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-   -   M54B30 harmonics and ATI dampers (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=758308)

F1004fun 04-20-2010 10:53 PM

M54B30 harmonics and ATI dampers
 
After looking into the M54B30's inherent vibration issues, I felt inclined to look for a possible improvement.
The first thing I noticed was that on our stock crankshaft dampers the counter-weight that is isolated in rubber and should be absorbing torsional vibrations is also the main belt pulley. How can something that should be allowed to absorb vibrations work properly when it is constantly being tugged on by the belt and all the accessories.
ATI solves this problem by having the pulleys mounted solid to the hub and allowing a weighted ring to float in 8 rubber o-rings and actually do it's job.

I have to thank Adam (PIE330) for submitting his stock damper to ATI and making my experience a hell of a lot easier. Thanks man!
I just got the schematics today and need to review and sign off on them, I don't think they would like it if I posted them but I will be sure to take pictures of the pulley for you guys. I had it done to factory sizes with the A/C pulley.
I was kinda hoping for some input from Adam to see if he noticed a difference with the new damper installed. I know he has a different setup then stock but none the less how is it?

///Orient3 04-20-2010 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1004fun (Post 11635039)
After looking into the M54B30's inherent vibration issues, I felt inclined to look for a possible improvement.
The first thing I noticed was that on our stock crankshaft dampers the counter-weight that is isolated in rubber and should be absorbing torsional vibrations is also the main belt pulley. How can something that should be allowed to absorb vibrations work properly when it is constantly being tugged on by the belt and all the accessories.
ATI solves this problem by having the pulleys mounted solid to the hub and allowing a weighted ring to float in 8 rubber o-rings and actually do it's job.

I have to thank Adam (PIE330) for submitting his stock damper to ATI and making my experience a hell of a lot easier. Thanks man!
I just got the schematics today and need to review and sign off on them, I don't think they would like it if I posted them but I will be sure to take pictures of the pulley for you guys. I had it done to factory sizes with the A/C pulley.
I was kinda hoping for some input from Adam to see if he noticed a difference with the new damper installed. I know he has a different setup then stock but none the less how is it?

I was about to call ATI and ask for them to make me basically the same thing. Maybe I will get mine faster when I do order because of this, I'd be interested to see pictures when you get it.

PEI330Ci 04-21-2010 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1004fun (Post 11635039)
I have to thank Adam (PEI330Ci) for submitting his stock damper to ATI and making my experience a hell of a lot easier. Thanks man!
I just got the schematics today and need to review and sign off on them, I don't think they would like it if I posted them but I will be sure to take pictures of the pulley for you guys.

It was Mr.Shelley that sent the OEM damper to ATI on my behalf. Thanks John! :D (I still owe you for that)

I don't think ATI would mind, the drawing doesn't show much except outer dimensions. How they build it is another story entirely.

Did I notice a difference? Not in driving the car, but I also didn't experience some of the harmonic failures others have. 156 dyno pulls, and 70+ passes down the drag strip and the engine did fine. I will note that I found my oil pump nut loose when I pulled the oil pan off my engine in September, but I'm beginning to suspect that's more than just a harmonics issue. My next race engine will be dry sump....

McSpeed 04-21-2010 06:23 AM

Wow! This thread answers a lot of my questions.
Thanks for getting the ball rolling on a direct fit replacement, F1004fun - when I began talking to ATI I was surprised to hear they were almost done with the drawings - I was wondering who requested it.
///Orient3, I think the turnaround is 6-9 weeks once the design is approved.
And thanks PEI330Ci and mrshellley for the pioneering on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PEI330Ci (Post 11635692)
Did I notice a difference? Not in driving the car, but I also didn't experience some of the harmonic failures others have. 156 dyno pulls, and 70+ passes down the drag strip and the engine did fine. I will note that I found my oil pump nut loose when I pulled the oil pan off my engine in September, but I'm beginning to suspect that's more than just a harmonics issue. My next race engine will be dry sump....

Your oil pump nut made me hesitate in ordering an ATI damper - as you were the only test case - but I figured your 8K redline was fairly atypical and the fact you were revving that high without other issues says a lot. I think you're right about the pump issue being more complex anyway.

here's a pretty good harmonic damper writeup I came across:
http://www.bhjdynamics.com/downloads...amper_Info.pdf

btw F1004fun, I was told by the author of this^ article that having more inertia tugging at the front of the crank actualy helps with damping. Maybe leaving the A/C running isn't such a bad idea ;)

aggieE46 04-21-2010 07:07 AM

Woot! They need to get it together over at ATI. I've been talking to one guy over there for a bit and he just asked me to send a damper so they'd have one to look at. I'll inform him that it's been done for me. Awesome!!! Can't wait to see what you come up with!

F1004fun 04-21-2010 09:36 AM

Ricky is the fellow that I have been talking to over at ATI and he sounds like a stand up guy.
The main reason for me to swap this my damper out if that the rubber is starting to de-bond a little here and there, I have seen this a lot on the R53 Mini cooper and a few on high revving E46 M3's.
I looked over the drawings last night and they will actually underdrive both belts a very slight amount. The main pulley is about .065" smaller then stock and the A/C pulley is .010" smaller. I am sure that there is a engineer out there who can tell use what this equates to in percentage of underdrive, but I don't think that it is that significant.
Thank again Mr.Shelley and Adam, I am glad I could help out, you all have given me helpful information. I will post pics as soon as I get them.

