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-   -   Single mass vs. Dual mass?... (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=889482)

Hecs21 12-02-2011 10:31 PM

Single mass vs. Dual mass?...
 
Here's the question: single mass or dual mass flywheel?

Car: 2001 325i sedan 160k miles

So I've been doing a LOT of research, on here, other forums, and general Internet searches. I've found a lot of info but didn't see a thread specifically for this. Sorry if I missed it.

So basically just looking for advice, experiences, and any general knowledge.

I am having to replace my clutch VERY soon and cost is an issue! I am leaning towards buying an F1 Racing clutch/flywheel kit from Gripforce rigt now b/c the price is right. I have done my research on them and seems other fellow Bimmer owners have had good experiences. That being said, I am aware going to SMF will most likely cause chatter. However I also like the fact that going to a SMF means if I have to do this again later (hopefully Way later) I won't have to buy another FW.

They are offering OE kits with a DMF for a little over $600, a stage 1 with a SMF for a little over $400, or a stage 2 with SMF for under $500.

So in summation, I'm wondering besides the chatter/performance upgrade vs. the stock, smooth drivability argument.....

What are the other pros n cons of this debate?

P.S. Any other experiences with Gripforce would be helpful as well.

Thanks, Dan

darksideracer69 12-02-2011 10:44 PM

single mass flywheel, with a none self adjusting clutch.

Hecs21 12-02-2011 10:52 PM

Thanks for the quick response.

Really? Everything I'm looking at is still self adjusting with a sprung hub. From what I've read the sprung hub helps keep the chafer to minimum.

What is the benefit of non self adjusting & how much more work & what has to be done? I'm not a total noob to cars by any means but not even close to being a mechanic. I'm learning quick though lol.

darksideracer69 12-02-2011 11:02 PM

That would be, or is going to be my choice when I don my clutch. To me, it'll provide more user control, although it may get rid of some comforts.
Sent from my SGH-T959V using Bimmer

Rob43 12-02-2011 11:24 PM

I gave gripforce stage 1 & 2 tremendous consideration when I was looking for a performance upgrade. After lots of research, (this was two years ago) I went with UUC for a little over 1K.

I had read good reviews about the GF, but have also read quite a few bad ones. As already mentioned, the GF uses a 'self adjusting pressure plate" along with a sprung hub clutch. The sprung hub clutch is fine, but if I remember correctly the problem is with the SAPP/SAC. Go to UUC's website, I believe they have a page with plenty of info on the problems of a SAPP/SAC.

Remember, you really only want to do this job one time, because it's a PITA.



Good luck.

fastjasonbmw 12-02-2011 11:46 PM

I recommend a single mass lightened steel flywheel for street (turner or bimmerworld) they are not too light that the idle will not need to be raised, but can induce a lil bit more chatter (at idle), not a big deal. I like single mass flywheels and no clutch delay valve. I would also recommend a ss clutch line. You end up with an easier to modulate clutch pedal that gives more feedback. Pair that with an oem clutch kit, don't forget the release lever, spring clip, pivot pin, throw-out bearing bushing and pilot bearing. Also, make sure your slave cylinder is in good shape. Unless you have more than 300hp, then I would recommend an aftermarket clutch & pressure plate. Stay away from self adjusting, they're junk imo.

FYI...replacing the cluch is not a pita.

Rob43 12-03-2011 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastjasonbmw (Post 13855995)
.......................

FYI...replacing the cluch is not a pita.



LOL, that's good to know. Next time I need to do it I'll let you do it, of course your choice of beer. :rofl:

Hecs21 12-03-2011 12:25 AM

The Gripforce kits I'm looking at do come with a chromolly steel FW. It weighs almost 16lbs, so its not too light. Everything is milled from one piece. I'm running bone stock and have no immediate upgrade plans. Maybe intake or exhaust later down the road.

I'm just trying to find the best option for the best price. I'm on a budget with this job & hopefully a mechanic friend of mine will do it. That will keep my cost down but I'm trying to stay under $600-$700 for the clutch & flywheel. There may be some other issues that will be addressed while this is being done.

Rob43 12-03-2011 12:34 AM

Being on a budget is fine & all, but if the parts you buy are not good quality, well then being on a budget really doesn't matter. Maybe you should reread post #5. I'd really do a little more research before you dive into an Ebay clutch system.




Good luck.

lejeunebimmer 12-03-2011 12:54 AM

I will personally recommend going single mass flywheel with a sprung hub clutch that's not self adjusting.

That said without going to some questionable companies then its going to put you over budget by 300 to 400, unless you happen across some in the f.s. section (please only buy new clutches) the flys are no big deal if used as they're rebuildable.

So honestly with your budget then I think o.e. is going to be the cheapest route if you're willing to risk reusing your stock dual mass flywheel (I'm not endorsing this just saying it has been done.)

