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-   -   What Liquid Intercooler for 330Xi ? (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=604441)

jhriss 08-31-2008 12:26 AM

What Liquid Intercooler for 330Xi ?
 
Hey,

Have the VT-1 ESS SC Kit with 7psi, stepping to 8.5 psi pulley, have water/alc. from snow performance with variable boost controller, but ESS is saying I need an Intercooler, and that it is impossible and it is to fit an air to air cause of front AWD ducting, pipes, diff etc. so I need a liquid intercooler.

What one and how the hell is this going to work?? I'm trying to picture it and can't. My filter is down in the brake duct inlet on my Strassentech bumper, where the hell does this thing go?? Sites, links , pics??

Thanks guys,

Jason

jhriss 08-31-2008 12:27 AM

and yes I have headers, no cats, exhaust, high flow resonators etc. so that is done fyi, just in case someone was going to suggest for more power.

TxZHP04 08-31-2008 08:20 AM

I'm not aware of an off-the-shelf solution to your problem, you're probably going to have to fabricate something on your own.

ESS uses an air-water intercooler on the twin screw systems but it utilizes Laminova cores housed in a custom cast aluminum intake manifold, which also supports the compressor. It has water lines which run to/from another heat exchanger behind the front bumper. The coolant is circulated by an electric pump. The TS manifold won't work with your VT-1 kit though so the trouble lies in how to effectively package some sort of heat exchanger in the intake path between the compressor outlet and the intake ports in the head.

The only company I'm aware of to attempt an air-water setup on a centrifugal system is VF-Engineering. They did it by creating a custom intake manifold but they only have one for the M3 and, IIRC, they wouldn't sell a manifold by itself anyway because they would prefer to sell an entire kit.

As I said, I don't believe there's an off-the-shelf solution for you and the only way I'm aware of to make it work is to custom fab an intake manifold with an integrated heat exchanger. It's not a trivial task to design an intake with proper flow characteristics. Even if you were to accomplish this, you would still be giving up the stock dual resonance intake design which would likely cost you some low end torque which your centrifugal compressor isn't going to make up for.

Long story short, just stick with the 7 psi pulley ESS originally spec'd for the system.

jhriss 08-31-2008 01:44 PM

Water is nine (9) times more effective for cooling then air is. Think of a stove hot frying pan. Frantically wave it in the air, or shove it in a sink of water. Water is a much better cooling medium. The other benefit of the more effective charge cooler is that it can be smaller. Air-to-air coolers typically loose 2-3psi of boost because of the amount of air it takes to fill the large core and the piping all the way down to the bumper then up to the throttle body. Air-to-water is much more direct and typically looses less then one-forth (1/4) of a psi.


Having pulled this from the Vortech Website and doing my due diligence concerning water alcohol injection I am still just a bit confused by a few forum posts over the web. From own knowledge of science from meteorology and chemistry, I understand how a water alc kit works with an fine high pressure aquamist that atomize as the hot air charge hits it evaporating the water and then burning the methanol when it hits the cylinders. I know and comprehend the endothermic reaction that takes place to the adiabatic cooling rate of water and how much kinetic energy it absorbs when it expands and evaporates and I know how the methanol boosts the octane extremely to help again avoid detonation while maintaining the clean engine.

I can understand that the injection can be a bit inconsistent compared to an intercooler as it is a spray nozzle and it could spray more or less or get clogged etc. but what I don't is why some people on forums say that it is merely a bandaid/cheap substitute or only a compliment well utilized when combined with an intercooler as well. At the same time others boast about the amazing efficiencies of water alc injections and its superior qualities over and intercooler.

One thing that makes sense to me is that the boost will not be restricted or slowed down with water injection because the air is ramed into the apron to the filter in the front of my M3 bumper then straight into the Centrifugal blower motor then through the throttle body to the engine, vs. an intercooler or after cooler will slow down and restrict the boost by so much that if I did add 2 psi of boost I might as well lose that even with a liquid intercooler, so even though the air charge will be cooler now prior to intake the outcome in forced induction to the engine could be the same.

My Question in closing this post:

Since a water/methanol injection system with a variable boost controller like mine and all the upgrades is very consistent and I have a 2 gallon trunk kit, wouldn't this really be more beneficial since it actually cools directly inline after the MAF without slowing down the air charge and it also adds high octane and cleaning to the engine for more power as compared to an intercooler which slows down air flow and does not add an other properties to the air charge?

