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Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 12-02-2011, 10:31 PM   #1
Hecs21
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Single mass vs. Dual mass?...

Here's the question: single mass or dual mass flywheel?

Car: 2001 325i sedan 160k miles

So I've been doing a LOT of research, on here, other forums, and general Internet searches. I've found a lot of info but didn't see a thread specifically for this. Sorry if I missed it.

So basically just looking for advice, experiences, and any general knowledge.

I am having to replace my clutch VERY soon and cost is an issue! I am leaning towards buying an F1 Racing clutch/flywheel kit from Gripforce rigt now b/c the price is right. I have done my research on them and seems other fellow Bimmer owners have had good experiences. That being said, I am aware going to SMF will most likely cause chatter. However I also like the fact that going to a SMF means if I have to do this again later (hopefully Way later) I won't have to buy another FW.

They are offering OE kits with a DMF for a little over $600, a stage 1 with a SMF for a little over $400, or a stage 2 with SMF for under $500.

So in summation, I'm wondering besides the chatter/performance upgrade vs. the stock, smooth drivability argument.....

What are the other pros n cons of this debate?

P.S. Any other experiences with Gripforce would be helpful as well.

Thanks, Dan
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:44 PM   #2
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single mass flywheel, with a none self adjusting clutch.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:52 PM   #3
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Thanks for the quick response.

Really? Everything I'm looking at is still self adjusting with a sprung hub. From what I've read the sprung hub helps keep the chafer to minimum.

What is the benefit of non self adjusting & how much more work & what has to be done? I'm not a total noob to cars by any means but not even close to being a mechanic. I'm learning quick though lol.
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:24 PM   #4
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I gave gripforce stage 1 & 2 tremendous consideration when I was looking for a performance upgrade. After lots of research, (this was two years ago) I went with UUC for a little over 1K.

I had read good reviews about the GF, but have also read quite a few bad ones. As already mentioned, the GF uses a 'self adjusting pressure plate" along with a sprung hub clutch. The sprung hub clutch is fine, but if I remember correctly the problem is with the SAPP/SAC. Go to UUC's website, I believe they have a page with plenty of info on the problems of a SAPP/SAC.

Remember, you really only want to do this job one time, because it's a PITA.



Good luck.
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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!

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Old 12-04-2011, 11:31 PM   #5
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I gave gripforce stage 1 & 2 tremendous consideration when I was looking for a performance upgrade. After lots of research, (this was two years ago) I went with UUC for a little over 1K.

I had read good reviews about the GF, but have also read quite a few bad ones. As already mentioned, the GF uses a 'self adjusting pressure plate" along with a sprung hub clutch. The sprung hub clutch is fine, but if I remember correctly the problem is with the SAPP/SAC. Go to UUC's website, I believe they have a page with plenty of info on the problems of a SAPP/SAC.

Remember, you really only want to do this job one time, because it's a PITA.

Good luck.
From UUC's website:

"ELIMINATION OF THE ''SAC'' (SELF-ADJUSTING CLUTCH)

Many owners of these cars have experienced mushy clutch feel, inconsistent engagement, and premature wear of the clutch in their manual-transmission cars. The reason is quite simple - the original BMW (LUK-manufactured) clutch has a new "SAC" (Self Adjusting Clutch) design. This new mechanism built into the pressure plate is supposed to keep the clutch pedal engagement point the same as the clutch wears... but in all reality, it's a case of "an answer to a question that nobody was asking." They have added a layer of complexity and feedback isolation, filling a need that didn't need filling - it is not too often that anybody notices that their clutch engagement point as moved 1/2" over 50K miles.

The SAC mechanism itself causes problems; it over- or under-adjusts the pressure plate and therefore causes the clutch to slip or burn out prematurely. They are also known to shift, causing the pressure plate release fingers to slip off the plate, keeping 1/3 of the pressure plate engaged at all times. Bottom line is that the only fix is a complete clutch job, and your dealer is likely to claim "driver abuse". We have seen it happen too many times.

