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Old 06-03-2009, 03:16 PM   #1
jeffro3000
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Exclamation Interesting info regarding oil drain interval

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-4133
Quote:
Abstract:

Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several other performance attributes before they are approved for use in customer engines. However, these performance attributes are measured at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15% lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval. The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3,000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12,000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.
Moral of the story: Those of you who change oil every 3-5k to be on the "safe side" are being counterproductive.

Don't change it too often and increase wear.

Don't change it too seldom and increase wear.

There's a sweet-spot, if you will.



BTW - Thanks to jpr for initially sharing this article.

Last edited by jeffro3000; 06-03-2009 at 11:18 PM. Reason: Added another bold.
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:19 PM   #2
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How interesting! One could extract a lot of useful from that article

Thanks for sharing
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:24 PM   #3
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So... the best thing to do is to talk your buddies into letting you "help change their oil" at 3-5,000 miles, and then offer to "dispose of it" for them for free. You just don't have to tell 'em you're going to "dispose of it" by pouring it into your engine!
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:28 PM   #4
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my magic number is 7500 miles
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:51 AM   #5
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my magic number is 7500 miles
thats where i try to do it.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:29 PM   #6
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bump.

waaay too many people need to see this.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:42 PM   #7
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Nice...

I'M NEVER CHANGING MY OIL AGAIN!!!!!!!!










Seriously tho, looks like I may be switching to once a year, or around once every 10k-15k miles, with a biannual filter swap.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:02 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by habbyguy View Post
So... the best thing to do is to talk your buddies into letting you "help change their oil" at 3-5,000 miles, and then offer to "dispose of it" for them for free. You just don't have to tell 'em you're going to "dispose of it" by pouring it into your engine!
I remember reading about an service technician that brought used oil home from his work and used it in his own cars, because he found it just a waste when people insisted the oil be changed every 3-5000 miles when he knew the oil would be good for 10-15,0000 miles.

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Pure BS, for what it cost to analyze my oil, I just change it and you can see the smile on the engine 5K me majic # plus I enjoy doing this
LOL, you think you are smarter than the SAE? Wow. Well, before I say anything else mean, do you use Mobil 1 0w-40 and if you do, could you ship it to me if I pay for shipping?
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:41 PM   #9
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Pure BS, for what it cost to analyze my oil, I just change it and you can see the smile on the engine 5K me majic # plus I enjoy doing this
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:56 PM   #10
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Pure BS, for what it cost to analyze my oil, I just change it and you can see the smile on the engine 5K me majic # plus I enjoy doing this
you dont have to get an analysis. I've done one so far, and i've got a few more to do. So far it's pointing to about 9-10k. (on mobil 1 0w-40)

On my next change i'm going to let the SI count down to 5k miles and see how it's doing at that point. Using the SI is the best way to determine oil life to begin with, but i wasnt thinking about this last time i changed and forgot to reset it . So mileage is all i have to go by this time...
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:05 PM   #11
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Yah but..

Ever had one of those cars that you could feel a smoother/quicker/ whatever word that describes improvement right after your oil change and then it slowly fade away as time went by?
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:10 PM   #12
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Yah but..

Ever had one of those cars that you could feel a smoother/quicker/ whatever word that describes improvement right after your oil change and then it slowly fade away as time went by?
Yes, that's called the placebo effect. It happens after spark plug change, coil change, new floor mat, or washer fluid change. Sometimes a pair of new shoes has that effect too.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:18 PM   #13
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so you guys agree with this but you do not agree with BMW recommendation regarding lifetime transmission fluid?
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:31 PM   #14
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Yes, that's called the placebo effect. It happens after spark plug change, coil change, new floor mat, or washer fluid change. Sometimes a pair of new shoes has that effect too.
Hell, my car runs better fresh out of the carwash!
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:01 PM   #15
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Pure BS, for what it cost to analyze my oil, I just change it and you can see the smile on the engine 5K me majic # plus I enjoy doing this


This has been argued for ages.

I change mine every 5k and my bimmers are at 109k, 139k, my last bimmer was at 178k before I sold her, and my jeep is at 230k miles right now. I'm not worried.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:12 PM   #16
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This has been argued for ages.

I change mine every 5k and my bimmers are at 109k, 139k, my last bimmer was at 178k before I sold her, and my jeep is at 230k miles right now. I'm not worried.
Yea you're right. No one knows more than you.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:14 PM   #17
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Yea you're right. No one knows more than you.
Especially automotive engineers who publish research articles.