As for consistencies I know the intercooler pulls through the same cooling ports each time as compared to injections which is just water/meth being sprayed around as a mist into the air intake, but really, why do so many people including s/c companies always say intercooler is better ??

Maybe someone could explain to me how an intercooler works better or provide me a good link to learn. How the air comes in, where it is filtered (is a filter used still??), etc.

jhriss 08-31-2008 04:46 PM

Ok, I am a master on intercoolers, aftercoolers, liquid and air now, not really a master, but educated, so I know the deal. Still any thoughts and insight on my water alc. vs. custom intercooler which for my ride is going to a be a kit from Vortech for an after cooler it looks like, which is essentially what my WI does since it cools after compression vs. intercooler prior to compression. Anyway, for this ish to work it's going to be tons of work, custom fabed stuff and all for 2 psi increase?? I think I should go much higher with boost and a smaller pulley even so that I go up 4 psi to 10 psi so when the aftercooler or intercooler slow air down I still get an actual 8psi plus to the engine and at a cooler air charge temps. Sounds to me like an intercooler cools down prior to compression to fit more air and cool down external air, but still is hot as hell when it comes out and goes to engine, so actually aftercooler is better for protecting and avoiding detonation just doesn't add as much power since it doesn't increase the amount of air that can be fit coming into the compressor. So many variables. It seems like if my water alc holds down internal temps actually in the engine then it is superior as latent heat is absorbed extremely by actual water in the air charge evaporating, vs. just coming in contact through fins and stuff for milliseconds with any kind of inter or after cooler. Hold something hot against a cool pipe for a second or spray cold water on directly on it and see what cools it down faster.

jhriss 08-31-2008 10:16 PM

Bump, anyone knowledgeable got anything worthwhile to say here?

Kanaljen 09-01-2008 02:24 PM

I have the VT-1 kit from ESS in my 330i and working on a liquid to air kit.

So far, I have the heat exchanger mounted in the front, the easy part. I have a bosch water pump ready and an charge cooler (from a old Nissan turbo I think).

The trick is to find a charge cooler core that is small enough to fit under the hood, close to the intake.. Once you find that, it should be easy.. just water lines to draw to the front.

ESS states that no re-tuning is necessary, I hope they are right.

Search for my name and you'll find some recent threads with good info on this topic.

Cheers,

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhriss (Post 8464834)
Bump, anyone knowledgeable got anything worthwhile to say here?


jhriss 09-02-2008 01:36 AM

For a decent kit I'd have to have a full service shop I use to do this at $100 and hour so that looks like 14 hours or so $1400 and tax then $2100 for the ESS kit, so like $3600, but more actually cause if I have to take off the bumper I need to have an antenna and my laser star heads r an i'd too, so when said and done just for an intercooler $4100. I could just put better cylinders in and new seals/O-Rings or maybe stroke man. Is it really worth it to do this if I already spent $1200 on Water Injection?? I mean seriously, is this really going to give me that much more or is it really necessary to not blow my engine?? At this rate, I might as well just rebuild and do new cylinders it looks like and not cut boost etc?

Thoughts suggestions, seems like this is over precautionary, I could just get away with 2psi more and bump up the WI spray or go with a bigger nozzle.

Kanaljen 09-02-2008 01:32 PM

I replied to your PM.

When doing so, I didn't realize that you already have injection.. Some good info in there thought. I think when you start packing on too much on that VT1 setup, you need to get the whole thing re-tuned.. Have you talked with ESS yet? Or, is there a shop doing custom tuning? If so, what would be the cost? Soon, you should just sell the car and get an M.. :)



Quote:

Originally Posted by jhriss (Post 8469738)
For a decent kit I'd have to have a full service shop I use to do this at $100 and hour so that looks like 14 hours or so $1400 and tax then $2100 for the ESS kit, so like $3600, but more actually cause if I have to take off the bumper I need to have an antenna and my laser star heads r an i'd too, so when said and done just for an intercooler $4100. I could just put better cylinders in and new seals/O-Rings or maybe stroke man. Is it really worth it to do this if I already spent $1200 on Water Injection?? I mean seriously, is this really going to give me that much more or is it really necessary to not blow my engine?? At this rate, I might as well just rebuild and do new cylinders it looks like and not cut boost etc?

