Need Advice From F/I Users

Hey guys,

I purchased my 04 LSB M3 last October and after falling in love with the overall maturity and confidence of the car I decided more power would be a great compliment to those aspects. After doing my research it became very obvious that an N/A application will not net me the power I want without significant sacrifice.

So my options are to supercharge or turbocharge...

I own a 87 rx7 TII with a single turbo (similar to a gt35r) so I've been hypnotised into believing that turbo applications are the best and I'd like to experience that feeling with my M3.

My goals are to make 450-550 rwhp, trap 125+ in the 1/4 running low 12's or preferable high 11's. I'd like to make this kind of power on pump gas (if meth is needed that's fine) because I don't plan on running with race gas more than several times a year. My car mostly sees mountain roads anyways. I also don't really want to spend more than 12k for a kit, custom or not. I'd be making 550 rwhp quite easily if I put that kind of money into my rx7 so I don't feel like that's asking too much.

I've looked at every kit I can find, the HPF stage 1 kit makes less then what I want on pump gas and also costs more. The addition of meth puts me right where I'd like to be but 15k is pretty steep considering what I'll be doing with the car. The AA, ESS, VF kits are right in my price range but power does not seem to be made until redline, ie, you're waiting for the power to come in and the youtube videos I've seen seem to confirm that as they don't seem to pull stock e46 m3's until higher up in the power band as the supercharger is pushing more boost. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

All in all if I have to pay more then so be it, but for the price of buying a used e46 m3 I want to be dam# sure I won't regret it.

I'm 23, living on my own and I'm trying to get all this done before I settle down and start a family cuz all this will go out the door. What I'd like to hear is advice from you guys on what you would do in this situation whether go custom/supercharger kits (AA, VF, etc)/hpf kits. And those of you who have spent this kind of money, do you have any regrets? Is your car always having to get tinkered with to run right after the install kind of stuff etc.

Thanks for the help in advance guys,

~Anthony

p.s. This thread is NOT intended to talk down on other kits, please just state the experience good/bad with your own kit.

Why not do a stage 1 HPF with NO meth pump (big savings) and a single tune for E70. That will allow you to run summer E85 and winter E70. A recent HPF car, Brian's is making 630 HP ALL the time now on this set up.
Canvass some shops to see if they want to give you a free or a discounted installation in exchange for publicity(logo on your car, name of shop plastered on the internet etc)

This is not very feasible if you dont have any E85 pumps close to you. I personally would buy 50 gallon drums and fill them up at outlying stations. Its so worth it. No meth costs, huge power, minimal Stage 1 price. Think about it.

There are two threads on Brians ethanol HPf burner,,one here and one on bimmerboost. Read both threads.

That will give you all the power you want using cheap "pump" gas, so to speak.
My tuner is working on putting a 93 octane tune on the same ECU as the E85 tune.
It may not be possible, or it could prove to work. More on that in a few weeks.
Good luck.
Read BOTH threads.

IF you were to go SC (don't) I would choose ESS. You dont WANT a belt or a system that is always ON. A turbo can be driven like any normal street car when it is is off boost. Go Stage 1 WITH the meth pump if you must. Loading up 4 drums of E85 might be more preferable. I pray you have a close by E85 source. That would close the deal in my mind.

Originally Posted by Bdave

Why not do a stage 1 HPF with NO meth pump (big savings) and a single tune for E70. That will allow you to run summer E85 and winter E70. A recent HPF car, Brian's is making 630 HP ALL the time now on this set up.
Canvass some shops to see if they want to give you a free or a discounted installation in exchange for publicity(logo on your car, name of shop plastered on the internet etc)

This is not very feasible if you dont have any E85 pumps close to you. I personally would buy 50 gallon drums and fill them up at outlying stations. Its so worth it. No meth costs, huge power, minimal Stage 1 price. Think about it.

There are two threads on Brians ethanol HPf burner,,one here and one on bimmerboost. Read both threads.

That will give you all the power you want using cheap "pump" gas, so to speak.
My tuner is working on putting a 93 octane tune on the same ECU as the E85 tune.
It may not be possible, or it could prove to work. More on that in a few weeks.
Good luck.
Read BOTH threads.

IF you were to go SC (don't) I would choose ESS. You dont WANT a belt or a system that is always ON. A turbo can be driven like any normal street car when it is is off boost. Go Stage 1 WITH the meth pump if you must. Loading up 4 drums of E85 might be more preferable. I pray you have a close by E85 source. That would close the deal in my mind.

Great info guys, unfortunately the closest e85 station is nearly 70 miles from me...so 140 mile round trip to fill up, not going to do that. I won't live here forever so hopefully the next place I live will have more stations and I could possibly do a switchover then. I haven't done my research on the 6766 turbo, I know it's a new design for HPF, anyone want to give me a quick summary on the benefits of it? More power on same psi sorta thing, better spool, longer power band, all of the above?

Originally Posted by Bdave

They used to have problems. But the new SS rings/gaskets all but eliminated the leaking issues. Sorry to hear of your problems.

Thats correct, mine leaked with the copper rings that came with the manifold when I first bought the kit. I called Steed directly, he sent me a set of SS rings and no issues since.

Originally Posted by 7to3_enthusiast

Great info guys, unfortunately the closest e85 station is nearly 70 miles from me...so 140 mile round trip to fill up, not going to do that. I won't live here forever so hopefully the next place I live will have more stations and I could possibly do a switchover then. I haven't done my research on the 6766 turbo, I know it's a new design for HPF, anyone want to give me a quick summary on the benefits of it? More power on same psi sorta thing, better spool, longer power band, all of the above?

