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E46 2800 RPM Stutter Club

157K views 454 replies 117 participants last post by  skiboarder119 
#1 · (Edited)
E46 2800 RPM Stutter Club [DME FLASHED - PROBLEM SOLVED]

Step right up, ladies and gentlemen! Come one, come all, and welcome to the 2800 RPM Stutter Club.

The purpose of this thread is to collect as much information as possible regarding troubleshooting and resolving the issue of hesitation from 2500-3000 RPMs, sometimes accompanied by a SES.

Member Status:

TerraPhantm - 2003 330i, Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
mjdehlin - 2004 325i, Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
MrMaico - 2004 330ci, Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
GriswaldE46 - 2004 330ci, Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
Haverstock - 2004 330ci, Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
coldiguana - 2004 330i, Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
RF330i - 2004 330i, Flashed DME, didn't solve it. Replaced O2 sensor, Problem Solved.

PainBreak 2004 325i Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
wildirish317 Flashed DME, Problem Solved.
Jchimbolo - 2003 325ci (Currently Unsolved)
Mctronics - (No Vehicle Listed) Vanos Seals, Rattle Kit, VCG, Fuel Filter, Crank Position Sensor, DISA, Valve Cover Gasket, Plugs, All Plumbing: Intake, Vacuum, Oil Separator, Flashed DME, (Car also dies. May not be same issue.) Problem Still Exists
jlboygenius (Potentially Unsolved?)
SATX_E46
a32axo
Ewalaa
murac14
Drewfus2101
BADCLOWN
rossisboss
rendered
hobieboy
allpick
dyintorace
kbps3
Deschodt
wolfe
Coldiguana
RhFactorUs
Shftat9k
grazpiano
shynebrite
mm347
Jblack4083
x13atma17x
kwc

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DME FLASH FIXED MY PROBLEM
If you car stutters, flash the DME.
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#3 ·
The problem for the ZHP "stutter problem" was two main issues: DISA and KNOCK SENSOR.

The older DISA would make a loud noise when the DISA flap gets activated. As a result, the knock sensor would retard the timing because it thinks there was actual engine knock. the solution that BMW came out with was to update the DME and to release a different DISA.

I hope this helps. good luck!
 
#4 ·
The problem for the ZHP "stutter problem" was two main issues: DISA and KNOCK SENSOR.

The older DISA would make a loud noise when the DISA flap gets activated. As a result, the knock sensor would retard the timing because it thinks there was actual engine knock. the solution that BMW came out with was to update the DME and to release a different DISA.
^+1, someone has been doing their homework!!


To the OP:

If you have any type of OBD monitoring software, all you need to do is monitor/record the ignition timing when the problem happens and see if you have any specific timing related issues. I resolved a LONG standing issue on my M5 by doing this and found out Dinan does not know how to tune software!

Just BE CAREFUL as if you lean out, you may end up with knocking and have timing retard.

But if the DISA is even in quetion, just unplug it and it should clear this as an even likely source.

I commented in quite some detail in my other thread where you asked questions.

I do not think a software fix is in the cards for your car?
 
#8 · (Edited)
Sorry, this wasn't really a thread to request help, so much as it was a thread to document this issue. It's an extremely, extremely specific problem, which does not point to the fix of "throw parts at it until it goes away." Shotgun troubleshooting doesn't satisfy my desire to pinpoint exactly what's wrong, when so many others have had the exact same issue.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm holding out hope there's a "software fix" for my car. It's just where my research has taken me. As you can see above, only one other contributor to this thread thus has experienced the exact same issue, and it was fixed via a code update to the DME. We're batting 1000 on software right now, sample rate be damned! :) I will modify the OP to reflect their resolution, however.

I have spent an exorbitant amount of time researching this particular issue, and I have yet to see someone fix it by doing anything with the DISA. There are a ton of posts that say, "Oh, this is classic bad DISA behavior!" but I haven't run across any that have said, "My car stutters between 2500 and 3000, on a consistent basis, and by replacing the DISA it is fixed." You know what I have found in my research? "I have replaced the DISA, but the car exhibits the same behavior."

I read up on the DISA issue that caused the 4000 RPM "dip" for the ZHP. Essentially, when the butterfly opened, it was noisy and triggered the knock sensor, which momentarily retarded the timing. That's not the same as the issue at ~2800 RPMs--it's two totally separate things.

