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Electrical Gremlins...still after hours of TroubleShooting! Help!!

11K views 36 replies 10 participants last post by  Cvale127 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey guys, so before I begin let me just say that YES...I have read numerous threads and have done alot of research on this issue I started experiencing recently and still have not come up with a solution...

I purchased an installed a GROM IPD3 kit back in early May and everything worked great up until last month. I was coming back from a trip to PA for fathers day, and noticed that my turn signal indicators on the dashboard would not light up...neither would the foglight symbol, However, all the lights would function properly on the outside. SO the first thing I said to myself is maybe the turn signal lever on the steering Column is failing since I've seen that happen to other cars (toyotas) and then the issue is corrected once replaced with a new lever.

Anyway, few days after I returned from my trip I started noticing other weird behavior like the following:

1) Doors not locking with the remote when I exit the car and want to lock it (sometimes it does this, sometimes it functions properly)

2) No seat belt indictator light showing on the cluster (even though I have my seatbelt on lol)

3) Door open indicator light (altough doors were closed)


TWO IMPORTANT THINGS TO NOTE:

**THE GROM kit also stopped working shortly after all these electrical problems started appearing

**EVERYTHING works fine in the car the way it should when the car is NOT RUNNING with the key on 2nd position, INCLUDING THE IPOD ADAPTER!!

ITS WHEN THE CAR IS RUNNING THAT THESE PROBLEMS ARE PRESENT

I know it can't be my battery since its pretty new. An hour ago I just COMPLETELY REMOVED the GROM kit and disconnected the batttery.....15 mins later I reconnected the battery and still NO CHANGE!!! ughhh

So then I disconnected it again and now leaving it off for another 2 hours like some people have mentioned here to see if it works. I hope it does because I really thought it could be the GROM kit since so many people have mentioned similar issues with the DICE kits and then solving the issues by removing the kits.

Any tips or advice you guys have would be much appreciated!! Thanks you!!


3:55PM ****left the battery disconnected for almost 2 hours and still NOTHING*** by the way i forgot to mention the steering wheel controls are not working either. I have to use the volume knob on the radio.

Also checked battery & alternator voltage (before and while the car is running) using the cluster tests and they both check out good.

My next step will be to once again leave the battery disconnected but overnight...doubt it will help but worth a try. Does this sound like a faulty ignition switch to you guys or should I check the fuses inside the DME box? I cant think of anything else.


7/15/13 2:30 PM**** Leaving the battery disconnected overnight did not correct the issue. I removed the radio once again to check the wires and everything still looks good...nothing is pinched etc.....
 
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#2 ·
Not enough concrete info here.

You claim the battery is good because it is only 1 year old or so, battery age means nothing.

Get your battery checked at the local auto parts store, they usually do this for free.

What is your base battery Voltage as shown from the cluster when the car is not running?

What is your base charging Voltage as shown from the cluster when the car is running?

Have you check the body ground on the passenger side below near the motor mount?

Sounds like a C/K buss related problem. How was the Grom unit connected to the car?
 
#3 · (Edited)
I claimed the battery is good based on the tests......Voltage showed 12.7V when the car is not running and 14.1-14.2 while the car is Running. Based on what I've read both of these numbers are ideal.

I haven't checked the body ground on the passenger side. Will look into this.

The GROM kit I purchased was a 'behind the radio' kit. You are required to tap into 3 wires on the factory harness (signal/bus, battery, and ground). I have taken out the radio an additional 2 more times after removing the Grom Unit to make sure there are no cut wires or pinched wires. I made sure to wrap some electrical tape on the 3 wires in the areas that were pierced by the posi-taps.


**7/16/13 11:30am**

-Just got the battery Tested at Autozone even though the instrument cluster test showed proper voltage, and they said it was 100% fully charged and displaying 12.83V. So this proves I was right about the Battery being good

-IDK what the hell happened yesterday while trying to further troubleshoot this problem but now my windows wont go up when I lock the car (Originally they did so I'm guessing the coding was erased somehow??) and now my airbag light is illuminated on the cluster...this light was never on before. :ben:
 
#5 ·
I would disconnect the Grom unit fully if it is still connected to the car, disconnect your negative battery terminal then touch it to the positive terminal for about 15-20 seconds to drain all the capacitors in all the modules, then reconnect the battery and see what happens.

I know you may think touching the battery terminals together sounds crazy, but this is done on most cars to fully discharge all modules in the car.

