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-   -   A BIG part of the gun problem... (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=966282)

joeski3d 01-18-2013 09:52 AM

A BIG part of the gun problem...
 
More than half of the firearms traced in crimes come from just 1 percent of the nation's licensed gun stores, but federal agents rarely check to make sure these stores are complying with gun laws, a new study finds.

According to data from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, approximately 1 percent of the nation's gun stores are the source of 57 percent of the firearms traced to crimes. It took the Washington-based lobbyist group Americans for Gun Safety six years and three lawsuits to get the names of the gun stores that sell a disproportionate number of the guns traced to crimes.

The group's study found that just 120 dealers in 22 states sold nearly 55,000 guns linked to crime in five years.

read more:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129253&page=1

How Tiahrt Harms Law Enforcement

While some components of the Tiahrt Amendments were improved in 2007 and 2009, several damaging provisions continue to tie the hands of law enforcement.

NICS background check records are still destroyed within 24 hours:
The Tiahrt Amendments require the Justice Department to destroy the record of a buyer whose NICS background check was approved within 24 hours. This makes it harder to catch law-breaking gun dealers who falsify their records, and it makes it more difficult to identify and track straw purchasers who buy guns on behalf of criminals who wouldn't be able to pass a background check.

ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns:

While dealers must notify ATF if they discover that guns from their inventories have been lost or stolen, the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts. ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

State and local authorities are still restricted from using trace data to fully investigate corrupt gun dealers and traffickers:
While the FY 2010 appropriations language restores full access to crime gun trace data for state and local law enforcement, the Tiahrt Amendments continue to restrict what state and local law enforcement can do with trace data they have gathered. For example, state and local law enforcement are still prohibited from using trace data in civil proceedings to suspend or revoke the license of a gun dealer who was caught breaking the law.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...the-boom---atf

mistrzmiasta 01-18-2013 09:56 AM

the BIGGEST gun problem is all the gun threads.

joeski3d 01-18-2013 09:57 AM

Restricting the AFT from doing their F part of the job... yea. A BIG part of the "gun problem" because it restricts their ability to track illegal weapons. If you're a responsible gun owner you should be outraged. We wouldn't be having this discussion if the AFT could do what it was designed to do.

kaput 01-18-2013 10:23 AM

We are outraged... At terms like "illegal weapon" and "clips"/

But seriously, it bothers me, but the fact is that all this gun talk is only hurting the legal guys, and to be honest nothing will change unless every scary black rifle with barrel shrouds and high cap clips are off the streets. Ban "cop killers" and full autos as well.

Maybe we punish those using weapons in a crime more severely than those that do not? Sounds like a solid plan. go after the guys who use the guns to hurt people, not the people that do not. Novel idea, I know.

Act of God 01-18-2013 10:26 AM

"illegal" weapons? lulz

JonJon 01-18-2013 10:30 AM

The biggest problem is that the majority of people are clueless about this stuff.

Quote:

More than half of the firearms traced in crimes come from just 1 percent of the nation's licensed gun stores, but federal agents rarely check to make sure these stores are complying with gun laws, a new study finds.
Think about the above statement.............
Unless people are making their guns from spare parts in their garage, nearly EVERY SINGLE GUN comes from a "licensed gun store". Where else would they come from? You think I can roll up to a Glock factory and grab a gun off the assembly line?

Come on people... THINK! Stop reading this liberal crap and educate yourself. I know you're smarter than to read a headline. Look deeper

joeski3d 01-18-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaput (Post 15072853)
But seriously, it bothers me, but the fact is that all this gun talk is only hurting the legal guys, and to be honest nothing will change unless every scary black rifle with barrel shrouds and high cap clips are off the streets. Ban "cop killers" and full autos as well.

I know the difference and it doesn't take much to illustrate it and get the information out there today. Making guns black doesn't make them deadlier. Besides, it should be well known by most that hand guns are the weapon of choice for criminal activity. If there were fewer illegal guns on the streets it's hard to deny that there would be fewer gun related homicides. Let them find other means of offing the subject of their wrath. Fewer gun related incidents means less scrutiny on the whole gun community. Will homicides go down? Probably not... but it won't be as much a gun issue if the ATF could function properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaput (Post 15072853)
Maybe we punish those using weapons in a crime more severely than those that do not? Sounds like a solid plan. go after the guys who use the guns to hurt people, not the people that do not. Novel idea, I know.