Furthermore, jfoj...I am very appreciative of your help. You're extremely knowledgeable, and I plan to continue the OBD monitoring discussion in the other thread. What I'd like to see from this thread is a response from as many people listed in the OP as possible, along with anyone else currently experiencing this issue. And if anyone actually fixed it, what eventually did, or didn't resolve this extremely specific issue.
 
#9 ·
Just tossing this out there:
'04 330Ci, so it's not an early model.

I did get DISA codes for a while after the dealer replaced the wiring harness(which was only necessary because they wanted to get some money from warranty work. FSR went bad and killed the battery. I have no idea how they thought it was a wiring harness issue). I noticed that there was a disconnected plug wire near the intake, I reconnected it and never saw the issue again.

Glad to see there are others with this issue. I'll have to remember to do some more testing. see if it happens when cold or warm or both. I'll also have to try it in a high gear, see if it's a quick thing that happens or something that happens over a rpm range. Maybe even disconnect the DISA and see if it changes anything.
 
#10 ·
PainBreak,

A few questions that may be relevant?

What transmission do you and all the other owners have, I assume this problem only manifests itself with manual transmission cars?

Also explain what gear you are typically in and what speed the car is typically traveling?

I will relate a situation that I fought with on a very different BMW without a DISA for some time. I spent an awful lot of money and time on the issue to find out there was a big problem with the timing maps for the car. I believe these may have been tweaked timing maps, but not 100% sure if they were bone stock. Note my car has a 6 speed manual transmission.

What I found was between 1500-3000 RPM there was a chuggle, misfire to stutter as you mention. There were NEVER any misfire codes and as soon as the engine spun past 3k RPM problem was GONE.

So if you were driving spirited where you spun the motor up in 1st gear and kept on getting into it, the engine was ALWAYS above 3k RPM and you would never experience the problem.

But it you were tooling around town and eased into the throttle and maybe had a light incline you would experience this chuggle. Down shift 1 gear, engine is above 3k RPM, problem gone, however, if you continued to lay into the throttle the chuggle/bucking would get worse as you approached 2800-3000 RPM. Car would actually loose power.

I was able to find a specific road with a minor incline where I could literally force the problem to occur and occur bad if I was lugging the engine a bit in say 5-6th gear around 2200 RPM.

I finally figured out the issue using a cheap, generic $30 OBD program and I was able to record the ignition timing. The ignition timing was retarding to as low a -5 degrees Before Top Dead Center. This is actually about as low as the timing would go and is really a fail safe value that was used.

The chuggle/misfiring/shuddering I was feeling was not a misfire at all, it was the DME jumping between timing maps reducing power and then when the timing jumps at times as much as 20+ degrees, these were actually power pulses I was feeling when the timing is advancing back from a heavily retarded state.

It was not the DME registering knock sensors and retarding the timing as the knock sensors will only take about 5-6 degrees of timing away, not as I was seeing at times as much as 25-30 degrees of ignition timing being removed. If you take 25-30 degrees of timing advance away in a single instance, you will the engines ability to produce power and it is VERY noticeable.

Very long story short, my issue was resolved with a different DME tune, but it was not a BMW DME tune as I cannot run a stock BMW tune in the car I had issues with.

I speculate to some extent that what I was suffering from was a bad BMW timing map that may have been slightly altered by a tuner at one point that made the issue much worse and more noticeable??

My current tune also cleaned up a lot of other issue like coast down fuel cut off and 2nd gear throttle sensitivity.

My suggestion is to map out your engine RPM, Throttle Position, Ignition Timing and Coolant temp, go for a drive and see if you can catch your problem with the software. If your ignition timing is jumping around a lot, you then need to figure out if you have a bad timing map or a leaning problem causing the knock sensors to retard the timing. But timing retarding should not be really noticeable under most circumstances.

This may not be your issue, but is an easy issue to check and rule either in or out as a culprit.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I have an automatic transmission. The same issue would be much easier to detect with a manual. This happens right before the "kickdown" point, around 80% throttle, at approximately 70-75mph. Now that I know what I'm looking for, though, I can feel it in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears if I shift "manually."

Driving around town, you'd almost never notice it. On the highway, using cruise control, you never notice it, because it kicks down before it stutters. I suspect most automatic drivers would not even notice it.

It's a really small issue, but it's annoying. Now that I know it's there, like a loose tooth, I can't help but poke at it. I can make it happen every time I drive, or if I change my driving habits slightly, nobody would ever know it's an issue.