BTW do you have an OE head unit still?

Battery Voltage and grounding issues cause all sorts of strange problems in these cars. I see your battery has checked out as fine, but then there is the charging system and grounding.

As a test you can use a pair of jumper cables to supplement grounds.

Negative jumpers cable on under hood negative jumper nut on strut tower, other end of negative cable to good solid metal part on engine.

Good luck.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I had already removed the GROM kit completely on Sunday as I stated in my original post, and yes the radio is the original stock business radio.

I will try touching the terminals but I do have to admit this does sound kinda crazy lol...last thing I need is a battery blowing up in my face :yikes:

Thanks for the tips!
 
#9 ·
Yeah I've noticed that most of the time it shows that its the drivers door....but there are times where the passenger side shows open as well. I've never encountered a problem like this with any car lol...im really frustrated at this point.
 
#10 ·
Most interesting. Everything seems to lead towards the can bus. I could be wrong but that piece of electronic is like a computer, in the sense that it tells electrical parts to your car how to act and act right. All the issues you listed I believe can have its roots traced back and end up at the can bus. Not sure what to say as far as solution

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#12 · (Edited)
Most interesting. Everything seems to lead towards the can bus.
The CAN bus is only for the engine and transmission and connects to the instrument cluster as the gateway device. The CAN bus has nothing, NOTHING to do with the steering wheel controls, general module, turn signal indicator lights on the instrument cluster or radio.

Both jfoj and newb hit on this and it's the first thing I thought of when you said you controls on the steering wheel don't work, the steering wheel controls are strictly CAN bus related. The ECU has a CAN bus feed and I suspect the GM5 module also plays a large part in CAN bus functionality although I have never touched the GM5 yet.

In front of the drivers side firewall is the car's ECU. Open that and disconnect/reconnect the wiring modules to re-seat them.

If none of this works, I'd track down the GM5 and do the same with the wiring connectors.
Yes, the ECU (which i like to call DME because that's what BMW calls it) connects into the cars CAN bus, but, it has nothing to do with OPs symptoms so don't both reseating the connectors, it won't help.

The OPs problems are related to the K-bus. It's been discussed many many times here on the forum and jbeurotech posted a good amount if info on how to track down problems with the k-bus so search and read this web page http://bmwgm5.com/e46_k-bus.htm
A few things to check first, connections to the CD changer in the trunk even if you don't have a changer installed. Make sure it's not wet. The k-bus wire is a smaller diameter white wire with red stripe and yellow dashes. If you have a meter measure the voltage of this wire with respect to ground (chassis of the car). It should measure approximately the same as the battery voltage with periodic blips to approximately half battery voltage. When k-bus problems occur this signal will sit substantially below battery voltage.

A lot of people instantly want to blame the general module for k-bus problems, but, it is rarely the cause. If you want to prove it to yourself completely disconnect the general module by removing the three connectors from the module and test the turn signals and fog lights. If the problem is still there then the general module is definitely not the problem. Keep in mind that there can be up to 14 different modules on the K-bus (instrument cluster, airbag module, radio, cd changer, sunroof module, rain sensing wiper module, HVAC control module, steering wheel button module w/volute spring, immobilizer module aka EWS, driver seat memory control module, driver side and passenger side mirror module and light control module to name the major ones.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Both jfoj and newb hit on this and it's the first thing I thought of when you said you controls on the steering wheel don't work, the steering wheel controls are bus related. The ECU has a CAN bus feed and I suspect the GM5 module also plays a large part in bus functionality although I have never touched the GM5 yet.

Has your car been in/around/near a lot of water/rain/puddles lately?

As jfoj mentioned ground on these cars can wreak havoc on these systems when there is a fault. Make sure the ground at the back of the car is clean and tight where it connects to the chassis. Make sure the ground on firewall to the engine is clean and tight. There is also a ground buss behind the glove box behind the relay panel. It has about five or six blue w/yellow stripe wires all attached together.

In front of the drivers side firewall is the car's ECU. Open that and disconnect/reconnect the wiring modules to re-seat them.

If none of this works, I'd track down the GM5 and do the same with the wiring connectors.

If it still doesn't work :hmm: good puzzle.

Edit: corrected CAN bus reference
 
#17 ·
If this was a problem caused by any of the grounds on the car wouldn't i experience trouble starting the car or difficulty getting the battery charged? The battery was 100% charged when i took it out the car and got it tested at autozone.

