage II kit modified in any way?

Your car sounds great btw - the engine seems to rise through the revs quick almost like an M3!

Exactly what i was thinking, do you have an LSD to?

[zhp203]

Quote:
Originally Posted by m28
great video, great match up!

how do you get 14psi out of the C38 blower?

Thanks! Remember that I'm running the tiny 2.8L, and have a more restrictive manifold than the 330. A 330 with the same pulley makes ~12psi but more power as well...


I noticed this from another thread and was curious about your 14psi as well but im still confused about your answer. Your talking about the pulley from the kit? Or is this some other pulley setup? I do understand the restriction from the maifold though.

[bluejeansonfire]

Great numbers. I wont deny that. But im curious about something. I was watching Activ3's videos in his sig, and saw some great runs between both the AA and TT kits. Even though the 330 pulled off from the start (as it should with 300rwtq) The 328 kit caught it quick and started to pull away. I know that the AA kit is putting more horse to the ground, but isnt the TT kit throwing down alot more tq? Why wouldent it be continue to pull or atleast hold the jump it had? Especially with the increased power its getting with the upgraded cams it had installed.

Ok, I know this sucks to say, but my car is a really bad example of this kit. As soon as my car got FI'd, it became very apparent that my junk yard engine had sat in the rain and experienced ring damage. So I started a build covered in another thread, here in the FI forum. I started working on this back in April, when it became apparent that my car couldn't be out on a road course... which isn't acceptable to me. So I boosted a lot more, shot a bunch a meth and just started to wait for it to go, which it did in mid July. Well, not 100%, the engine still worked, but it hated life and the alternator died as a separate Autozone-related issue. So I plucked the M54 out.

I think on a healthy engine, TT stage 1 at 8.5psi will take a AA stage 2 at 10.5 psi. David's car is a monster, but also consider that he is running more boost than a standard stage 2. The turbo makes gobs more torque, but at those top end rpms, that doesn't matter, torque is nice everywhere else; but up top, it's only 5k-redline. This is where the centrifugal s/c shines brightest. This is also where twin-screw s/c systems shows its weaknesses, the turbo is in between, it isn't at the efficiency of the rotrex at those rpms, but it isn't falling on its face like the twin screw. At similar boost levels, I know the turbo will always pull away (very hard) from a centrifugal on the same engine. By the way, where david just eats me, that's a short shift on my part, I had the car with an exhaust for a day at that point and wanted to find the most ideal shift points, 6200 was a bad call. For me to beat david with my tired and underpowered engine, it took 11.5psi with a shot of meth to his 14.7psi with alcohol. We run some pretty maxed out systems:pimpin:
I think 11psi is extremely safe on this engine with the addition of meth- think ~360-380whp on a dynojet on a healthy motor, with an open exhaust, my engine would still be running strong on that setup if the rings didn't turn out to be eaten. With this same setup, even with the motor dying I pulled away from a AA stage 2 ASA M3, I didn't pull away hard, but i pulled, three times over.

[Activ3]

Ok, I know this sucks to say, but my car is a really bad example of this kit. As soon as my car got FI'd, it became very apparent that my junk yard engine had sat in the rain and experienced ring damage. So I started a build covered in another thread, here in the FI forum. I started working on this back in April, when it became apparent that my car couldn't be out on a road course... which isn't acceptable to me. So I boosted a lot more, shot a bunch a meth and just started to wait for it to go, which it did in mid July. Well, not 100%, the engine still worked, but it hated life and the alternator died as a separate Autozone-related issue. So I plucked the M54 out.

I think on a healthy engine, TT stage 1 at 8.5psi will take a AA stage 2 at 10.5 psi. David's car is a monster, but also consider that he is running more boost than a standard stage 2. The turbo makes gobs more torque, but at those top end rpms, that doesn't matter, torque is nice everywhere else; but up top, it's only 5k-redline. This is where the centrifugal s/c shines brightest. This is also where twin-screw s/c systems shows its weaknesses, the turbo is in between, it isn't at the efficiency of the rotrex at those rpms, but it isn't falling on its face like the twin screw. At similar boost levels, I know the turbo will always pull away (very hard) from a centrifugal on the same engine. By the way, where david just eats me, that's a short shift on my part, I had the car with an exhaust for a day at that point and wanted to find the most ideal shift points, 6200 was a bad call. For me to beat david with my tired and underpowered engine, it took 11.5psi with a shot of meth to his 14.7psi with alcohol. We run some pretty maxed out systems:pimpin:
I think 11psi is extremely safe on this engine with the addition of meth- think ~360-380whp on a dynojet on a healthy motor, with an open exhaust, my engine would still be running strong on that setup if the rings didn't turn out to be eaten. With this same setup, even with the motor dying I pulled away from a AA stage 2 ASA M3, I didn't pull away hard, but i pulled, three times over.


