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-   -   Why are diesel cars so much more expensive??? (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=971109)

Mark M 02-14-2013 02:34 PM

Why are diesel cars so much more expensive???
 
With a 75mile a day commute I've started to check out diesels as a fuel efficient alternative. Been scoping TDIs and have been researching used 335Ds Both have their share of battle scars....TDIs seem to have issues with their HPFP failing and causing all sorts of additional damage. Where as 335Ds seem to be going through injectors and in some cases even cylinder heads due to carbon buildup.

Diesel powered jettas are easily selling for ~$4k more than their gas counterpart. And diesel bimmers / benzs are also a steep increase in sales price. Why?

I've heard people say you're paying for the technology and that the drivetrain is more expensive....not sure I buy that.

Diesels are iron blocks. Isn't iron cheaper than most special alloys used in gassers?

Diesels have less moving parts so then less to produce and assemble right?

Don't diesels help the manufacturer's CAFE level, so wouldn't the company want to sell more of them...aka not jack up the price?

Don't diesel powertrains have a longer lifespan in production than gasser equivalents? Thus lower longrange development / retooling costs?

What am I missing?

bgsmith 02-14-2013 02:38 PM

What I never understood is why more diesels are not sold here in the US, all these Euro model cars get 50-70 mpg, yet we don't get them.

The answer to my quesiton, and yours, is that the auto industry is controlled by oil company lobbyists who don't want diesels being sold here as it would cut into the oil companies profits.

More expensive diesles means less people will buy them and therefore buy more gas, or better yet don't even give people the option to buy diesel cars.

Just my opinion.

GRIFFIN 02-14-2013 02:39 PM

because you touch yourself.

ChrisRedmon 02-14-2013 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgsmith (Post 15162676)
What I never understood is why more diesels are not sold here in the US, all these Euro model cars get 50-70 mpg, yet we don't get them.

The answer to my quesiton, and yours, is that the auto industry is controlled by oil company lobbyists who don't want diesels being sold here as it would cut into the oil companies profits.

More expensive diesles means less people will buy them and therefore buy more gas, or better yet don't even give people the option to buy diesel cars.

Just my opinion.

Mind = Blown

Grande D 02-14-2013 02:40 PM

I know that in the new common rail diesel engines (CRD) injection pressure is over 2000 bar.

Maybe there are some expensive hurdles surrounding the technology?

The 335d is reliable, and it's also a beast. The evolve tuned ones are over 300rwhp and 450rwtq, with nothing other than a flash.

ChrisRedmon 02-14-2013 02:43 PM

Wow^

I honestly don't know much about diesels, but i do know that some of the work trucks we have here are well past 400k miles with an astonishing amount of engine hours.


Edit: And they have had very VERY hard lives!

Mark M 02-14-2013 02:44 PM

Yeah.....I am really hot for a used well kept 335d. Planning to sell my E46 M3 this spring and bank the cash till I find something that is an ideal fit for me.

ThEnder 02-14-2013 02:54 PM

The NOx and other emissions requirements for diesel in the US are more stringent than Europe which requires US-bound diesels to be fitted with very expensive emissions systems. Couple the increased cost with a low demand for diesel power in the US market and you get a high cost of entry.

Edit: the 335d is an absolute beast. Even stock the thing is fiercely powerful, the pull from the massive wave of torque is pretty intoxicating and even if you flog it all day it does about 20 mpg. If you drive like your pants are not on fire, then mileage is fantastic and the massive torque still makes passing a breeze.

SamDoe1 02-14-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThEnder (Post 15162728)
The NOx and other emissions requirements for diesel in the US are more stringent than Europe which requires US-bound diesels to be fitted with very expensive emissions systems. Couple the increased cost with a low demand for diesel power in the US market and you get a high cost of entry.

^This. Add on the urea injection system and refilling the tank every so often and it becomes more expensive quickly.

I do agree that there are tons of EU only cars that should definitely be imported here but much of the market research done by US automakers show that 'muricans don't particularly like diesels unless they are in massive trucks.

Fergo 02-14-2013 03:04 PM

the torque numbers the 335d can produce are immense, I'm not sure why they are more expensive though.

AmazingNutz 02-14-2013 03:06 PM

VIN
Sent from my G6

Raymond42262 02-14-2013 03:08 PM

It costs more because people are willing to pay more for them.
The people that want one are willing to pay the premium.

Diesels get more mpg and salesmen pitch them as a better value so they cost more. Salesmen suggest that the additional expense for the diesel will be made up in better mileage and they often say that diesel engines last longer.

But they fail to mention that a gas engine will last as long as a diesel with proper maintenance and diesel costs 35 cents more per gallon. And many gas cars get mileage as good or better than many diesels.

But people will pay the premium for the diesel to be different, for the same reason they pay 4k extra for a hybrid or 7k extra for an electric car like a Volt.

evolved 02-14-2013 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark M (Post 15162689)
Yeah.....I am really hot for a used well kept 335d. Planning to sell my E46 M3 this spring and bank the cash till I find something that is an ideal fit for me.