The only thing i can think of that could have possibly damaged a ground is an engine clean i did back in April-May. I had replaced a badly leakong oil filter housing gasket in Febuary or March. A few weeks later when it got warmer out i sprayed some safe engine degreaser (none solvent based) and then hosed down the engine (making sure to cover intake throttle body and all wires i saw exposed in the engine ba with plastic bags). I also ran the engine after hosing it down till it was dry. I dont recall spraying the firewall with water....but i did spray underneath the car eith the splash guard taken out because their was alot of oil residue on those hoses by the steering rack.

Wouldn't have the problem started right away though if one of these grounds was damaged during this engine clean?


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#28 ·
... and this "I see your battery has checked out as fine, but then there is the charging system and grounding."

I don't think battery and the ground strap between engine and chassis is a suspect -- if it's not solid tight, it never have enough juice to crank the engine with starter.


Sapote
 
#18 ·
Just for me, go back and check on your battery again. If it's older than say 4-5 years, don't mess with it, just get a new one.

You can have the voltage but not the amps. You know, I drove almost 40 miles with a dead alternator...at night, with headlights on (should've turned them off and I bet I would have gone farther by a good bit!) You need both voltage and amps.

And, +1 with the 'check the cables on bat terminals are tight, not just tightened.'

Then, my guess is ignition switch...almost every ignition switch failure thread that I've read includes issues at steering wheel and the radio.

...and then, if it is a weak bat, maybe your electronic thingy wasn't installed right...as in, could it be drawing power and draining your bat? Just musing.

Final point is to be careful about spending money and time hunting an odd electrical problem before you've 'really' verified that you don't just have the most common of problems...weak/dead bat.

BTW, next week in OT, I'll be doing a thread on personal grooming and treating the ladies right. You don't want to miss it. Sign up in advance!
 
#22 · (Edited)
As I stated before, the battery is not even 2 years old and I already properly tested it and it is 100% fully functional, as well as the alternator, so I can rule both of those out.

I have also heard alot of people complain about similar issues with a faulty ignition switch, however, most of those people would have trouble starting their cars and their radio would not function properly as you mentioned. I'm not experiencing NEITHER of these 2 issues, my radio is 100% fully functional besides the display being dim.

Treating the ladies right huh? Sometimes they don't deserve that :lmao:




There is not quick way of figuring out k-bus problems. There is no magic software. There is no short cut. You either get lucky or you buckle down and follow jeurotech's instructions and figure it out. CAN timeout was probably a DME fault code and has nothing to do with your K-bus problem. You might have noticed when scanning the car with a BMW specific scanner (not generic OBD-II) that most of the modules are unreadable, no communication. Only modules that you can read are the DME, transmission, ABS and IKE. The other modules not readable of course is a typical k-bus problem.


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I do believe I saw many things that showed unreadable. I spoke to a technician at a shop in my area which is BMW certified, and explained many of these symptoms I'm having to him. He doesn't think it can be the LCM (light control module) since ALL my exterior lights do function properly...and I do agree since I have read that the people who have had faulty LCM's experience problems where 1 headlight, or both, will not turn on, and same goes for fogs.


He is so convinced that it has to be the Body Control Module (or as we would say GM5), especially based on what I told him has happened with the door locks, how the car sometimes shows open doors altough they are closed, and the fact that all my exterior lights do work altough the cluster does not show signal indicator or foglight symbol. He also agreed with me on the theory that perhaps the ipod kit I removed eventually caused a short over time (used it less than 2 full months before I began experiencing these problems) and screwed up a module.


He is willing to take a look at the car for free on Tuesday (since I'm a repeat customer and have taken my RX8 their in the past), but I'm curious about disconnecting the plugs on the GM5 module Sunday morning to see what happens. So if I disconnect all 3 plus and the problems are GONE (i.e turning signal indicators on cluster, foglight symbol etc...) than that would mean that module IS in fact faulty correct?


If this fails I will take the KBUS comb out and play the game of process of elimination with those wires. The diagram in that link you provided shows in what order the KBUS wires inside the comb are in right? So from my understanding when i disconnect them one by one(after determining that the BUS is in fact below 12V) until i finally notice the voltage on the BUS shoot back up to the proper 12V.......then I can go ahead and put wires back ON until I do find the faulty one/module, and then go to this diagram to match that wire with its corresponding module correct?