And go after the guys that facilitate the traceless guns as well. People will be far less prone to use something for crime if that something can be traced directly to them.

'busa 01-18-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJon (Post 15072869)
The biggest problem is that the majority of people are clueless about this stuff.

Think about the above statement.............
Unless people are making their guns from spare parts in their garage, nearly EVERY SINGLE GUN comes from a "licensed gun store". Where else would they come from? You think I can roll up to a Glock factory and grab a gun off the assembly line?

Come on people... THINK! Stop reading this liberal crap and educate yourself. I know you're smarter than to read a headline. Look deeper

I don't think you addressed the point of the OP at all.

Here comes Joe with a perfectly reasonable post and all he gets from JJ and the usual suspects is frothing at the mouth. :facepalm: You make me want to take your guns away, JJ!

joeski3d 01-18-2013 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJon (Post 15072869)
The biggest problem is that the majority of people are clueless about this stuff.

Think about the above statement.............
Unless people are making their guns from spare parts in their garage, nearly EVERY SINGLE GUN comes from a "licensed gun store". Where else would they come from? You think I can roll up to a Glock factory and grab a gun off the assembly line?

Come on people... THINK! Stop reading this liberal crap and educate yourself. I know you're smarter than to read a headline. Look deeper

The problem is that the AFT can't actually do anything to trace the weapons anymore. This isn't "liberal crap". This is a massive loophole that needs to be remedied if we wish to preserve our 2nd amendment rights.

kaput 01-18-2013 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeski3d (Post 15072886)
The problem is that the AFT can't actually do anything to trace the weapons anymore. This isn't "liberal crap". This is a massive loophole that needs to be remedied if we wish to preserve our 2nd amendment rights.

What would tracing weapons to the original owner actually do? So a guy uses a gun once owned by you to kill a person you have never met. You reported the gun stolen 4 years ago, and the murder took place in Arizona.

what did the phone call to you actually help to do except allow the police probable cause to enter your home, search it and ask questions?

Serious question here.

joeski3d 01-18-2013 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaput (Post 15072890)
What would tracing weapons to the original owner actually do? So a guy uses a gun once owned by you to kill a person you have never met. You reported the gun stolen 4 years ago, and the murder took place in Arizona.

what did the phone call to you actually help to do except allow the police probable cause to enter your home, search it and ask questions?

Serious question here.

It won't end questionable gun sources for sure... but it would be a great start. And I believe a responsible gun owner would report a stolen gun as soon as the theft was realized.

JonJon 01-18-2013 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'busa (Post 15072880)
I don't think you addressed the point of the OP at all
Here comes Joe with a perfectly reasonable post and all he gets from JJ and the usual suspects is frothing at the mouth.

I addressed it. The story is hyperbole and inaccurately leading people to a false conclusion. Type of gun sales is not the cause of crime nor the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'busa (Post 15072880)
You make me want to take your guns away, JJ!

Well, you're not alone. Millions are with you on that agenda. Come and gettem

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeski3d (Post 15072886)
The problem is that the AFT can't actually do anything to trace the weapons anymore. This isn't "liberal crap". This is a massive loophole that needs to be remedied if we wish to preserve our 2nd amendment rights.

Your statement is a complete oxymoron and frankly hilarious to me. We must further infringe on peoples 2nd Amendment rights IN ORDER TO preserve them? I mean come one... think about that wording.

I mean come on... is this thing on or what? Why does the ATF need to trace anything? They certainly didn't care about tracing all the guns they gave to Mex that ended up killing Americans.

What you call a "loophole" I call "Legal". There are no such things as loopholes nor are there any such things as Assault Weapons. These are politically made up terms to fit an agenda.

kaput 01-18-2013 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeski3d (Post 15072901)
It won't end questionable gun sources for sure... but it would be a great start. And I believe a responsible gun owner would report a stolen gun as soon as the theft was realized.

Sure, but what did it accomplish? You registered the gun, paid the tax to register it, it was stolen, never recovered, the police say "sorry" and then come asking about a dead girl in the desert 4 years later.