The SAC mechanism may not give a clean release like a standard clutch. Instead of just two sets of springs, there is an adjuster mechanism that makes engagement feel mushy or slow.

All UUC Performance Clutches for these models use an all-new design pressure plate that does not have the SAC mechanism. The resulting improvement in feel is immediate - the clutch is easy to modulate and is consistent, regardless of temperature. Additionally, the reliability and lifespan of the clutch are enhanced. The UUC clutch eliminates the SAC mechanism and restores traditional clutch feel with predictable and crisp engagement."

Link: First click on "REPLACEMENT CLUTCH KITS (OE AND HIGH PERFORMANCE)" Then click on "ELIMINATION OF THE ''SAC'' (SELF-ADJUSTING CLUTCH)".
http://www.nexternal.com/shared/Stor...t=products.asp

Good luck.
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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:02 PM   #6
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That would be, or is going to be my choice when I don my clutch. To me, it'll provide more user control, although it may get rid of some comforts.
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:46 PM   #7
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I recommend a single mass lightened steel flywheel for street (turner or bimmerworld) they are not too light that the idle will not need to be raised, but can induce a lil bit more chatter (at idle), not a big deal. I like single mass flywheels and no clutch delay valve. I would also recommend a ss clutch line. You end up with an easier to modulate clutch pedal that gives more feedback. Pair that with an oem clutch kit, don't forget the release lever, spring clip, pivot pin, throw-out bearing bushing and pilot bearing. Also, make sure your slave cylinder is in good shape. Unless you have more than 300hp, then I would recommend an aftermarket clutch & pressure plate. Stay away from self adjusting, they're junk imo.

FYI...replacing the cluch is not a pita.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:11 AM   #8
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.......................

FYI...replacing the cluch is not a pita.


LOL, that's good to know. Next time I need to do it I'll let you do it, of course your choice of beer.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:25 AM   #9
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The Gripforce kits I'm looking at do come with a chromolly steel FW. It weighs almost 16lbs, so its not too light. Everything is milled from one piece. I'm running bone stock and have no immediate upgrade plans. Maybe intake or exhaust later down the road.

I'm just trying to find the best option for the best price. I'm on a budget with this job & hopefully a mechanic friend of mine will do it. That will keep my cost down but I'm trying to stay under $600-$700 for the clutch & flywheel. There may be some other issues that will be addressed while this is being done.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:34 AM   #10
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Being on a budget is fine & all, but if the parts you buy are not good quality, well then being on a budget really doesn't matter. Maybe you should reread post #5. I'd really do a little more research before you dive into an Ebay clutch system.




Good luck.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:54 AM   #11
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I will personally recommend going single mass flywheel with a sprung hub clutch that's not self adjusting.

That said without going to some questionable companies then its going to put you over budget by 300 to 400, unless you happen across some in the f.s. section (please only buy new clutches) the flys are no big deal if used as they're rebuildable.

So honestly with your budget then I think o.e. is going to be the cheapest route if you're willing to risk reusing your stock dual mass flywheel (I'm not endorsing this just saying it has been done.)

To put it in perspective when I first put in my uuc stage 1 flywheel my cost for the new flywheel was 360+548 for the clutch kit. So 908 brand new, as I found a brandnew flywheel in the f.s. section.

That's vs about 300 for a stock self adjusting clutch kit assuming you can decide to risk your reusing your stock dual mass....



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Old 12-03-2011, 12:58 AM   #12
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Fastjason, your a$$ must be massive for it not to be a
pain.

Its not particularly hard but its not what id call fun by any strech of the imagination.

Or on 2nd thought maybe you're a smaller guy and can get at some of the stuff easier because I'm 6'3" 240lbs and some of those bolts make contort in some unnatural positions to get at.