I'd like to see that race... My motor isn't exactly in it's best shape either (212k miles, holds 12-14in/vacuum). A healthy 330 with the bolt on level II kit dyno's more than I do (330+rwhp, and ~15-20 more whp than the stock TT kit on a 330). The alcohol system I run doesn't allow for timing advance like Julio's 100% meth system either, it just keeps temps down a bit. Another factor for the outcome of the race is the rev range. The SC kit will make power up to just about 7k, whereas the turbo car starts to fall off after 6500. That extra 500rpm making 300+rwhp makes quite a difference, since the turbo car would already be in a higher gear at a lower rpm.

You're car can't be too horrible in comparison.. it trapped higher than the TT car in NY and Nicks car...

[zhp203]

Ok, I know this sucks to say, but my car is a really bad example of this kit. As soon as my car got FI'd, it became very apparent that my junk yard engine had sat in the rain and experienced ring damage. So I started a build covered in another thread, here in the FI forum. I started working on this back in April, when it became apparent that my car couldn't be out on a road course... which isn't acceptable to me. So I boosted a lot more, shot a bunch a meth and just started to wait for it to go, which it did in mid July. Well, not 100%, the engine still worked, but it hated life and the alternator died as a separate Autozone-related issue. So I plucked the M54 out.

I think on a healthy engine, TT stage 1 at 8.5psi will take a AA stage 2 at 10.5 psi. David's car is a monster, but also consider that he is running more boost than a standard stage 2. The turbo makes gobs more torque, but at those top end rpms, that doesn't matter, torque is nice everywhere else; but up top, it's only 5k-redline. This is where the centrifugal s/c shines brightest. This is also where twin-screw s/c systems shows its weaknesses, the turbo is in between, it isn't at the efficiency of the rotrex at those rpms, but it isn't falling on its face like the twin screw. At similar boost levels, I know the turbo will always pull away (very hard) from a centrifugal on the same engine. By the way, where david just eats me, that's a short shift on my part, I had the car with an exhaust for a day at that point and wanted to find the most ideal shift points, 6200 was a bad call. For me to beat david with my tired and underpowered engine, it took 11.5psi with a shot of meth to his 14.7psi with alcohol. We run some pretty maxed out systems:pimpin:
I think 11psi is extremely safe on this engine with the addition of meth- think ~360-380whp on a dynojet on a healthy motor, with an open exhaust, my engine would still be running strong on that setup if the rings didn't turn out to be eaten. With this same setup, even with the motor dying I pulled away from a AA stage 2 ASA M3, I didn't pull away hard, but i pulled, three times over.

Well those certainly are some maxed out systems. But I will most likely not be running anything higher than the 8.5psi stock setup for a while after i purchased the kit. With that being said, and experiencing what you have with the TT kit up against the AA kit. How do you feel the level 2 AA with only 10.5psi would fair up against the TT with only 8.5psi? No other major mods such as cams, but simple ones like an exhaust. Its tough to call cause AA= high rpms more power, and TT= more tq with only slightly less power. I feel like the same thing would happen as it did in the race you had between you two. TT pulls hard, AA catches and passes.

[zhp203]

And I don't want to get away from my topic. I'm getting alot from AA and TT.. but I haven't really heard much about ESS.. I would love some more conversation and videos on them, mostly because I have so many votes for them but nothing to really back it up with!!

[bluejeansonfire]

Well those certainly are some maxed out systems. But I will most likely not be running anything higher than the 8.5psi stock setup for a while after i purchased the kit. With that being said, and experiencing what you have with the TT kit up against the AA kit. How do you feel the level 2 AA with only 10.5psi would fair up against the TT with only 8.5psi? No other major mods such as cams, but simple ones like an exhaust. Its tough to call cause AA= high rpms more power, and TT= more tq with only slightly less power. I feel like the same thing would happen as it did in the race you had between you two. TT pulls hard, AA catches and passes.

As i mentioned in my previous post, I feel like on a healthy engine- with no other mods, I feel that the AA stage 2 @ 10.5psi vs TT stage 1 @8.5psi, the TT system will best the AA.... though it wont be by much- I think it would be close though. And keep in mind, what you saw was before FI cams, I was running the NA cams that are known to have minimal to no effect in e46nonM boosted cars- with about half the boost David was running- and he was shooting alcohol, I was shooting nothing, then- and his engine had no measurable blowby (piston leak), where mine had tons. And that goes on to say, that at the AA system's brightest moment (this is a test in the absolute favor of a centrifugal s/c setup)- in the test where it is most likely to win (a roll starting in 2 or 3rd gear, above 4,500rpm)... I think the TT kit will still take it. The TT kit will win without a doubt if the test is manipulated in its favor, like a full gear pull, both cars starting from 30mph in 3rd gear, the TT car will pull bus-lengths on an AA car due to its severe torque advantage, the AA car will hardly be in view.

