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-   -   ? about Valve Springs and Tuning (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=730768)

95blkmax 01-01-2010 02:16 AM

? about Valve Springs and Tuning
 
Hi guys! Im new to the bimmer realm so be gentle :hi:

In my case, this would refer to an M52TU

VALVE SPRINGS QUESTION-
Does anyone here know at what point do the OE valve springs experience valve float? How much lift can they handle before they bind? How much rpm at x amount of lift (say the Schrick 272s with 11mm lift) can they go before valve float takes place?

I ask because I see people changing the cams, having an extended rev limiter, yet no mention of valve springs having been updated. My background experience comes from Nissans (mainly VQ30 and VQ35s, the latter of which's valve springs can take 10.5mm lift as long as the stock redline is maintained, after that VQ35HR valve springs are the cheapest upgrade and they can handle an awesome 13mm lift before binding) and from Chevy (mainly LS1, for which the OE valve springs... lets just say it is not uncommon for valve springs to literally break on a 100k+ mile engine, even with the STOCK cam) lol.

So are the OE valve springs on these M50-54 engines really made that strong that they do not require changing for such an upgrade of cams as the 272s would be?

TUNING QUESTION-
Has there been an update on Jim Conforti releasing that so awaited end-user tuning software that I've read on some really old threads here and on bimmerforums? I had never been a fan of cookie-cutter tune. On my Nissan I went through an Apexi AFC, then to a Greddy E-Manage Blue, later to an Ultimate. On my Camaro SS I dealt with HP Tuners. Is there anything out there available for the end-user to tune his/ her own car with THAT IS NOT a full stand-alone?

I read on bimmerforums years ago of only like 2 guys having been able to get the Greddy E-Manage to work. They had to solder diodes on the ignition leads into the DME to get it to work without burning coils (correct me if Im wrong, Im recollecting from old memories of these threads) and I dont recall if they had to use some sort of crank position trigger rig or not...


Thanks guys for the help! This is my first BMW, it's an 00 328i, 5spd, ~95k mi, sports package. I've had it for about 3 weeks now and it's running silky smooth. But as much as I love the car, I cant help not to feel it a big anemic in the power department in it's stock form (coming from a turbo Maxima with a VQ35 [374whp, 374wtq], and later an 02 Camaro SS with "a few bolt-ons" [333whp, 343wtq]... it's a big change lol). Mild boost (mild to me being in the 300-320whp range) is surely in the future for this car, but not anytime soon. For now, Im just doing NA mods to make the car feel a bit more "respectable" in the power department :woot:

95blkmax 01-03-2010 12:36 AM

*crickets* :-X

Iceman00 01-03-2010 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95blkmax (Post 11116081)
*crickets* :-X

I feel you.

dfjaws 01-03-2010 03:05 AM

-Shark Edit.... is never coming out.... ever.

-There is nothing like OpenSource for BMW's. Best bet is call up Active Autowerke and tell them what you have, they can make you a decent tune.

-Cams+'Shark Injector' will not be a big enough change for you to need to worry about valve float. A guy on here, PEI330CI, would definitely be able to steer you in the right direction as far as M54 N/A building goes. As far as long term reliability, I haven't heard of an internally stock BMW motor, that's been properly maintained, that has had any catastrophic failures. (save for some people running crazy boost on stock block or something)

PEI330Ci 01-03-2010 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfjaws (Post 11116449)
-Shark Edit.... is never coming out.... ever.

-There is nothing like OpenSource for BMW's. Best bet is call up Active Autowerke and tell them what you have, they can make you a decent tune.

-Cams+'Shark Injector' will not be a big enough change for you to need to worry about valve float. A guy on here, PEI330CI, would definitely be able to steer you in the right direction as far as M54 N/A building goes. As far as long term reliability, I haven't heard of an internally stock BMW motor, that's been properly maintained, that has had any catastrophic failures. (save for some people running crazy boost on stock block or something)

BTW, I've inspected one of the "high boost" engines in person....it was in great shape. The only "wear" item appears to be the rings...but I suspect that is because the ring gap from the factory is set for much lower power, and they are binding with the heat generated at higher power levels.

I didn't have problems reving my stock block/head to 7k RPM with the 264/248 Schrick cams....I think I put 15k miles on the engine before I tore it apart. (Non-fault related)

As far as benchmarks go with a stock block N/A engine, Brady is the guy to watch.

mrshelley 01-03-2010 02:34 PM

For a stock 3.0l motor, the valves will float at 8200rpm. At that point it'll bend the exhaust valves. I've seen it tested enough times.