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Old 12-03-2011, 01:02 AM   #13
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I dont understand why you need an aftermarket clutch. Your DMF should be good to accept a second OEM clutch ,well unless its burnt. You said you are on a budget, a new oem clutch is like 150 bucks or so , new oem flywheel is expensive , sure, at 600-700 its not really cheap BUT if you really want a new fly I would strongly advice to buy oem.

You have a 5 speed, so my suggestions for you would be to get an E34 M5 OEM clutch disk and put in on your old DMF, and if your fly is shot then buy an OEM MDF. All this aftermarket crap is just crap thats all it is. UUC makes such sh1t products that I wouldnt put anything they make on my car even if they paid me for it. A quick search reveals more negative feedback then positive, plus I hear enough stories from my friends.

Plus you dont really need a single mass fly, why would you? What for? DMF is a very good flywheel that does a hell of a job and helps our cars be so smooth as thats what BMW is known for. Plus it lasts up to 300k miles, I'd like to see some chinese crap last that long.

If your car is street driven you should not even be thinking about SMF or aftermarket clutches , forget about it , its just a pain in the ass thats not worth the hassle. Plus oem clutch can easily hold 300ft/lbs, E34 M5 clutch (that you should get if you get a bit more money ) can hold 400ft/lbs . With these numbers why even bother looking at some chinese crap.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:16 AM   #14
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LOL, that's good to know. Next time I need to do it I'll let you do it, of course your choice of beer.
Bring a keg of Stone IPA, & I'll get it done...no prob.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:24 AM   #15
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Fastjason, your a$$ must be massive for it not to be a
pain.

Its not particularly hard but its not what id call fun by any strech of the imagination.

Or on 2nd thought maybe you're a smaller guy and can get at some of the stuff easier because I'm 6'3" 240lbs and some of those bolts make contort in some unnatural positions to get at.

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E46 clutch= hours or less, not including smg (adapations/initializations take some time).
They're not that big of a deal.

OP, what do you want out of you clutch project? OEM feel, or what?
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:27 AM   #16
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Just a quick heads up for you the UUC flywheels are made by Fidanza which is a very reputable aftermarket flywheel manufacturer. As for a lot of their other products being crappy (espically bushings) I won't give you any argument, but I have nothing but praise about the flywheel.

Maybe he wants the car to feel a little faster as to his "need" for a SMF? Its fine either way, single masses were used for years and will cause no ill effects.

And on a side note why would you upgrade to an e34 m5 clutch kit (assuming you were including the pressure plate in your comment) with an otherwise unmodified 325i? Its overkill, and the increased clamping force of the pressure plate is the majority of the pita of driving a car with a SMF and that (or e36 m3 performance) clutch kit.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:47 AM   #17
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Just a quick heads up for you the UUC flywheels are made by Fidanza which is a very reputable aftermarket flywheel manufacturer. As for a lot of their other products being crappy (espically bushings) I won't give you any argument, but I have nothing but praise about the flywheel.

Maybe he wants the car to feel a little faster as to his "need" for a SMF? Its fine either way, single masses were used for years and will cause no ill effects.

And on a side note why would you upgrade to an e34 m5 clutch kit (assuming you were including the pressure plate in your comment) with an otherwise unmodified 325i? Its overkill, and the increased clamping force of the pressure plate is the majority of the pita of driving a car with a SMF and that (or e36 m3 performance) clutch kit.
I didnt know who makes their flywheels, but I know that their products simply dont last. 2 of my friends had both their UUC organic clutches fried after a year (roughly 17kmiles) and all I hear on the web is that UUC clutches are crap, I have yet to hear a single positive feedback about UUc clutch that had done over 20-30k miles. I dont know how many miles you have on your clutch or how much hp you have but I would like to know. They might be good in the beginning but I highly doubt they can last.

I have 120kmiles on my original clutch and I beat the hell out of it as soon as I bought this car(40k miles ago), well within reason of course. My friend has 150k miles on his original clutch and it just started to slip a bit but he can still manage a nice tire smoking show . When I hear an aftermarket company making a clutch that lasts this long I'll think about buying one.