If you want an assesment of ESS, take what Safar said, 101mph trap
me@0psi: 100.49
me@7.5psi: 110.9
activ3@14.7psi: 112
safar@8psi: 101

...these figures translate directly to a straight line, high rpm pulls' outcome like what you saw in the video

[bluejeansonfire]

I'd like to see that race... My motor isn't exactly in it's best shape either (212k miles, holds 12-14in/vacuum). A healthy 330 with the bolt on level II kit dyno's more than I do (330+rwhp, and ~15-20 more whp than the stock TT kit on a 330). The alcohol system I run doesn't allow for timing advance like Julio's 100% meth system either, it just keeps temps down a bit. Another factor for the outcome of the race is the rev range. The SC kit will make power up to just about 7k, whereas the turbo car starts to fall off after 6500. That extra 500rpm making 300+rwhp makes quite a difference, since the turbo car would already be in a higher gear at a lower rpm.

You're car can't be too horrible in comparison.. it trapped higher than the TT car in NY and Nicks car...

you're not wrong at all. But I still think the TT car would be a bit quicker, though I do think it would be close. things like gearing and other variables would also need to be taken into account. What we accomplished is little more than grounds for speculation with our two fully modded cars and effed engines. When we first started my car, the blowby was just a bit, but it was obvious. It got a lot worse. When we first did those pulls, you're faster, but it isn't a world's difference, if we had raced with my car at the final 11.5-12psi with meth, with the health status i had in february, i think it would have been a much bigger difference. and though your engine is old, and down on power, it isn't leaking boost or losing anything in your cylinders like i was.

I would really like to see some races with some healthy engines, you need to finish your build.... me too though (I'll have the 60 for a little while more)

also consider the limits of this comparison, what if we say it has to be catted. I think AA stg2 with stock exhaust manifolds will dyno 20+whp low... where TT with a cat will still dyno better than what i did.

[Mstearnsy]

If you want an assesment of ESS, take what Safar said, 101mph trap
me@0psi: 100.49
me@7.5psi: 110.9
activ3@14.7psi: 112
safar@8psi: 101

...these figures translate directly to a straight line, high rpm pulls' outcome like what you saw in the video

How did you run a 100 MPH 1/4 in a stock 330? Or was it a heavily modded NA 330 at that point?

[bluejeansonfire]

How did you run a 100 MPH 1/4 in a stock 330? Or was it a heavily modded NA 330 at that point?

264/248 cams, ebay headers, diff, wrong tune (not for cams)

i wouldn't say there's anything heavy about that setup

a properly setup (tires) and driven stock zhp on a cold day at a great dragstrip can do it too, i think

[Activ3]

As i mentioned in my previous post, I feel like on a healthy engine- with no other mods, I feel that the AA stage 2 @ 10.5psi vs TT stage 1 @8.5psi, the TT system will best the AA.... though it wont be by much- I think it would be close though. And keep in mind, what you saw was before FI cams, I was running the NA cams that are known to have minimal to no effect in e46nonM boosted cars- with about half the boost David was running- and he was shooting alcohol, I was shooting nothing, then- and his engine had no measurable blowby (piston leak), where mine had tons. And that goes on to say, that at the AA system's brightest moment (this is a test in the absolute favor of a centrifugal s/c setup)- in the test where it is most likely to win (a roll starting in 2 or 3rd gear, above 4,500rpm)... I think the TT kit will still take it. The TT kit will win without a doubt if the test is manipulated in its favor, like a full gear pull, both cars starting from 30mph in 3rd gear, the TT car will pull bus-lengths on an AA car due to its severe torque advantage, the AA car will hardly be in view.

If you want an assesment of ESS, take what Safar said, 101mph trap
me@0psi: 100.49
me@7.5psi: 110.9
activ3@14.7psi: 112
safar@8psi: 101

...these figures translate directly to a straight line, high rpm pulls' outcome like what you saw in the video



:werd: but even when we did the pull with you @ 8.5psi + 248/256, I still pulled slightly, and hung with you that night when you were hitting 10psi on the bahamian raceway lol

[TxZHP04]

Its tough to call cause AA= high rpms more power, and TT= more tq with only slightly less power.

You can't decide based on specs alone unless you're simply looking for bragging rights. You really have to decide how you intend to use your car and select the kit with the characteristics that best meet your neeeds. Track (I believe you've said no, not any time soon), daily driver, street racer? What rpm range do you anticipate operating the engine at? What speeds do you expect to operate your car (how often do you really expect to redline your car in 3rd gear or higher on the street)? What additional mods are you willing/able to make? Are you going to need to work around any local emissions inspection issues? I think your decision will be much easier if you are realistic about your "needs" (as if any of us needs FI :eeps:).