You need to remember, a 4 valve motor has much lighter valves in it and it doesn't have to deal with a rocker arm and pushrod (as in a Chevy motor). So, valve springs are a great upgrade if you decide to start turning some serious RPM. If you change out the springs, then you better put in some better retainers. The stock ones are marginal.

PEI330Ci 01-03-2010 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrshelley (Post 11117628)
For a stock 3.0l motor, the valves will float at 8200rpm. At that point it'll bend the exhaust valves. I've seen it tested enough times.

Is that what you call "field testing"?

I found it amazing that the OEM exhaust valves, which are smaller than the intake valves, are heavier. (Different alloy?) Bending them first makes sense....

FYI, the Supertech 34mm SS intake valves weigh 47grams, and the 31.5mm inconel exhaust valves weigh 50 grams.

aggieE46 01-04-2010 10:42 AM

Good info here

95blkmax 01-04-2010 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman00 (Post 11116392)
I feel you.

lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfjaws (Post 11116449)
-Shark Edit.... is never coming out.... ever.

-There is nothing like OpenSource for BMW's. Best bet is call up Active Autowerke and tell them what you have, they can make you a decent tune.

-Cams+'Shark Injector' will not be a big enough change for you to need to worry about valve float. A guy on here, PEI330CI, would definitely be able to steer you in the right direction as far as M54 N/A building goes. As far as long term reliability, I haven't heard of an internally stock BMW motor, that's been properly maintained, that has had any catastrophic failures. (save for some people running crazy boost on stock block or something)

LOL so much for hoping for end-user software lol



Quote:

Originally Posted by pei330ci (Post 11116991)
BTW, I've inspected one of the "high boost" engines in person....it was in great shape. The only "wear" item appears to be the rings...but I suspect that is because the ring gap from the factory is set for much lower power, and they are binding with the heat generated at higher power levels.

I didn't have problems reving my stock block/head to 7k RPM with the 264/248 Schrick cams....I think I put 15k miles on the engine before I tore it apart. (Non-fault related)

As far as benchmarks go with a stock block N/A engine, Brady is the guy to watch.

good to know!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrshelley (Post 11117628)
For a stock 3.0l motor, the valves will float at 8200rpm. At that point it'll bend the exhaust valves. I've seen it tested enough times.

You need to remember, a 4 valve motor has much lighter valves in it and it doesn't have to deal with a rocker arm and pushrod (as in a Chevy motor). So, valve springs are a great upgrade if you decide to start turning some serious RPM. If you change out the springs, then you better put in some better retainers. The stock ones are marginal.

good info, thank you guys!

One more thing, does anyone happen to know what the overlap of the stock cams and these Schrick cams is? Since I'll be turbo'ing the engine later, this is good info to know :-). Thanks!

mrshelley 01-04-2010 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pei330ci (Post 11117865)
Is that what you call "field testing"

We have done extensive field testing. Seems that fields work well for testing.

bigjae1976 01-04-2010 11:15 PM

subcribed...

morris 01-06-2010 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrshelley (Post 11117628)
For a stock 3.0l motor, the valves will float at 8200rpm. At that point it'll bend the exhaust valves. I've seen it tested enough times.

You need to remember, a 4 valve motor has much lighter valves in it and it doesn't have to deal with a rocker arm and pushrod (as in a Chevy motor). So, valve springs are a great upgrade if you decide to start turning some serious RPM. If you change out the springs, then you better put in some better retainers. The stock ones are marginal.

I would like to rev some more when I install cams.(7400-7500 if possible)

this is on a m54 ...I need springs and retainers or will stock do?


has anybody reved over 7k with 264 cams? any power up there?

Iceman00 01-06-2010 01:12 AM

Doubt it, and I think we can agree the 2.5 or 2.8 is a better block if you want to rev.

95blkmax 01-06-2010 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman00 (Post 11130497)
Doubt it, and I think we can agree the 2.5 or 2.8 is a better block if you want to rev.

Shorter strokes will have a higher rev-biased power band (all else constant), always. However, that the 3.0 doesnt like the revs as much as these lower displacement motors may just be due to intake manifold flow limitations more than anything else. Look at the S54 for example; bigger displacement, longer stroke, yet a very rev-happy engine that makes power all the way to the top (ITBs FTW in that case lol).

Not saying you're wrong, just clearing up for people that many not know of the subject as much :)

PEI330Ci 01-06-2010 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morris (Post 11130327)
has anybody reved over 7k with 264 cams? any power up there?

I've rev'd to 7600 with the 264/248 cams and a fully built engine. In my experience, there really isn't a lot of power above 6600 RPM unless you make radical changes to the intake. (Requires running a NON-OEM ECU)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman00 (Post 11130497)
Doubt it, and I think we can agree the 2.5 or 2.8 is a better block if you want to rev.