What did the registration actually help solve, prevent or make better? The answer is nothing. All it did was create paperwork for people who obey the law. Then it gave the police the ability to find the "owner" because the paper trail led back to you.

I don't see how it is really that helpful. I'll give you an example. If I were going to commit a crime, I would buy another barrel for my pistol. Why? Even with registration, another barrel would rule out my weapon, regardless of the registration, ballistic testing, etc, etc. It is nanny state paperwork.

Registration will solve nothing. If you want one bad enough, you will get one. Background checks are a start. This whole argument is based off of school security and gun free zones, and mental illness. Why are we going after the tool, rather than the problem?

JonJon 01-18-2013 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeski3d (Post 15072901)
It won't end questionable gun sources for sure... but it would be a great start. And I believe a responsible gun owner would report a stolen gun as soon as the theft was realized.

A law making it a CRIME to not report a lost or stolen gun ONLY makes an otherwise law abiding person a criminal. Again......... punishing the innocent people. You are essentially punishing me for someone stealing from me.

What if my property is stolen and I don't notice it. Then I'm arrested for failure to report it. How on earth is that fair or productive?

It's not the governments business what I own or do not own, nor is it their business what is stolen from me or not unless I feel the need to report it.

I agree it is responsible to report a stolen gun, but not to make it a crime to fail to do so.

joeski3d 01-18-2013 10:46 AM

Whatever JonJon. **** it. Guns for everyone! No questions asked. :loco:

badfast 01-18-2013 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJon (Post 15072911)
A law making it a CRIME to not report a lost or stolen gun ONLY makes an otherwise law abiding person a criminal. Again......... punishing the innocent people. You are essentially punishing me for someone stealing from me.

What if my property is stolen and I don't notice it. Then I'm arrested for failure to report it. How on earth is that fair or productive?

It's not the governments business what I own or do not own, nor is it their business what is stolen from me or not unless I feel the need to report it.

Of course. A law abiding citizen is always law abiding till they are not.

You wouldn't notice if any of your guns were stolen/lost/missing?

'busa 01-18-2013 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeski3d (Post 15072915)
Whatever JonJon. **** it. Guns for everyone! No questions asked. :loco:

Doesn't it disillusion you entirely?

joeski3d 01-18-2013 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJon (Post 15072911)
A law making it a CRIME to not report a lost or stolen gun ONLY makes an otherwise law abiding person a criminal. Again......... punishing the innocent people. You are essentially punishing me for someone stealing from me.

What if my property is stolen and I don't notice it. Then I'm arrested for failure to report it. How on earth is that fair or productive?

It's not the governments business what I own or do not own, nor is it their business what is stolen from me or not unless I feel the need to report it.

I agree it is responsible to report a stolen gun, but not to make it a crime to fail to do so.

It's a question of responsibility JJ. If you feel punished because you report property of yours being stolen I honestly don't know what to tell you. That's actually kind of sad.

If you don't notice a gun of yours has gone missing then perhaps you shouldn't be in possession of such a thing.

JonJon 01-18-2013 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badfast (Post 15072921)
Of course. A law abiding citizen is always law abiding till they are not.

You wouldn't notice if any of your guns were stolen/lost/missing?

I have many. I don't check up on them daily. If one is stolen today, a person might not notice until tomorrow. The reality is my guns are very secure because of having kids. Millions of others in different situations (LARGE collections where it would be easy to not notice or unlocked since no kids would be different).
It's very understandable to say a stolen gun might go unnoticed for a day/week for some people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeski3d (Post 15072915)
Whatever JonJon. **** it. Guns for everyone! No questions asked. :loco:

Again, save the drama. I of course don't support firearms in the hands of people that mean to do harm. That said, I am realistic and understand that it's going to happen no matter what we do.

I don't support restricting peoples ability to purchase and own them based out of fear of the above. I fully support private sales and am totally against any sense of registration.

joeski3d 01-18-2013 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'busa (Post 15072922)
Doesn't it disillusion you entirely?

It's a bit mystifying really. People get upset when others suggest we take bigger steps in being responsible for things that others tend to misuse to do great harm to others... then balk at obvious remedies to major gaps in the system.

I just can't find the logic behind JJ's criticism here.


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