[e46craze]

You can't decide based on specs alone unless you're simply looking for bragging rights. You really have to decide how you intend to use your car and select the kit with the characteristics that best meet your neeeds. Track (I believe you've said no, not any time soon), daily driver, street racer? What rpm range do you anticipate operating the engine at? What speeds do you expect to operate your car (how often do you really expect to redline your car in 3rd gear or higher on the street)? What additional mods are you willing/able to make? Are you going to need to work around any local emissions inspection issues? I think your decision will be much easier if you are realistic about your "needs" (as if any of us needs FI :eeps:).

this isnt my thread but good points just addressed! ESS TS2 suits my every day street needs:)

zhp203 - you cant go wrong with either company but it all comes down to what your really looking for.

[zhp203]

You can't decide based on specs alone unless you're simply looking for bragging rights. You really have to decide how you intend to use your car and select the kit with the characteristics that best meet your neeeds. Track (I believe you've said no, not any time soon), daily driver, street racer? What rpm range do you anticipate operating the engine at? What speeds do you expect to operate your car (how often do you really expect to redline your car in 3rd gear or higher on the street)? What additional mods are you willing/able to make? Are you going to need to work around any local emissions inspection issues? I think your decision will be much easier if you are realistic about your "needs" (as if any of us needs FI :eeps:).

lol well the car is a daily driver only 6-7 months out of the year. It will not be tracked any time soon. I love to hear my tse3 so I open it up as much as I possibly can. I often get pretty high in rpms when in 3rd every day on the street, and I do need to pass emissions. Once boosted, I will look into cams, but again, probly not right after installing my kit.

[zhp203]

I don't have to drive very far to school or work at all, but I know that I will be driving and running the car up against some of my friends cars once boosted, so my amount of driving will greatly increase of course.

[TxZHP04]

Not familiar with CT emissions... make sure you know what it's going to take to pass before taking the plunge on any kit.

[zhp203]

thanks for that advice, I will..

[zhp203]

As i mentioned in my previous post, I feel like on a healthy engine- with no other mods, I feel that the AA stage 2 @ 10.5psi vs TT stage 1 @8.5psi, the TT system will best the AA.... though it wont be by much- I think it would be close though. And keep in mind, what you saw was before FI cams, I was running the NA cams that are known to have minimal to no effect in e46nonM boosted cars- with about half the boost David was running- and he was shooting alcohol, I was shooting nothing, then- and his engine had no measurable blowby (piston leak), where mine had tons. And that goes on to say, that at the AA system's brightest moment (this is a test in the absolute favor of a centrifugal s/c setup)- in the test where it is most likely to win (a roll starting in 2 or 3rd gear, above 4,500rpm)... I think the TT kit will still take it. The TT kit will win without a doubt if the test is manipulated in its favor, like a full gear pull, both cars starting from 30mph in 3rd gear, the TT car will pull bus-lengths on an AA car due to its severe torque advantage, the AA car will hardly be in view.

If you want an assesment of ESS, take what Safar said, 101mph trap
me@0psi: 100.49
me@7.5psi: 110.9
activ3@14.7psi: 112
safar@8psi: 101

...these figures translate directly to a straight line, high rpm pulls' outcome like what you saw in the video

thanks for the figures by the way. i know that just about every member loves watching some boost clips. I know I do and I have found 0 clips of an ts2 running against any other car. I would really like to see what they can do (like the AA and TT kit videos that Activ3 has) Please, can someone post a video.

[BimmerDude18]

What is the procedure for emissions testing in CT? If its just a sniffer and an OBDII scan it may be easy to get away with most any kit (cats in for testing....TT comes with a high flow cat that might pass). If its more complex, including full visual inspection (ala california) you might have to look at making good friends with the tester and helping him out a bit to get by.....;)

[zhp203]

What is the procedure for emissions testing in CT? If its just a sniffer and an OBDII scan it may be easy to get away with most any kit (cats in for testing....TT comes with a high flow cat that might pass). If its more complex, including full visual inspection (ala california) you might have to look at making good friends with the tester and helping him out a bit to get by.....;)

well I have to check it out, but I think I remember them saying that all the testing sites are directly connected to the DMV through a computer system, and there is no way to have someone help you out. even though my family has been friends with the owner of a shop that does emission testing for many years, he wouldent be able to help out.

[lkstaack]

well I have to check it out, but I think I remember them saying that all the testing sites are directly connected to the DMV through a computer system, and there is no way to have someone help you out. even though my family has been friends with the owner of a shop that does emission testing for many years, he wouldent be able to help out.
I think any of the kits you're looking at will pass a siffer test. However, does CT have a visual check? I'm purchasing a stealth ESS TS2 in part because it will pass most inspectors visual check, either at the smog station or a random stop on the road.

[Safar]

264/248 cams, ebay headers, diff, wrong tune (not for cams)

i wouldn't say there's anything heavy about that setup

a properly setup (tires) and driven stock zhp on a cold day at a great dragstrip can do it too, i think


Let's keep the comparison fair though, shall we? :)

My only modification was the TS, which was (recently uncovered) running at 6.5psi, not 8psi (I'm receiving a new pulley to sort this).