From a stroke perspective yes, but the "block" has nothing to do with it.

TxZHP04 01-06-2010 08:28 AM

I was under the impression that crank harmonics and/or the oil pump became major issues beyond ~7000 rpm. Adam, I know you upgraded to the ATI damper and I believe you were running a modified oil pump, presumably you also had the damper/crank/flywheel/PP assembly balanced as a unit during your build?

Rob43 01-06-2010 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TxZHP04 (Post 11131254)
I was under the impression that crank harmonics and/or the oil pump became major issues beyond ~7000 rpm.....

Your correct, but the danger zone is 6600-6800 rpm. I'm good friends with a race
team that runs a Grand Am Cup car(330). They say when the M54 sits at
about 6700 rpm for awhile, like the long back straight at VIR, all hell breaks
loose. Turner Motorsport has addressed this problem,(the oil pump shaft shears off) but it's
not cheap. The good news is, all of us out on the street turning 7000 rpm (me included) have
nothing to fear because are motors don't sit at 6700 rpm for a sustained period of time.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...ILPANBAFFLEKIT

Rob

Iceman00 01-06-2010 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95blkmax (Post 11130620)
Shorter strokes will have a higher rev-biased power band (all else constant), always. However, that the 3.0 doesnt like the revs as much as these lower displacement motors may just be due to intake manifold flow limitations more than anything else. Look at the S54 for example; bigger displacement, longer stroke, yet a very rev-happy engine that makes power all the way to the top (ITBs FTW in that case lol).

Not saying you're wrong, just clearing up for people that many not know of the subject as much :)

You're a Maxima guy, so I know your thinking about the DE-K's dual manifold design, and the VQ's undersquare design, but I have to say it's not the same with these cars. Like the KA24DE, the B30 has a long stroke, and like the KA when the rev's get high, the harmonics do nasty things.

I'm not sure what could be done to further improve the intake manifold, besides going with a custom one. I even looked at the Newer N series manifolds, and no dice.

I wish I had a B28, it's a square set up that could rev, and have the B30's torque.

Iceman00 01-06-2010 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob43 (Post 11131986)
Your correct, but the danger zone is 6600-6800 rpm. I'm good friends with a race
team that runs a Grand Am Cup car(330). They say when the M54 sits at
about 6700 rpm for awhile, like the long back straight at VIR, all hell breaks
loose. Turner Motorsport has addressed this problem,(the oil pump shaft shears off) but it's
not cheap. The good news is, all of us out on the street turning 7000 rpm (me included) have
nothing to fear because are motors don't sit at 6700 rpm for a sustained period of time.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...ILPANBAFFLEKIT

Rob

I think the B30 intake manifold was made to push the powerband further left in comparison to the B25 manifold. I have no way to really compare this without a back to back dyno of the two. I have a B25 manifold on, if someone with a B30 manifold on their 2.5 wants to dyno and examine the shape of the curves, I'm all for it.

95blkmax 01-06-2010 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman00 (Post 11132069)
You're a Maxima guy, so I know your thinking about the DE-K's dual manifold design, and the VQ's undersquare design, but I have to say it's not the same with these cars. Like the KA24DE, the B30 has a long stroke, and like the KA when the rev's get high, the harmonics do nasty things.

I'm not sure what could be done to further improve the intake manifold, besides going with a custom one. I even looked at the Newer N series manifolds, and no dice.

I wish I had a B28, it's a square set up that could rev, and have the B30's torque.

heehee, you read my mind. I had a 95 3.0 Maxima that had the crappy USIM, but then I dropped the 3.5 off an 02 Max, which I later gutted that variable IM and made for a power curve that LOVED to be reved out... at the expense of midrange power. When I turbo'd the Maxima I regretted ever having gutted that IM, because even though one could hear that the turbo was "wanting" to spool up from ~2800, the IM's harmonics didnt start the powerband until 4000, which is when the boost would go from 1-2psi and jump to the 9psi I had (I had that dead zone in the powerband due to the gutted IM)... (but that's a story for another forum, it's http://forums.maxima.org on the FI and All Motor sub-forums, if anyone is interested to look at my rigs of a 374whp/374wtq Maxima on boost, and later back to All Motor at 264whp with just air-fuel tuning alone lol[EDIT- by "alone" I mean that's all the tuning done. Timing was off the stock timing map, all possible bolt-ons were present).

Im happy I got my 328i. I really did want a 330i but I think that for my purposes I bought the better starting point. that 2.8L will sound great eventually reving to 7k through a turbine.


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