These next 2 questions might seem obvious but just want to be sure...I should turn the car ON while removing these wires one by one right? Since the Problems with the instrument cluster I'm having appear only when the car is running...

and it would definitely be wise to label these wires with tape and number since I'm guessing it matters what order you put them back in right?

Thanks alot scottjoh!! I really appreciate the time your taking to help me out man.
 
#20 · (Edited)
BTW some things I forgot to add are that:

1)The A/C works well when it feels like it (since this problem started). One day it will blow Ice cold air and other days it will blow hot as if the there were no freon left in the system. I've been driving around in this heatwave for the past 2 days with NO A/C:banghead:

2) Passenger Mirror no longer goes down when in Reverse...HOWEVER both mirros still can be moved with the switch joystick.


These next 2 JUST STARTED on SUNDAY while trouble shooting and disconnecting the battery a few more times...Idk what the hell happened.


3) Windows no longer go up when I press the Lock button on the remote (like i used to be able to before)

4) Windows STILL go down with the unlock button, HOWEVER, the sunroof remains closed! Everything used to open before.


Here is a pic of what James (Hollywood516) wrote down that stood out to us while scanning my car yesterday with PASoft:
 

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#21 · (Edited)
BTW some things I forgot to add

2) Passenger Mirror no longer goes down when in Reverse...HOWEVER both mirros still can be moved with the switch joystick.

3) Windows no longer go up when I press the Lock button on the remote (like i used to be able to before)

4) Windows STILL go down with the unlock button, HOWEVER, the sunroof remains closed! Everything used to open before.


Here is a pic of what James (Hollywood516) wrote down that stood out to us while scanning my car yesterday with PASoft:
Mirror doesn't go down when shifting to reverse because general module gets information on what gear you're in over the k-bus. Manual mirror control goes direct.

Sunroof doesn't open because general modules tells the sunroof module to open over the k-bus.

Looking at the list if fault I am not surprised to see a K-bus fault from the instrument cluster.
 
#26 · (Edited)
OP, FYI Scottjoh is the GM5/Kbus guru.

He is rarely wrong, but I think you need to do a bit more research and trouble shooting to get a better idea of what is going on. As he indicated there are a lot of module that are connected to the Kbus and any one of these modules or could be causing havoc on the Kbus line.

Something may have been zapped on the Kbus line due to the installation of the Grom unit?

Seat belt warning light may be a problem with the seat belt buckle or wiring. You may want to try an spoof the seat belt sensor.

Not sure this is pertinent, but might be worth a check??

And I am not making this story up!!!!

I was working on a car at one point that had a problem with the airbag light that came on. The airbag code was for a seat back sensor. Upon inspection it turned out that a tomato had rolled under the seat and come in contact with the large connector for the seat controls and the tomato had a break in the skin right at the connector as the edge pierced it and cause the acidic juice from the tomato to enter the connector. The acidic juice along with Voltage corroded and actually at up some of the terminals in the connector.

So do not rule out unusual things, moisture, corrosion and so forth. Sometimes disconnecting connects and inspecting things is a cheap and easy way to start. Not 100% sure, but I believe the seat memory module is likely connected to the Kbus?? So check this area to be 100% sure everything looks clean.
 
#29 ·
Results after scanning with PA Soft...

So I wanted to share with you guys what I noticed when I finally got my PA Soft and scanned the car without reconnecting that BUS wire i had left DISCONNECTED last week. I did multiple scans (1st with the key in position 1), and then I did some more scans with the key in position 2.

Here are the errors that stood out to me at first during the 1st scan:

1)IKE Instrument Cluster
BE[190]Data-filing diference to central light module (LCM)
87[135]Body-Bus (K-BUS)

*However both were yellowing showing the fault was currently not present

2)TEL Car Telephone
6E[110] E-Call LED not connected (this was yellow so not currently present)

Shadow:
11[017] Ibus access error (this was also yellow)
15[012] NAD Transceiver failure (THIS WAS RED, which meant the fault was currently present)

3) EWS Electronic Car Immobilizer

Shadow:
04[004] Passengers Airbag stage 1, resistance too high


I didn't think much of these except for that red NAD transceiver fault code, so I went ahead and tried clearing them, and they did clear.

**BTW all of the modules on page 2 or 3 were 'not found' with the exception of the 1)Sliding/Tilting Sunroof (SHD) and 2)Seat memory, Driver (SMF).