Also, I have no headers, no cams, 2.93 diff, and a 2.8l engine, not a 3.0l. So it's not exactly stock vs stock + TS.
This is at least a 60bhp difference in power already, conservatively (40 for the engine, 20 for the headers/cams).
I had every thinkable weight-adding option in my car, nothing stripped out. How's yours? :)
I was on street tires, not on a drag strip, and no burnout or anything to imrove traction.

And most importantly, you're a far more experienced dragracer than I am (I've done maybe 10 runs in my life?) so it's not exactly fair to compare the kits' performance on this basis. Keeping in mind that your car was far from stock, and the man driving the TS2 is, for all intents and purposes, an idiot :)

[Safar]

Wrong, the old Cooper S was a centrifugal blower that had no power down low. The new Cooper S is a turbo that spanks the old supercharger.

Not true, the old Cooper S has an Eaton M45, which is a roots (most if not all Eatons are). It had no power down low because it's a POS 1.6l engine.

Also, most Benz AMG's that had a supercharger were TS units.

I know this is the F/I forum, and lots of ballers live here, but Mercedes makes quite a few supercharged non-AMG engines as well... [/sarcasm]

[zhp203]

What is the procedure for emissions testing in CT? If its just a sniffer and an OBDII scan it may be easy to get away with most any kit (cats in for testing....TT comes with a high flow cat that might pass). If its more complex, including full visual inspection (ala california) you might have to look at making good friends with the tester and helping him out a bit to get by.....;)


Well I had a quick minute to try and find out and it appears that this is what they do in CT.

Parameters of the Inspection
The emissions inspection includes the following tests:

Gas cap leakage
An onboard diagnostics exam for vehicles 1996 or newer
An acceleration exam for vehicles 1995 or older
An idling test for some vehicles
Special tests for diesel-powered vehicles

So is there anything I can get away with that others cant? :4ngie:

[bluejeansonfire]

Well I had a quick minute to try and find out and it appears that this is what they do in CT.

Parameters of the Inspection
The emissions inspection includes the following tests:

Gas cap leakage
An onboard diagnostics exam for vehicles 1996 or newer
An acceleration exam for vehicles 1995 or older
An idling test for some vehicles
Special tests for diesel-powered vehicles

So is there anything I can get away with that others cant? :4ngie:

looks like this is mostly for roadworthiness, not emissions, you should be good going insane

[zhp203]

looks like this is mostly for roadworthiness, not emissions, you should be good going insane

Insane, as in...?

Any examples of some things, some people wish they can do but are limited do to their emissions?

[bluejeansonfire]

Let's keep the comparison fair though, shall we? :)

My only modification was the TS, which was (recently uncovered) running at 6.5psi, not 8psi (I'm receiving a new pulley to sort this).

Also, I have no headers, no cams, 2.93 diff, and a 2.8l engine, not a 3.0l. So it's not exactly stock vs stock + TS.
This is at least a 60bhp difference in power already, conservatively (40 for the engine, 20 for the headers/cams).
I had every thinkable weight-adding option in my car, nothing stripped out. How's yours? :)
I was on street tires, not on a drag strip, and no burnout or anything to imrove traction.

And most importantly, you're a far more experienced dragracer than I am (I've done maybe 10 runs in my life?) so it's not exactly fair to compare the kits' performance on this basis. Keeping in mind that your car was far from stock, and the man driving the TS2 is, for all intents and purposes, an idiot :)

trap speed shouldn't be too effected by the diff, maybe launch. I have never been on race tires at the drags. And my best passes to date were right in front of a closed drag strip, on a flat stretch, verified in both directions with a racelogic GPS unit, i was within .5mph both ways- the first of which was 110.9@7.5psi, and that was with a 200lbs passenger.
at the drag strip. My car, when i ran a 13.7@100.49 (13.6@99.96) was full weight, just had an m3 hood and a cf trunk lid, maybe 20lbs, i weight over 200lbs- and the spare was helping me with traction, so i kept it in. If I made 220whp then I would have been outrageously lucky. You didn't miss any gears did you? Unless you did, there's little the driver can do t damage trap speed, I guess you could have raced at part throttle in higher gears- that would do it too.

moral of the story:

101 trap speed= 245whp MAX on a mustang dyno
there's a stage 1 330 AA running around here with an auto, i think he can do over 103, and he's on 6psi on a c30 (discontinued baby rotrex for the b28/b30)
he dynoed right around 250whp

[bluejeansonfire]

Insane, as in...?