To put it in perspective when I first put in my uuc stage 1 flywheel my cost for the new flywheel was 360+548 for the clutch kit. So 908 brand new, as I found a brandnew flywheel in the f.s. section.

That's vs about 300 for a stock self adjusting clutch kit assuming you can decide to risk your reusing your stock dual mass....



Sent from my SPH-M900 using Bimmer

lejeunebimmer 12-03-2011 12:58 AM

Fastjason, your a$$ must be massive for it not to be a
pain.

Its not particularly hard but its not what id call fun by any strech of the imagination.

Or on 2nd thought maybe you're a smaller guy and can get at some of the stuff easier because I'm 6'3" 240lbs and some of those bolts make contort in some unnatural positions to get at.

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Bimmer

Blocked Out 12-03-2011 01:02 AM

I dont understand why you need an aftermarket clutch. Your DMF should be good to accept a second OEM clutch ,well unless its burnt. You said you are on a budget, a new oem clutch is like 150 bucks or so , new oem flywheel is expensive , sure, at 600-700 its not really cheap BUT if you really want a new fly I would strongly advice to buy oem.

You have a 5 speed, so my suggestions for you would be to get an E34 M5 OEM clutch disk and put in on your old DMF, and if your fly is shot then buy an OEM MDF. All this aftermarket crap is just crap thats all it is. UUC makes such sh1t products that I wouldnt put anything they make on my car even if they paid me for it. A quick search reveals more negative feedback then positive, plus I hear enough stories from my friends.

Plus you dont really need a single mass fly, why would you? What for? DMF is a very good flywheel that does a hell of a job and helps our cars be so smooth as thats what BMW is known for. Plus it lasts up to 300k miles, I'd like to see some chinese crap last that long.

If your car is street driven you should not even be thinking about SMF or aftermarket clutches , forget about it , its just a pain in the ass thats not worth the hassle. Plus oem clutch can easily hold 300ft/lbs, E34 M5 clutch (that you should get if you get a bit more money ) can hold 400ft/lbs . With these numbers why even bother looking at some chinese crap.

fastjasonbmw 12-03-2011 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob43 (Post 13856043)
LOL, that's good to know. Next time I need to do it I'll let you do it, of course your choice of beer. :rofl:

Bring a keg of Stone IPA, & I'll get it done...no prob.

fastjasonbmw 12-03-2011 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lejeunebimmer (Post 13856122)
Fastjason, your a$$ must be massive for it not to be a
pain.

Its not particularly hard but its not what id call fun by any strech of the imagination.

Or on 2nd thought maybe you're a smaller guy and can get at some of the stuff easier because I'm 6'3" 240lbs and some of those bolts make contort in some unnatural positions to get at.

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Bimmer

E46 clutch= hours or less, not including smg (adapations/initializations take some time).
They're not that big of a deal.

OP, what do you want out of you clutch project? OEM feel, or what?

lejeunebimmer 12-03-2011 01:27 AM

Blocked Out

Just a quick heads up for you the UUC flywheels are made by Fidanza which is a very reputable aftermarket flywheel manufacturer. As for a lot of their other products being crappy (espically bushings) I won't give you any argument, but I have nothing but praise about the flywheel.

Maybe he wants the car to feel a little faster as to his "need" for a SMF? Its fine either way, single masses were used for years and will cause no ill effects.

And on a side note why would you upgrade to an e34 m5 clutch kit (assuming you were including the pressure plate in your comment) with an otherwise unmodified 325i? Its overkill, and the increased clamping force of the pressure plate is the majority of the pita of driving a car with a SMF and that (or e36 m3 performance) clutch kit.

Blocked Out 12-03-2011 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lejeunebimmer (Post 13856158)
Blocked Out

Just a quick heads up for you the UUC flywheels are made by Fidanza which is a very reputable aftermarket flywheel manufacturer. As for a lot of their other products being crappy (espically bushings) I won't give you any argument, but I have nothing but praise about the flywheel.

Maybe he wants the car to feel a little faster as to his "need" for a SMF? Its fine either way, single masses were used for years and will cause no ill effects.

And on a side note why would you upgrade to an e34 m5 clutch kit (assuming you were including the pressure plate in your comment) with an otherwise unmodified 325i? Its overkill, and the increased clamping force of the pressure plate is the majority of the pita of driving a car with a SMF and that (or e36 m3 performance) clutch kit.

I didnt know who makes their flywheels, but I know that their products simply dont last. 2 of my friends had both their UUC organic clutches fried after a year (roughly 17kmiles) and all I hear on the web is that UUC clutches are crap, I have yet to hear a single positive feedback about UUc clutch that had done over 20-30k miles. I dont know how many miles you have on your clutch or how much hp you have but I would like to know. They might be good in the beginning but I highly doubt they can last.