I have data logged of all of this, actually. My engine temperature is pretty stable, at around 200F, as I've monitored it pretty religiously via Torque after recently replacing the thermostat, lower radiator hose, and temp sensor.

The part you mention about finding a road with long incline...that's how I can make this happen, religiously. Anywhere from about 2500 to right before 3000, at about 80% throttle, in 5th gear, 70-75mph, trying to accelerate it will shudder/stutter/hesitate in a repetitive pattern. If I give it less throttle, I decelerate. If I give it more throttle, it kicks down. If it goes over 3000 RPMs, everything's hunky dory.

I've read through your other posts regarding the timing issue you resolved, and found it very interesting. I'm going to edit this post with some data from when it was stuttering, and we'll see what the timing advance looks like. I don't have the coolant temp logged in this one, but I am 99.999% confident it's fine, since I watch it like a hawk in Torque, and after the new thermostat went in, it's been operating properly.

The stutter is highlighted in red.

 
#14 ·
I am a bit confused about about a few things based upon your graphs.

Maybe you can add more detail for me about what is going on.

Assume your horizontal axis scale is in minutes?

Anyway around 20 on the horizontal axis your throttle position crashed to 0 and stayed there. Did you back off the throttle and coast down a long grade? Or is something else going on with the throttle position data as the engine RPM never seemed to drop below about 2300 RPM??

Between 16-21 on the horizontal axis for Ignition Timing you had some dips.

Can you regraph the Ignition Timing for this time frame with a total scale of about 10 degrees? I want to see how much and how rapidly your timing is dipping. This timing dip may be justified, but it may also be what you are feeling with the power instability.

Can you rescale Bank 2 Fuel Trim to be +/- 20 even if it pops off scale briefly, I want to compare the slope to Bank 1 on the same scale.

I may also need to see your long term fuel trims as well.

Note sure the Fuel Trims look correct?

Need to get a better look at the O2 sensors and make sure things are plugged into the proper bank and there is not a lazy sensor.

I find it best to graph O2 sensor Voltages from a cold start so you can see the baseline O2 sensor Voltage and the warm up cycle into the switching cycle.

See what you can do with O2 sensor graphs. The O2 sensors can usually be ruled in or out as a problem pretty easily with graphing from a cold start. Unfortunately MAF testing is much more difficult and subjective.

Once we know the O2 sensors are behaving as expected, then we can move onto other areas.
 
#15 ·
It's in seconds, not minutes. That would be some extremely poor acceleration if, at 75% throttle, I was only able to gain 10MPH over the course of 10 minutes. :rofl: I'm guessing they'll make a little more sense to you now. :)

Here's what this graph shows... I'm driving down the highway, a little more than 60MPH. I push on the throttle to increase speed to 75MPH without kicking it into passing gear. As we get to about the 12 second mark, the stuttering begins, and lasts about 7 seconds before I start to gain on traffic and let off the throttle and decelerate.

On rescaling the timing advance, I don't think that's going to get us anything. It's at 21 degrees to start, and fluctuates a little between 19.5 and 21 degrees during the increased throttle application. It increases to 29.5 for a while, while there's 0 throttle applied. As there's no huge downward fluctuation, it kind of steers me away from the knock sensor being involved at all.

The fuel trims look like the most suspect item here, so figuring out why they're fluctuating wildly would likely help.

The post-cat O2 sensors seem to operate normally. They fluctuate between .1 and .7 and move around quite a bit. Upon startup they show .45, and in a short time, they warm up, dip down in voltage, and slowly climb back up, until they're really nice and warm, and then the voltages seem to correspond with the short term fuel trims I monitor.

However, with Torque Pro, I still do not get any data from my my precat O2 sensors. It's not stuck at a voltage, it's like they aren't a module that exists in the OBD2 data. It doesn't light up green, as something that's ever sent data. It's just...nothing. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, it could be a bug with Torque or my ELM327 device. Or, it could be the source of all of my woes. Who knows?

Out of curiosity, is English your native tongue?
 
#16 · (Edited)
Thanks for the clarification of the data.

Timing changes are negligible, possibly knock sensor(s) triggering slight retard on timing?

Fuel trims are a bit wacky. Would like to see what the pre Cat O2 sensors are doing.

O2 baseline Voltage is 0.45 Volts when cold/inactive, this is as expected.