Any examples of some things, some people wish they can do but are limited do to their emissions?

it doesn't seem like they do a sniffer test, so you don't need to run a catalytic converter.... much less have it installed in the stock location... in california or ny you'd be boned. You can also delete your secondary air pump at your leisure. you can pretty much do whatever you want, as long as your tune is solid. here in florida we have 0 tests- we go insane.
i haven't had cats since 06, no air pump since 07. The cat delete will make your car sound better, get better gas mileage, smell like poison, and be faster, especially if instead of replacing the stock manifolds for headers, you do for a turbo manifold and a 60 trim.

[zhp203]

it doesn't seem like they do a sniffer test, so you don't need to run a catalytic converter.... much less have it installed in the stock location... in california or ny you'd be boned. You can also delete your secondary air pump at your leisure. you can pretty much do whatever you want, as long as your tune is solid. here in florida we have 0 tests- we go insane.
i haven't had cats since 06, no air pump since 07. The cat delete will make your car sound better, get better gas mileage, smell like poison, and be faster, especially if instead of replacing the stock manifolds for headers, you do for a turbo manifold and a 60 trim.


Great to know :thumbsup: But will using aftermarket headers and not having any cats throw any codes?

and what exactly will deleting my secondary air pump do for me?

[TxZHP04]

it doesn't seem like they do a sniffer test, so you don't need to run a catalytic converter.... much less have it installed in the stock location... in california or ny you'd be boned. You can also delete your secondary air pump at your leisure. you can pretty much do whatever you want, as long as your tune is solid. here in florida we have 0 tests- we go insane.
i haven't had cats since 06, no air pump since 07. The cat delete will make your car sound better, get better gas mileage, smell like poison, and be faster, especially if instead of replacing the stock manifolds for headers, you do for a turbo manifold and a 60 trim.

But it looks like they do perform an OBDII emissions test, it's not the free for all you have in FL. I wouldn't recommend removing the air pump. Might be able to slide by with a cat delete (headers) with O2 sims.

[bluejeansonfire]

But it looks like they do perform an OBDII emissions test, it's not the free for all you have in FL. I wouldn't recommend removing the air pump. Might be able to slide by with a cat delete (headers) with O2 sims.

i'm not sure what is included in that OBD2 test. A good tuner can remove fault codes from cats and the pump.... considering the pump is removed more for the purpose of decluttering your underhood, also considering it has no purpose without a cat. But if there's a thorough visual inspection, and if the inspector knows what he's looking at, it might be a good call to leave the pump alone indeed.

[zhp203]

i'm not sure what is included in that OBD2 test. A good tuner can remove fault codes from cats and the pump.... considering the pump is removed more for the purpose of decluttering your underhood, also considering it has no purpose without a cat. But if there's a thorough visual inspection, and if the inspector knows what he's looking at, it might be a good call to leave the pump alone indeed.

I know the inspectors very well. There would be no problem with visual inspection. Im just not sure about all the OBDII testing and what i would be able to get away with. I would love to purchase headers, but i feel like i need cats, and i dont want to install high flow cats.

[TxZHP04]

A good tuner can remove fault codes from cats and the pump.... But if there's a thorough visual inspection...

All things the OP needs to work out in advance. Nothing worse than building up your car only to find later that you can't pass inspection.

[zhp203]

All things the OP needs to work out in advance. Nothing worse than building up your car only to find later that you can't pass inspection.

Very true. Every Kit mentioned so far will work, which is great, but its just the minor details above that need to be ironed out before install.

[bluejeansonfire]

I know the inspectors very well. There would be no problem with visual inspection. Im just not sure about all the OBDII testing and what i would be able to get away with. I would love to purchase headers, but i feel like i need cats, and i dont want to install high flow cats.

if you go s/c, you NEED headers. You'll be 20+whp short of the reported dyno sheets. You can go and buy some cats and put them in, if you absolutely need them. For the turbo kit, TT includes a cat with the kit. I personally don't run it as i am above emissions as I live in Florida. But, according to the dyno, it is a very high flow cat and eats away fewer than 5 whp. With the cat and stock rear muffler, the car is way quieter than stock.

I would call George at ICS, he mods lots and lots of bimmers with boost, and he's in CT... he would know what you need to find out.

thanks for the figures by the way. i know that just about every member loves watching some boost clips. I know I do and I have found 0 clips of an ts2 running against any other car. I would really like to see what they can do (like the AA and TT kit videos that Activ3 has) Please, can someone post a video.

Both Activ3 and myself have a "e46nonM" link in our sigs- this is our e46nonm performance blog, there are a few vids you might enjoy in there

PS: bithlo= worst drag strip ever
bithlo can haz uphill

[TxZHP04]

if you go s/c, you NEED headers. You'll be 20+whp short of the reported dyno sheets.

Don't disagree that headers would certainly free up some additional power but their necessity really depends on what your goals and priorities are.