Well, I dont now what he really wants so just thought I'd give him an option as I dont think many people even know that you can put an E34 M5 clutch in your 5 speed. I would guess if he is thinking a\bout a SMF and an aftermarket clutch setup he wouldnt mind that, but I gotta say that E34 M5 doesnt have that bad of a clutch. I've driven one this passed summer and the pedal felt just like my E46 did, what was different is the engagement point and travel(but that could've been the pedal itself), but apart from that I didnt notice anything.
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Old 12-03-2011, 02:01 AM   #18
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I didnt know who makes their flywheels, but I know that their products simply dont last. 2 of my friends had both their UUC organic clutches fried after a year (roughly 17kmiles) and all I hear on the web is that UUC clutches are crap, I have yet to hear a single positive feedback about UUc clutch that had done over 20-30k miles. I dont know how many miles you have on your clutch or how much hp you have but I would like to know. They might be good in the beginning but I highly doubt they can last.

I have 120kmiles on my original clutch and I beat the hell out of it as soon as I bought this car(40k miles ago), well within reason of course. My friend has 150k miles on his original clutch and it just started to slip a bit but he can still manage a nice tire smoking show . When I hear an aftermarket company making a clutch that lasts this long I'll think about buying one.

Well, I dont now what he really wants so just thought I'd give him an option as I dont think many people even know that you can put an E34 M5 clutch in your 5 speed. I would guess if he is thinking a\bout a SMF and an aftermarket clutch setup he wouldnt mind that, but I gotta say that E34 M5 doesnt have that bad of a clutch. I've driven one this passed summer and the pedal felt just like my E46 did, what was different is the engagement point and travel(but that could've been the pedal itself), but apart from that I didnt notice anything.
Lol. Well first things first My e36M3 sprung hub clutch clutch is out of the car as we speak as I await my new one; it lasted 35k miles with 217rwhp (so 255-265 at the crank depending on how much drive train loss you figure), before the throw out bearing grenaded causing some damage to other components (still plenty of material left though).

That said the clutch I have was a Sachs Performance clutch. Sachs is owned by ZF by the way and also made a lot of other stock parts on our cars. I'll post pics of it up when the new one comes in so you can see that it is from Sachs and not UUC. I forget who made the stock self adjusting one, was it LUK?

I have no doubt that in the e34 M5 the clutch felt great, but I can tell you from experience that the e36 M3 performance clutch and the e34 m5 clutch require quite a bit more effort in an e46, although this can supposedly be remedied by switching an e36m3 slave cylinder (I'm going to guess higher pressure valving).
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:32 AM   #19
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That said the clutch I have was a Sachs Performance clutch. Sachs is owned by ZF by the way and also made a lot of other stock parts on our cars. I'll post pics of it up when the new one comes in so you can see that it is from Sachs and not UUC. I forget who made the stock self adjusting one, was it LUK?

I have no doubt that in the e34 M5 the clutch felt great, but I can tell you from experience that the e36 M3 performance clutch and the e34 m5 clutch require quite a bit more effort in an e46, although this can supposedly be remedied by switching an e36m3 slave cylinder (I'm going to guess higher pressure valving).
Are you sure about that? I'd like to make the Sachs performance clutch a bit lighter and I haven't seen somebody being sure about what slave cylinder to get
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:25 PM   #20
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Are you sure about that? I'd like to make the Sachs performance clutch a bit lighter and I haven't seen somebody being sure about what slave cylinder to get
I'm not 100% sure, this is one of those rumors I've heard. It would make sense though since they are different part numbers even though the rest of the clutch controls are pretty much the same, I just bought a new slave for my car, a couple of weeks ago and have installed it. However it hasn't been used per se (installed but not used if that makes any sense) so I may clean it up, box it back up and exchange it for an e36m3 slave. If they'll let me do it. So I'll be the guinea pig I guess.
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