F1004fun 04-21-2010 10:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I talked with ATI and got their permission to put this version of the drawings on the forum. I asked Ricky about damper service intervals and he said under normal conditions have it re-built every 10 years, 5 years for track use. A re-build costs about $75.
Someone sent me a message for info on my car, it's a 12/01 330Ci with about 120,000 miles on it, and a handful of track days at Thunderhill.

McSpeed 04-21-2010 11:14 PM

Awesome.

More details from Ricky and development man JC Beattie Jr.:
  • this size can handle the damping for up to about 500-550hp at the crank
  • the damping material is Buna rubber which is rated for up to 285 deg F continuous
  • the standard rubber package covers red lines from 6001 to 7500rpm

McSpeed 04-21-2010 11:51 PM

Can anyone confirm that the ATI damper, if it fits one M54 330, would fit all M54 330's?

Realoem lists different vibration damper P/N's before and after 9/2002:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...77&hg=11&fg=18

edit: but the crank and surrounding hardware stay the same over the production years and that's what the damper mounts to....

edit 2: Aha! After 9/2002 production the A/C belt gets 4 ribs instead of 5. Mannnn...
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...63&hg=11&fg=18

aggieE46 04-22-2010 10:09 AM

Make sure they include an install tool that works... Haha. Ask if you can get a group buy going... $750 is a bit steep for me!

McSpeed 04-22-2010 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aggieE46 (Post 11641779)
Make sure they include an install tool that works... Haha. Ask if you can get a group buy going... $750 is a bit steep for me!

Ricky won't help out with tool - I asked. I think these dampers are custom one offs as far as ATI is concerned; plus they don't have a crank to mess with - just a stock damper. We're gonna have to use the hardcore PEI330Ci method. Once they've actually made a damper I think the price goes down to $650 for subsequent buyers but I bet if enough people are interested we could get some real price leverage.

I should have a post-9/2002 damper to send them soon. www.car-parts.com is kind of amazing.

PEI330Ci 04-22-2010 10:05 PM

I can't stress enough the importance of the installation tool. You quite simply can't install the damper without one without damaging the crank.

If I were to build the tool again, I would have both threaded pieces held in a lathe to perfectly line them up, then weld them together. My tool, while very straight to the eye, causes some difficulty when doing the installation.

///Orient3 04-23-2010 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSpeed (Post 11644985)
Ricky won't help out with tool - I asked. I think these dampers are custom one offs as far as ATI is concerned; plus they don't have a crank to mess with - just a stock damper. We're gonna have to use the hardcore PEI330Ci method. Once they've actually made a damper I think the price goes down to $650 for subsequent buyers but I bet if enough people are interested we could get some real price leverage.

I should have a post-9/2002 damper to send them soon. www.car-parts.com is kind of amazing.

I am 30 min away from Baltimore, I wonder what would happen if I could supply a crankshaft (I have one laying around)?

aggieE46 04-23-2010 04:31 PM

:)

You could help make progress for some Fanatics!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///Orient3 (Post 11647577)
I am 30 min away from Baltimore, I wonder what would happen if I could supply a crankshaft (I have one laying around)?


McSpeed 04-27-2010 03:44 PM

does anyone know the thread specs for the bolt at the end of the crankshaft that secures the vibration damper (item#2)?
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...77&hg=11&fg=18

it looks like the same bolt is used on all E36's and all non-M E46's.

(ATI asked - they might be interested in making a thread adapter for the tool :) )

aggieE46 04-27-2010 04:26 PM

Sorry, don't know the size. Glad they're considering making one, though. That'd help a lot.

mrshelley 04-27-2010 05:35 PM

I wish I could use the ATI damper. Right now I'm going through a stock damper every 2 races. It's all because I have to rev my motor beyond what it was designed for and can't justify a $25K Sunbelt motor that would do the same exact thing.

azzy989 04-27-2010 05:50 PM

i guess this is kind of on topic...

i have a stock crank damper for sale from a 2001 330... McSpeed brought it to my attention that there are actually 2 different part numbers for crank dampers. the one i have was discontinued in 2002 or so and there was a new one used for the rest of the e46's... any idea what the differences were between the two?

i never paid close enough attention to the one from my motor (2005). the only other supplement i have for the old damper is a stamp on it that says 275 Hz...

McSpeed 04-27-2010 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azzy989 (Post 11666305)
i guess this is kind of on topic...

i have a stock crank damper for sale from a 2001 330... McSpeed brought it to my attention that there are actually 2 different part numbers for crank dampers. the one i have was discontinued in 2002 or so and there was a new one used for the rest of the e46's... any idea what the differences were between the two?

i never paid close enough attention to the one from my motor (2005). the only other supplement i have for the old damper is a stamp on it that says 275 Hz...

Hi azzy - it seems like it's just that before 9/2002 there was a 5 ribbed AC belt and after 9/2002 there was a 4 ribbed AC belt. - so the pulleys on the vibration damper are different accordingly.

azzy989 04-27-2010 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSpeed (Post 11666321)
Hi azzy - it seems like it's just that before 9/2002 there was a 5 ribbed AC belt and after 9/2002 there was a 4 ribbed AC belt. - so the pulleys on the vibration damper are different accordingly.

AH ok that makes sense. thanks dude :)


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