Not sure why you are not picking up pre Cat O2 sensors? Do you have another car you can try ELM327/Torque Pro on? Assume you also have the Torque Pro add-ons as well?

If your pre-cat O2 are original, suggest replacing just because, as they are considered consumable anyway. Usual replacement mileage is suggested at 100k, but I replace at 75k as most drivers in urban areas have engine idling for long periods in traffic. Bosch are usually about $50 on Amazon, I have good luck with all the Bosch I have purchased from Amazon.

Sorry if my English is questionable, it is my native tongue. Maybe it is Virginia coming through?

I just multitask quite a bit as I do a lot of network and remote support and I have a lot of distractions with kids and other things, so many times I am in and out both physically and mentally!

I try to contribute where I can.
 
#19 ·
Was experiencing exactly as detailed above, if going up uphill in high gears there was a very pronounced lugging/hesitation of the engine. It was very annoying and after researching here I had the DME reflashed at the dealer. I thought it worked but realized it was still there after hitting one stretch of road I regularly travel that always triggers it. It wasn't as bad as before, but gradually got worse.

I took it back to the dealer and it was diagnosed with a bad pre-cat O2 sensor. Replaced that and problem solved, engine felt noticeably stronger in that RPM range. Now? I wouldn't say the issue is back, but there's a definite hint of sluggishness at 2,800 - doesn't do the pronounced lugging but just seems to hang there slightly instead of pulling through the range evenly.
 
#21 ·
Thanks! I don't have a Droid, so I'll try the Elmscan to see what's going on. Although it's annoying, I can always "drive around" it by keeping a light foot if I'm not in a hurry, or mashing the pedal if I am. I do, however, spend a lot of time in this rpm band driving around town.
 
#26 ·
I'm not ready to draw any solid conclusions as of yet. I'm positive my car has an unmetered leak somewhere, else the fuel trims wouldn't be pegging out during idle. I just want to make sure we have as much documentation on common issues as possible, as these cars are aging, and more and more people will be experiencing the same issues.
 
#27 ·
Here is the problem shown on the dyno.

Mine is the Mustang load dyno, the other doesn't have the problem and is smooth.

On my car, with the data logger I can see the timing change when this event occurs. Air fuel changes also. I can smooth it out with Unichip but it is just a band aid for the OEM software.
 

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#28 ·
So this gets a bit interesting on how to figure out for sure what is going on.

Is the timing dropping back due to being triggered by the knock sensors or is there a problem with the engine timing map(s)?

A few options would be the following:

1. Disconnect the knock sensors and see what happens, this may be counter productive as the DME may drop back to a safety ignition mode?
2. Try just for kicks to unplug the DISA and see what if anything happens. THis is easy as everyone that has an issue can take 5 minutes and try this. Either there will be no change or there will be an improvement. Either answer is fine.
3. A bit more difficult to do, if unplugging the knock sensors puts the engine into a safe timing map, you can remove the knock sensors from the engine wrap them in a towel, bubble wrap or something to isolate the knock sensors. This will allow anyone to confirm if the knock sensors are actually getting triggered for some reason.
4. For those without Dyno access an option may be able to graph RPM and Timing. Watch the RPM closely and see if it dips down.

If it is determined that the knock sensors are picking up some form of acoustical noise then this is where the problem starts. Any mechanical slop can trigger knock sensors, it could be something like a dual mass flywheel, a belt tensioner of maybe even the VANOS rattling at some resonance frequency??

I have even seen fan belts vibrating causing knock sensors to be triggered, non BMW!

So time to gather more data and experiment a bit.

One question that comes to mind was this problem with these cars since new, has something worn and is this issue only showing up in higher mileage cars. What is common on these car, transmission type, exhaust mods and so forth??

Just some things for everyone to think about.
 
#31 ·
jfoj, I think you are on the right track, and in line with OP post #1. Has anyone had this issue with an E46 when it was new? If not, what is changing over time to cause this? I can rule out the DISA on mine. I drove 400+ miles with the DISA unplugged with no change.

Has anyone replaced the knock sensors in response to this? I'm not sure how the computer reacts to "unplugged" knock sensors, but replacing them may be a telling trial.

If it didn't happen "out of the box", I can't see where this is a software issue.
 