Good article jeffro
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:57 PM   #18
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Yea you're right. No one knows more than you.
Re-read my post. No where in there did I say I knew it all...or anything for that matter. I simply stated that I've always changed my oil at 5k and in all my years and many cars, not to mention the 4 I have right now, 2 of which are over 100k miles and 1 at over 200k miles and all run like a champ, I see no need to change my habits due to your article.

And if you'd get off the articles' nuts, I can quote parts of it just like you, it's just that you choose to focus on certain sentences that lead you to say,
"Those of you who change oil every 3-5k to be on the "safe side" are being counterproductive" when NO WHERE in that article does it say that.

Here are the counter highlights:
Quote:
Abstract:

Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several other performance attributes before they are approved for use in customer engines. However, these performance attributes are measured at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15% lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils. (FRESH OILS, NOT every 3-5k AS YOU PUT IT) It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval.(I like how you skipped just this sentence in your bolding....these improvements were observed as early as the 3k mile to 15k miles....which CLEARLY 3-5k falls between, which you claim "Those of you who change oil every 3-5k to be on the "safe side" are being counterproductive.") The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3,000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12,000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.Exactly.
Meh, no need to debate this further with you. Like I said originally, my cars run great.
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Old 06-03-2009, 11:10 PM   #19
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Re-read my post. No where in there did I say I knew it all...or anything for that matter. I simply stated that I've always changed my oil at 5k and in all my years and many cars, not to mention the 4 I have right now, 2 of which are over 100k miles and 1 at over 200k miles and all run like a champ, I see no need to change my habits due to your article.

And if you'd get off the articles' nuts, I can quote parts of it just like you, it's just that you choose to focus on certain sentences that lead you to say,
"Those of you who change oil every 3-5k to be on the "safe side" are being counterproductive" when NO WHERE in that article does it say that.

Here are the counter highlights:

Meh, no need to debate this further with you. Like I said originally, my cars run great.


Seems you're lacking in the mathematics department as well as the logic department.

Lets see, so the benefits are observed as early as 3k miles? So logic would tell you to.... go ahead and change it then? wait that doesnt seem right. I'd rather keep it in and actually reap the benefits. Well how about 5k then. With this drain you get 2k good miles worth of added protection. Great! Oh wait, that was after 3k miles of the "FRESH OIL" disadvantage . Moving on. How about 7.5k? You get 4.5k miles of added protection with this drain interval, with the same 3k mile "break-in period." See where i'm going with this? I'll keep going if need be. It may take awhile for it to sink in.

The longer the drain interval (up to a certain point), the more the increased protection vs. "FRESH OIL" ratio increases. This is the entire purpose behind the oil analyses i've done. To find the maximum length i can leave the oil in (past the 3k mark) to maximize my protection.

I guess i was wrong in assuming everyone on this forum had a basic understanding of math and logic...

I do, however, agree with your next to last sentence. You're done debating alright.
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Old 06-04-2009, 12:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKC View Post
Re-read my post. No where in there did I say I knew it all...or anything for that matter. I simply stated that I've always changed my oil at 5k and in all my years and many cars, not to mention the 4 I have right now, 2 of which are over 100k miles and 1 at over 200k miles and all run like a champ, I see no need to change my habits due to your article.

And if you'd get off the articles' nuts, I can quote parts of it just like you, it's just that you choose to focus on certain sentences that lead you to say,
"Those of you who change oil every 3-5k to be on the "safe side" are being counterproductive" when NO WHERE in that article does it say that.

Here are the counter highlights:

Meh, no need to debate this further with you. Like I said originally, my cars run great.

AGREED. 5K is a good number. I think 3K is overkill unless you are really hammering on it.

The test "fleet" consisted of 3 cars run in the desert.
There was no mention of severity of use or other factors that come into play.

Engine oil is exposed to toxins from combustion as well as metal wear.
The exposure to combustion is the main reason for more frequent changes.

5K is a good number. 15K is not too bright for a daily. So your oil "may" lubricate better. Too bad it wont flow and be there (at high RPM's) because your oil filter is clogged. Ever see what a spun rod bearing looks like?

I will take the article in for good information but I am not changing my oil at 15K. I have done 7 or so.
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