Thoughts suggestions, seems like this is over precautionary, I could just get away with 2psi more and bump up the WI spray or go with a bigger nozzle.


lefortez 09-02-2008 02:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
you can try getting this complete intake manifold from hiop-racetec from germany. they install this on a ess vt1 e46 328i in one of their test.

Kanaljen 09-02-2008 07:08 PM

Cool!! I never found that when I searched for options..

Wonder how much it costs.. Would like to see some independent reviews with dynos..

Good find!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefortez (Post 8471958)
you can try getting this complete intake manifold from hiop-racetec from germany. they install this on a ess vt1 e46 328i in one of their test.


jhriss 09-02-2008 07:37 PM

Hey Kanaljen, I am using ESS new software for the upgrade kit and a pulley and contitech belt from them so it all goes smoothly. I have the ISO1494 com port to USB adapter, a current version of MTH Cartune with release code, so when I get it put on I'll just use my laptop set with the right com port and reflahs, takes about 10 minutes when you're ready. Let me know if you need info on this.

Kanaljen 09-02-2008 08:07 PM

Ugh.. sounds cool, not that familiar with MTH cartune; sounds like it provides the ability to fine-tune your software yourself?

When you say just a reflash, what do you reflash it to? Is it preset for the configuration you have or is it based on your own fine tuning? Can you for example, make the 5k-7k band at WOT 5% richer or leaner? That type of self tuning?

Might have to hit you up on that if my cold air takes the current tune outside the ability to self adjust...

As we talked about, I'll post some pics of my setup once it's done. Need to get creative and fit that intercooler somewhere.. the front mounted heat exchanger is done and looks pretty sweet..

later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhriss (Post 8473280)
Hey Kanaljen, I am using ESS new software for the upgrade kit and a pulley and contitech belt from them so it all goes smoothly. I have the ISO1494 com port to USB adapter, a current version of MTH Cartune with release code, so when I get it put on I'll just use my laptop set with the right com port and reflahs, takes about 10 minutes when you're ready. Let me know if you need info on this.


jhriss 09-02-2008 08:51 PM

Yeah man, MTH Cartune is just a software application that allows you to reprogram with the file that ESS gives you that you pay $500 for, and the ISO adpater is the interface cable to connect. Hope that helps. This way you don't have to send them your ECU!! and they can just have you read car etc. and do updates easily whenever you mess with stuff. They are good, my AFR's are an even 12 across and then at 6.5 psi a bit rich at 11.5 now, everything in harmony.

Kanaljen 09-03-2008 09:35 AM

Oh, so it's more of a "tool" to download provided software into you ECU via the port, not a tool allowing you to change the various parameters of the software yourself..

But, as you say, much easier than sending off the ECU.. especially if ESS is willing to look at AFR graphs, make appropriate tweaks to the software and sending you back the file to download (using the MTH cartune application).

Side note: How do you measure your AFR? I want one bad but have read that the stock exhaust manifold on the 330i has the cats built in , which makes it impossible to attach the probes for teh AFR gauge.. Is this correct? Do I need to aftermarket headers to be able to get an accurate AFR reading?


Quote:

Originally Posted by jhriss (Post 8473725)
Yeah man, MTH Cartune is just a software application that allows you to reprogram with the file that ESS gives you that you pay $500 for, and the ISO adpater is the interface cable to connect. Hope that helps. This way you don't have to send them your ECU!! and they can just have you read car etc. and do updates easily whenever you mess with stuff. They are good, my AFR's are an even 12 across and then at 6.5 psi a bit rich at 11.5 now, everything in harmony.


jhriss 09-03-2008 12:55 PM

Hey man,

That is true, I have no cats at all. So much more power man. Seriously dude, before you go messing around making a custom intercooler bro, you need to get those restrictive ass headers and cats the heck off there. When you have forced induction you have so much more air and exhaust you need to move through there. If you get those things off there you'll feel at least like 45 HP and a lot of torque and more throttle response man. After the SC, it was night and day, then with a set of RD headers, same as supersprint only Italian made, it was like night and day again. Trust me it's worth the $1200 or so, or get them used for like $750 or so, only thing is install is like 9 hours of labor for a shop cause they have to lift you engine out a bit and un do some of the SC ducting, but seriously you need to get some headers man, and if you can get away without cats like I can cause i reged my car in a county at my other addie that has no emissions, then do it!!

jhriss 09-03-2008 12:55 PM

So yeah, when you have no cats, then AFR is simple, of course.


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