#32 ·
The way I understand it is that the 2800-3000 rpm miss is related to the O2 sensor programming......the original software has the parameters for the O2 sensors set in too narrow of a band and as things wear, carbon buildup, whatever the cause, the range for the O2s needs to be opened up to eliminate the issue. The latest software from BMW takes care of this. This is different from the DISA/knock sensor problem that causes the dip at 4000 rpm.

This post explains things pretty well......

I wanted to follow up on the Vanos install with more information. My initial impression of it being fixed after my phase 2 (see previous post on this thread) which included a Vanos rebuild from DrVanos was that the car had lost its jerkiness in the 2500-3000 RPM range under moderate acceleration...but then it returned and the P2240 - O2 Bank2 Sensor fault returned (FC 2974 for the peake tool).

I came to the conclusion that it was most likely a SW issue. Thanks to TerraPhantm, among others, that had posted on a thread with many clues echoing my symptoms.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120971&page=3


I bit the bullet and took it to the dealership (KY in hand) knowing that I was gonna get reamed for 2hours of labor. I presented the case and history very clearly to the good Service Rep and I left with a loaner...not a new BMW:mad:

The dealer then notified me that my diagnosis was correct.

The applicable ECU update was for the following service bulletin:

SI B 12 40 06 Engine Electrical Systems

Subject: MS45.I - Various O2 Sensor Faults Stored in DME

This Service Information bulletin supersedes S.M. B12 208 04 Dated October 2004.

Model: E46 3 Series (all models except 325xi and 330xi), E60 5 Series (525i, 530i), E83 X3 (all models) with M54 engine up to 09/04.

Fault Codes: 2960, 2961, 2973, and 2974

Cause: The DME Oxygen Sensor internal adaptation is incorrect.

Procedure: On a customer complaint ONLY, reprogram the DME , using the current Program version. The improved DME software was introduced since DIS CD V39.1 and Program V13.2.

This has fixed the jerkiness for me. I tested the crap out of my car and transitioned through the rpm range in all gears many times. It is as smooth as could be.

Thanks to everybody that helped. I don't know if I would use DrVanos again, though when you add up what is needed for a rebuild from Beisan systems, you wind up spending $120 vs. $250, and DrVanos does clean, rebuild (not a big deal), and test the solenoids so I don't regret the DrVanos extravagance, but I do see Smolck's point of view regarding his opinion on the matter.

So, my rattle is fixed with the rebuilt Vanos, and I have the power and smoothness back. I hope it lasts.
I will add to this thread, adding info about stuff I learned, that either wasn't in the DIYs I used, or I had missed.

Time to wind it up on some twisties...:bigpimp:
I had this miss along with an occasional 2974 Peake code (no CEL though) and had my DME updated about 3 years ago by JBEurotech in Minneapolis and it completely cured the miss and seemed to make it run better overall. Before having the software update I tried the Beisan seals, plugs and fuel filter without any change. Also the dealer installed a new DISA on the day I bought my car. I've seen posts from others who have installed new O2s and still had the miss.

I still have a very slight dip at 4000 rpm, more noticeable on hotter days. It seems like this 2800-3000 rpm miss is most common on 2004 ZHPs for some reason.

Barry
 
#33 ·
^Thanks Barry. That would explain why it didn't happen to new cars. That would also explain why Mango has never experienced this; all his parts are new. ;)
 
#39 ·
Doesn't have to be a euro tune. You can flash any stock BMW software via winkfp.

And BMW software (dealer and factory) writes over the whole DME (program and data) so having an aftermarket tune shouldn't be an issue. You would need to get retuned afterwards (though sounds like you weren't really a fan of your tuner anyway).
 
#40 ·
Don't own my zhp any more but got a PM asking me to update here so I will.

Parts replaced:

vanos seals (beisan systems)
Disa valve
Oil separator and hoses
intake boot
spark plugs

didn't really do much.

Had the DME overnighted to BMW NA for the flash, that made things much better but I wouldn't say 100% cured.

I now own an N52 powered car without the DISA, and the acceleration feels much more linear, which I believe is in part due to the fact that there is no change going on in the intake during WOT acceleration.
 
#43 ·
just found this thread.. I have a 2004 330CI with same shutter... replaced ccv, all boots and hoses, did the vanos seals, spark plugs.. issue persists.

I do have PASoft 1.4, could i use that to update the DME ??

what's the procedure if i can?



Sent from my SGH-I727R using Bimmer App
 
#44 ·
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