I'm in the market for one (or a 135i, or an E90 M3) and have been researching them, as well and they seem to be more reliable than their gasoline counterparts. I'm sure you're aware, but make sure to aim for a 335d with the sport package, at the very least. Apparently, it makes a gigantic difference.

NFRs2000nyc 02-14-2013 03:25 PM

Thanks Obama! On a serious note, the US does not push clean diesel, but rather hybrids. As a result, manufacturers aren't really pushing diesels here, and charge a premium for them. In Europe, the diesel model is the lowest end model.

evolved 02-14-2013 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc (Post 15162899)
Thanks Obama! On a serious note, the US does not push clean diesel, but rather hybrids. As a result, manufacturers aren't really pushing diesels here, and charge a premium for them. In Europe, the diesel model is the lowest end model.

I think a lot of consumers have the old, dirty, black smokey Mercedes and Volkswagen's of the 70's stuck in their minds, too. To them diesel = dirty.

NFRs2000nyc 02-14-2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolved (Post 15162916)
I think a lot of consumers have the old, dirty, black smokey Mercedes and Volkswagen's of the 70's stuck in their minds, too. To them diesel = dirty.

The funny thing is, those vehicles are STILL running, and even VWs from the 80s were doing 50mpg. Diesel soot is also not "dirty." It's just powdered carbon that settles. Hybrids are far more "filthy" than a diesel.

ROOFLESS 02-14-2013 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark M (Post 15162667)
With a 75mile a day commute I've started to check out diesels as a fuel efficient alternative. Been scoping TDIs and have been researching used 335Ds Both have their share of battle scars....TDIs seem to have issues with their HPFP failing and causing all sorts of additional damage. Where as 335Ds seem to be going through injectors and in some cases even cylinder heads due to carbon buildup.

Diesel powered jettas are easily selling for ~$4k more than their gas counterpart. And diesel bimmers / benzs are also a steep increase in sales price. Why?

I've heard people say you're paying for the technology and that the drivetrain is more expensive....not sure I buy that.

Diesels are iron blocks. Isn't iron cheaper than most special alloys used in gassers?

Diesels have less moving parts so then less to produce and assemble right?

Don't diesels help the manufacturer's CAFE level, so wouldn't the company want to sell more of them...aka not jack up the price?

Don't diesel powertrains have a longer lifespan in production than gasser equivalents? Thus lower longrange development / retooling costs?

What am I missing?

The answer to your question is supply and demand. Manufacturers know that people in the market for a diesel car are very specific in what they need and want. They know that they will pay more to get what they need. Supply in the used market is about 5% compared to the gas engine counterparts. Hence the used car premium.
Quote:

Originally Posted by bgsmith (Post 15162676)
What I never understood is why more diesels are not sold here in the US, all these Euro model cars get 50-70 mpg, yet we don't get them.

The answer to my quesiton, and yours, is that the auto industry is controlled by oil company lobbyists who don't want diesels being sold here as it would cut into the oil companies profits.

More expensive diesles means less people will buy them and therefore buy more gas, or better yet don't even give people the option to buy diesel cars.

Just my opinion.

Its not the oil companies. Diesel fuel (aka Ultra-low-sulphar-diesel) is made from crude oil. So either way they are selling their product. The real issue is emissions. Diesels dont burn as clean as gas engines. The Grand Cherokee used to be available with a 3.0L diesel, but California axed it from its emissions laws and Chrysler decided to scrap the platform altogether.

evolved 02-14-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc (Post 15162951)
The funny thing is, those vehicles are STILL running, and even VWs from the 80s were doing 50mpg. Diesel soot is also not "dirty." It's just powdered carbon that settles. Hybrids are far more "filthy" than a diesel.

lol, you're preaching to the choir.

Mark M 02-14-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc (Post 15162899)
Thanks Obama! On a serious note, the US does not push clean diesel, but rather hybrids. As a result, manufacturers aren't really pushing diesels here, and charge a premium for them. In Europe, the diesel model is the lowest end model.


Right on. Was suprirsed to see a Jetta Hybrid at the Philly Auto show...did not even know VW was in the Hybrid game. Spoke to the salesman. He said the same thing.....While their TDIs are amazingly efficient cars...most mind numb Americans want their gassers and hybrids. So VW made a Hybrid just to stay on par with everyone else.


As for the old 1980s Diesels...yup..they are tanks. Occasionally I pass an old 524td on my morning commute. It may not look pretty by today's standards...but he is still clocking up miles.

NFRs2000nyc 02-14-2013 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolved (Post 15162982)
lol, you're preaching to the choir.

Us wrangler guys are crossing our fingers for Jeep to shove the 3.0CRD into the Wrangler, but those asshats said they are going to wait to see how well the GC sells before they stick it into the wrangler.....I don't know who was responsible for that decision, but it should have been done the other way. The wrangler guys are FAR more interested in a diesel than the GC buyers.


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