When I put the key in Position 2...some errors that didn't appear before, did now.

Please look at the Pics:
1)Pic 1 are of 5 ABS errors that I couldn't take off, however, they are yellow. Should I be concerned with these?

2)Pic 2 are of 2 error codes in the LEW (Steering Angle Sensor) that concerned me because they were showing as Faults currently present. HOWEVER, i was able to clear these and they didn't show up anymore on my final scan.

3)Pic 3 is of the FINAL scan I performed after clearing most of the codes I previously had. The 2 LCM errors I'm not concerned about (High Beams L & R) because I know they are for 2 LED bulbs I installed in the DRL's a few weeks ago. BUT you can see that the 5 error codes under ABS, and that air bag error under SRS are still there. Should I be concerned even though they are yellow and not "currently present"?

**The module that stood out to me the most because it kept saying "no data" everytime I scanned the car over and over is the MFL (Multi-Function steering wheel), could this be my problem?

I feel that I'm very close to figuring out which module is faulty, but I still could use some help from you experts!! Thanks in advance!!:thumbsup:
 

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#30 ·
Hm... I could be wrong but I think perhaps its in the coding of your gm module or ike is where your problem lies. However, this problem I do not believe can be fully solved with pa soft. Ncs expert or whatever those other inferior programs are called will be needed.

Example, using ncs expert, I can do odd things like dictate whether the trunk lid indicator on my dash turn off when its closed, or remain lit no matter what (why would they even put that in there?) I guess I can spend a few minutes to use ncsexpert to attempt and make my seat belt light stay on regardless. Let me get back to you.

Oh yeah, so the seat belt light stays on even if seat belt is on?
 
#31 ·
Yes, the seat belt light used to remain on even with my seat belt on......but disconnecting that 1 KBUS wire that i mentioned earlier from the comb eliminated this issue. Now it functions normally and is only on when the seat belt is off.


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#35 ·
I "sorta" solved my issue ...K bus issues

I have been having a lot of the same issues with volume control, blinker indicators, seat belt light, sunroof inop, key beeper, ...
.I took the steering colume covers off, wiggled all the wiring, nothing really happened. Read here that the i pod wiring may be the issue. R&R ed the radio and I wiggled the main harness behind the radio and things came back to life, "EXCEPT" the sunroof operation. Read in manual that I should/would have to re-initiate the sunroof, but have been unable to figure that one out, the tilt up operation works, but NOT the slide back oreration. So .... still searching. Any comments or suggestions where to look next ? Thanks ....
 
#36 ·
Does the sunshade close all the way? Even if it did, could be that a component that's part of your sunroof system is laying on the track and is blocking it's path.
 
#37 ·
UPDATE

2 weeks ago I took the car to a BMW tech for an oil change and re-scanned my car with his computer. The only module that would NOT respond to a diagnostic request (WITH THE 1 KBUS WIRE I HAD REMOVED) was the Body Module (ZKE). So we were so sure that that 1 disconnected KBUS wire had to lead to the GM5 module. By the way, a month before he had removed my cluster and installed it on another E46 and he said it was functioning fine....he also did the same with my GM5.

But anyway...I decided I would buy a used GM5 on ebay and see if i got lucky. The next day I pulled out my GM5 to get the parts numbers so I could order the EXACT same one for my car. When I re-installed in...my windows would no longer go up and down with the buttons inside, and the wipers would not work either. Any ideas why this happened!!??? Could it be because I pulled out the module without disconnecting the battery?

When I received the used GM5 the other day that I ordered on ebay...I re-connected that KBUS wire that I have been driving without these past 6 months, and installed the new GM5. NO LUCK!!!!! :censor: All my problems are still there!....and now even worse since in the process of getting the part numbers my windows will not go up and down and I cannot use the wipers on a rainy day.

This is really frustrating, I'm back to square one. The only other thing I can think of now is to replace the module for the MFL (which I believe is the volute/clock spring behing the steering wheel) since it shows "not found" when I scan with PA SOFT?

BTW, when I tried scanning the car once again with the KBUS wire and GM5 I ordered installed, and it wouldn't even connect to the car. It would say "connection error with LCM". I'm really baffled by this


Any ideas guys?? Scott?? I'm tired of driving around like this...been 6 months now! I had a guy interested in purchasing the car and wanted to see it tommorow....but I'm obviously not going to show it to anyone until I solve this problem.

Thanks in advance!!
 
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