[zhp203]

well, if I am buying any one of these kits, I want the most amount of power they have to offer (not so much with TT because I know there is much more power to be had, but do not plan on opening up the engine anytime soon) anyway, I'm not really big on modifying my tse3 to install high flow cats. when I looked farther into ct emissions, it mentioned that the inspector visually checks for cats, but since ours are within the headers this is not possible for him to see. will the obdII scan pick up that I have no cats if I were to install just headers without high flow cats?

[msbhvn]

Thanks for the thread guys, honestly one of the most informative posts for my self yet...keep it up.

ZHP203, good luck with your choice, whichever that may be.

[TxZHP04]

will the obdII scan pick up that I have no cats if I were to install just headers without high flow cats?

Yes, unless you have your software modified accordingly or use O2 sims. Frankly, you will likely need one of these solutions even if you have high flow cats. Relocating the cats further downstream typically throws off the stock cat monitoring logic. Many many threads around on the problems people run into with headers with and without cats. Software and O2 sims seem to be the most reliable solutions.

[zhp203]

Yes, unless you have your software modified accordingly or use O2 sims. Frankly, you will likely need one of these solutions even if you have high flow cats. Relocating the cats further downstream typically throws off the stock cat monitoring logic. Many many threads around on the problems people run into with headers with and without cats. Software and O2 sims seem to be the most reliable solutions.

ok, sounds good. thanks for filling me in.

msbhvn Thanks for the thread guys, honestly one of the most informative posts for my self yet...keep it up.

ZHP203, good luck with your choice, whichever that may be.

Thanks msbhvn. This thread is incredibly informative and I would lik to thank everyone answering questions and providing information. I'm sure there are plenty of members considering F/I and I would love for this thread to help them out as well.

[zhp203]

just a small update:

I've been in contact with one of the companies for a few days now... I haven't heard back from them for 2 days, but it could be because it's the weekend.. I will have more on this to inform everyone hopefully by the middle of the week!!

[zhp203]

*** UPDATE ***


First, I want to thank everyone that decided to leave posts on this thread with advice and opinions... :bow:


After much needed research into F/I and the things that come along with it, I have decided to go with an AA LEVEL 1 KIT :str8pimpi
The kit has already arrived at my house and I must say that it looks as great as everyone says it does.. :drool:

My reasoning behind this decision:

1) After posting this thread, JEAN :craig: from Active contacted me and was able to negotiate a deal that ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE CAN OR SHOULD REFUSE... and guys, im dead serious when I say that this deal was AMAZING..

2) Once a price was put on the table, I started to consider what I can do over the winter with all of the money that I would be saving if I had bought this LEVEL 1 Kit instead of the LEVEL 2, TS2, or even a TT Kit..

This would include:
-- Replacing my Front control arms due to damaged ball joints, upgrading to polyurethane bushings, and getting everything re-aligned (which I finished this past weekend)
-- Reinforcing my subframe
-- Purchasing Ceramic-Coated Headers and o2 sims
-- Keeping an eye open for an LSD, although I would like to research the two main companies first (Kaaz+Quaife)
-- Upgrading my Clutch/Flywheel
-- And of course saving up for Level 2, so that come spring time my car will be properly prepared for it :pimpin:

So with all that being said, I would like to thank the following companies thus far, for flawless customer service and products....
-- Active Autowerke.. most importantly Jean for the unbelieveable kit and price
-- UUC Motorwerks.. for the well known TSE3 catback exhaust, and EVO3 SSK
-- Turner Motorsport.. great cross-drilled rotors
-- EAS.. for the matte black V710's
-- JLeviSW.. beautiful D2S 6000k bulbs
-- Umnitza.. awesome Orion v2 6000k 60LED's
-- Modbargains.. for the Lamin-X tints, and K&N Intake (which will be for sale soon enough)
-- Euro-Spec.. replacement front mtech bumper and splitters
-- And everyone else for the misc. replacement/upgrade parts

I will post pictures of my car w/the kit installed when spring time rolls around, but for now, I can give you an idea of what the car is currently looking like.. IPHONE QUALITY... :facepalm:

[zhp203]

Ehhh one more...

[illfx]

congratz man!!

welcome to the club. I had my good times and bad times with AA. But they worked with me and my shop to resolve our issues. You'll love the kit. I'd recommend doing the clutch soon.

good luck bro!!

btw, who is doing your install?

[zhp203]

I have a friend who I can honestly say is one of the best when it comes to working on cars.. he use to work for quite a few dealerships like Ferrari, BMW, Acura.. etc.. he got cancer and had to stop but he's doing much better now, and works for himself.. I have no problem handing the car over to him, and if there are any people in the ct area that need work, I would highly reccommend him.. top quality work for half less than what the stealership would charge..

[Minnoe07]

I guess I'm a little late to the party, in fact, the party let out and there is nobody left, but here is my personal 2 cents anyways. And I already know the purchaser already bought an AA supercharger but I just wanted to add to this already informative thread.