I have 120kmiles on my original clutch and I beat the hell out of it as soon as I bought this car(40k miles ago), well within reason of course. My friend has 150k miles on his original clutch and it just started to slip a bit but he can still manage a nice tire smoking show . When I hear an aftermarket company making a clutch that lasts this long I'll think about buying one.

Well, I dont now what he really wants so just thought I'd give him an option as I dont think many people even know that you can put an E34 M5 clutch in your 5 speed. I would guess if he is thinking a\bout a SMF and an aftermarket clutch setup he wouldnt mind that, but I gotta say that E34 M5 doesnt have that bad of a clutch. I've driven one this passed summer and the pedal felt just like my E46 did, what was different is the engagement point and travel(but that could've been the pedal itself), but apart from that I didnt notice anything.

lejeunebimmer 12-03-2011 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blocked Out (Post 13856196)
I didnt know who makes their flywheels, but I know that their products simply dont last. 2 of my friends had both their UUC organic clutches fried after a year (roughly 17kmiles) and all I hear on the web is that UUC clutches are crap, I have yet to hear a single positive feedback about UUc clutch that had done over 20-30k miles. I dont know how many miles you have on your clutch or how much hp you have but I would like to know. They might be good in the beginning but I highly doubt they can last.

I have 120kmiles on my original clutch and I beat the hell out of it as soon as I bought this car(40k miles ago), well within reason of course. My friend has 150k miles on his original clutch and it just started to slip a bit but he can still manage a nice tire smoking show . When I hear an aftermarket company making a clutch that lasts this long I'll think about buying one.

Well, I dont now what he really wants so just thought I'd give him an option as I dont think many people even know that you can put an E34 M5 clutch in your 5 speed. I would guess if he is thinking a\bout a SMF and an aftermarket clutch setup he wouldnt mind that, but I gotta say that E34 M5 doesnt have that bad of a clutch. I've driven one this passed summer and the pedal felt just like my E46 did, what was different is the engagement point and travel(but that could've been the pedal itself), but apart from that I didnt notice anything.

Lol. Well first things first My e36M3 sprung hub clutch clutch is out of the car as we speak as I await my new one; it lasted 35k miles with 217rwhp (so 255-265 at the crank depending on how much drive train loss you figure), before the throw out bearing grenaded causing some damage to other components (still plenty of material left though).

That said the clutch I have was a Sachs Performance clutch. Sachs is owned by ZF by the way and also made a lot of other stock parts on our cars. I'll post pics of it up when the new one comes in so you can see that it is from Sachs and not UUC. I forget who made the stock self adjusting one, was it LUK?

I have no doubt that in the e34 M5 the clutch felt great, but I can tell you from experience that the e36 M3 performance clutch and the e34 m5 clutch require quite a bit more effort in an e46, although this can supposedly be remedied by switching an e36m3 slave cylinder (I'm going to guess higher pressure valving).

Blocked Out 12-03-2011 02:23 AM

Ya LUK makes oem clutches for our cars. I believe you,no need for pics ;)

Which one are you ordering right now?

lejeunebimmer 12-03-2011 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blocked Out (Post 13856241)
Ya LUK makes oem clutches for our cars. I believe you,no need for pics ;)

Which one are you ordering right now?

I ordered another Sachs since I was happy with its clamping force and other characteristics plus it still had plenty more like left in the material, but I'll most likely be looking for another type of throw out bearing to put with the pressure plate and flywheel, or maybe just repack it with synthetic grease. As the one I pulled out was in about 13 recoverable pieces and the bearings were all seized and the grease burnt to a crisp.

BTW after doing some research I have found Sachs either option a) Made all the o.e.m. clutched for the B32 powered e36 M3's or
Option B) Is the only company still making them because its all I can find, short of going ACT, HPF etc....

Hecs21 12-03-2011 05:43 AM

I like the back & forth! It's what I was hoping for with this.

My understanding from what I've read is our stock set up is a Sachs clutch kit with a LUK FW. I may be wrong.

As far as what I'm looking for...the best quality to price option. I have also read some bad reviews about UUC being a more difficult than necessary to install and the precision of the manufacturing being lacking.

Not to sound stuborn about what I've already said but I've found a lot o good reviews from our community about the F1- Gripforce kits. I'm not necessarily looking for the added performance but for the price it's a nice bonus.

I've checked some of the sponsor sites and honestly most of the set ups are out of my price range. Like I said one thing I like about going to a SMF is IF the clutch goes again then I don't have to drop another large chunk of cash on a flywheel.

I have found lots of differing opinions on the FW issue so I wanted to put it forth as the main subject to get more feedback that's not as product specific.

I greatly appreciate the responses so far & I hope they will keep coming. I think this thread will be a great tool for anyone debating how to handle this decision.

Thanks guys and keep the comments & suggestions coming as I will be shopping & researching for another week or 2 & I may have overlooked my best option. I'm confident this community will with ou a doubt help stear me the right way.

I thank you all for that!


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