First, 101 mph trap speed for a TS2 is BS. You are taking probably one of the slowest runs that the TS2 can do and comparing it to one of the best of the other companies. I am no drag strip wonder but here is my time slip.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n161/Minnoe07/BMW/Dynos%20and%20Timeslips/scan0001-2.jpg

Now first, let me say that I do NOT have an LSD. I had limited traction at launch, and wheel spin in second AND in third. Traction was unmanageable at this track and I still managed a 103+ trap. This was also done on street tires deflated to approximately 30 psi and no weight modification except spare wheel removal. No CF hood, no CF trunk.

Let me also say that I probably have the world's weakest 330ci. Here is my original dyno and my dyno after the TS2 install.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n161/Minnoe07/BMW/Dynos%20and%20Timeslips/scan0001-1.jpg

Notice my measely 189 whp stock while most cars do mid 190's or low 200's. This affected the total horse power the TS2 could put out. On a stronger engine, the TS2 would have put out another 10-15 whp.

These two factors combined, I'm sure that the TS2 can easily do a 105 trap at the strip. I know this isn't a 110 trap speed, but to say a TS2 can only do a 101 trap speed is rediculous. I will be getting a OS Giken LSD soon and we will really see what a TS2 can put down with some traction.

A quick word about the companies in general.

ESS is da bomb! I love the TS setup. It is great for almost every application EXCEPT autocrossing. Soooooo much torque down low makes power management a chore in 2nd gear.

AA is a great company as well. I probably would have went with AA if they would have had an option for me back when I was buying a supercharger kit. Back then, they did not have anything for the MS45 cars and ESS was the first company to have an option for me and the TS was to drool for. Still a great company.

NickG, OMG, I want turbos so bad. Why couldn't you have come out with something earlier than the ESS TS?!?!!?!? Oh well......

[zhp203]

2 cents are always welcome, and you also reminded me to look at an OS Giken LSD.. thanks for dropping in :thumbsup:

[bluejeansonfire]

pinion type lsd = clunk, clunk, clunk, squeak, chhhh, chhh...... vroooom... silent

i'm not sure if that makes any sense, but coming from someone who has a nearly 100% locking pinion diff, that sh!t's loud and kind of annoying. As far as I know, the pinion diffs are all the same 1.5-2 way. The kaaz is hardly over a grand. anyone know of anyone running an os giken in a 188k diff?

[Safar]

@Minnoe07: Fairly pointed out, I wish we can put an end to this 101 trap for a TS2. I've already pointed out this was with my 2.8 at 6.5psi, so that's at least 50rwhp down on a 3.0 at 8psi (which is what everyone thinks we're talking about when we say TS2). Rest of the performance being bone stock + all the weight in the world kills the trap speed.

[illfx]

I have a friend who I can honestly say is one of the best when it comes to working on cars.. he use to work for quite a few dealerships like Ferrari, BMW, Acura.. etc.. he got cancer and had to stop but he's doing much better now, and works for himself.. I have no problem handing the car over to him, and if there are any people in the ct area that need work, I would highly reccommend him.. top quality work for half less than what the stealership would charge..

Thats great man!! My shop is also an AA dealer and have the capability of uploading DME maps. So if you need tuning, etc and don't want the down time you can go to my guy. Then its all bout emailing data, not physically removing and shipping your dme.

Good luck with the install!!

Btw I saw that you're from Waterbury, I grew up in Danbury. There are a few shops there that can dyno your car if you want a before and after.

[zhp203]

Thats great man!! My shop is also an AA dealer and have the capability of uploading DME maps. So if you need tuning, etc and don't want the down time you can go to my guy. Then its all bout emailing data, not physically removing and shipping your dme.

Good luck with the install!!

Btw I saw that you're from Waterbury, I grew up in Danbury. There are a few shops there that can dyno your car if you want a before and after.

Great to know illfx... What are some of the shop names so i can check them out??

[illfx]

There is one on south street, I think its Performance Imports, across the street from Lee Myles. I remember the Speed Vision Porsches used to come there for dyno tuning when they raced at Lime Rock.

[Activ3]

@Minnoe07: Fairly pointed out, I wish we can put an end to this 101 trap for a TS2. I've already pointed out this was with my 2.8 at 6.5psi, so that's at least 50rwhp down on a 3.0 at 8psi (which is what everyone thinks we're talking about when we say TS2). Rest of the performance being bone stock + all the weight in the world kills the trap speed.
Stu (330izhp) ran a 13.0 or 13.1 (can't remember exactly) @ 103mph with his TS2+ on his ZHP with a LSD. I think his highest trap was 108mph.

[zhp203]

There is one on south street, I think its Performance Imports, across the street from Lee Myles. I remember the Speed Vision Porsches used to come there for dyno tuning when they raced at Lime Rock.

sweet, do you happen to know what kind of dyno they use? if not, no big deal..

thanks for the info..