If I remember correctly Ray, with technically a Stage 1, put down 500 whp on pump gas with the ProEFI set up. So you can do it, just have to have the right combination of parts.

I will advise you that you will/should upgrade your subframe, bushings, brakes at the same time among other things at the bare minimum.
Go with a Precision 6466 or 6766 Turbo, steed speed manifold...work from there. The "M" tax is not cheap

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

I will advise you that you will/should upgrade your subframe, bushings, brakes at the same time among other things at the bare minimum.
Go with a Precision 6466 or 6766 Turbo, steed speed manifold...work from there. The "M" tax is not cheap

Go with the HPF manifold my steed speed manifold leaks all the time.

Originally Posted by Forcefed M3

Go with the HPF manifold my steed speed manifold leaks all the time.

They used to have problems. But the new SS rings/gaskets all but eliminated the leaking issues. Sorry to hear of your problems.

The PT6766 unit is amazing. Its something you can build on, maybe never having to go to a 71mm turbo.

CW is correct. There IS an HPF "tax": Subframe needs and better stopping power. Also the tires needed to hook up your new found power. The latter depends on which way you ultimately decide to go.

Just do an HPF stage 1 with a 6766. Should make more than 450 on 91 no prob

I believe the 6766 will be the standard turbo for all stage 1, 2, and 2.5 kits. I don't know if any stage 1 or 2 cars have run this turbo yet, so we'll have to wait and see what it does on pump only.

Haven't posted on this account yet, but check out Saad Racing/ProEFI kits as well. Saad's turbo kits matched with ProEFI EMS will give you the availibility and power you are looking for and much more. If you ever become closer to an e85 station no extra tune is needed. The maps adjust themselves based on ethanol percentage automatically with the driver not having to change a thing. Yet you can still run 91/93 octane at all times with no problems. ProEFI has 5 stages of boost control which allows you to run 5 different maps at any given time. Saad's kits can include the PT6766 which is what everyone is talking about above^^^. Great turbos, amazing spool, absolutely no complaints there. Peak boost between 4500-5000rpms! All these things matched with the right setup and you will be in love with your car. Do yourself a favor and search around, especially on these forums, and get as much information as you possibly can about FI. It's a worthy upgrade for any m3.

"We are going to be creating a stage 2.25 with the HPF/AEM which will utilize the new Billet wheel Precision 6766 turbo along with a tune modification that will raise the pump gas figures safely along with all the other 3 maps (pump+meth, race and race+meth) by about 50rwhp. This will allow all of our existing stage 1 and 2 customers to add this horsepower safely without spending a lot of money. We will be setting this up on a car shortly and I will post up the results in the next few weeks." ~HPF CHRIS

This was stated in Ray's thread comment #46. Once again I've come back to HPF, but I'll be giving SAAD racing and PROEFI a call because their websites don't quite contain enough to get a good understanding of what they offer for our M3's.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...highlight=saad

Came across this thread after talking with ProEFI, nice guys btw. Seems like a simple build that net the exact results I'm looking for, at the moment at least.

Originally Posted by 7to3_enthusiast

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...highlight=saad

Came across this thread after talking with ProEFI, nice guys btw. Seems like a simple build that net the exact results I'm looking for, at the moment at least.

I always avoid commenting on S/C vs Turbo threads as I've never been in a S/C E46 M3. I should really be taken for a spin in one sometime so I can better compare the two solutions.

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

I always avoid commenting on S/C vs Turbo threads as I've never been in a S/C E46 M3. I should really be taken for a spin in one sometime so I can better compare the two solutions.

Still would like to hear from more s/c guys here. Those kits sell for very reasonable prices, could be a good bang for your buck. The compressor whistle of a turbo always gets my heart racing though .

Originally Posted by 7to3_enthusiast

Still would like to hear from more s/c guys here. Those kits sell for very reasonable prices, could be a good bang for your buck. The compressor whistle of a turbo always gets my heart racing though .

alot of the guys who have turboed their M3's used to have supercharger setups. great thing about having a turbo these days is that they can always be upgraded and modified even further, however, with superchargers, you get what you pay for and cant really go any further

Originally Posted by Ky///m3

alot of the guys who have turboed their M3's used to have supercharger setups. great thing about having a turbo these days is that they can always be upgraded and modified even further, however, with superchargers, you get what you pay for and can't really go any further

Corrected.

Anthony, I am a Former Dinan Stg 2 & AA gen3 stg2 Owner. Very Dissapionted in there Level of performance, upgradability, Value & Customer Service!

Now HPF stg2 w/ AEM v2 ECU (for now).

I agree with Almost everything my Buddies above have advised( 2nd cousins really )

Soon i too will Upgrade to the PT6766 turbo, ProEFI w/ FlexFuel, etc,etc and I only drive my M3 like every 5 Months. if my kids aren't in the Car, I Decimate my Rear tires and any and every Insect in my Path

I could not be happier with the Performance,Quality, Value and Support I receive that comes with this kit.

with that said just the kit will put an everlasting Smile on your Face. no question but it more than likely will be short lived/enjoyed if the other things are not addressed i.e. Brakes,Subframe,Tires, Suspension.

I want to say that i believe it is cost effective to get what you can afford all at the time of Install but you do what you can with what you have.

I pieced my masterpiece together two or three things at a time due to budget & time.

The Kits that SAAD Racing, Maximum PSI, Technica Motorsports or Lutz Performance offer for the E46 M3 Platform are Solid kits as well. MaximumPSI is closest to you if your in VA btw

In any case we are here for you bro.

Welcome to the world of Turbo E46 M3s

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

I always avoid commenting on S/C vs Turbo threads as I've never been in a S/C E46 M3. I should really be taken for a spin in one sometime so I can better compare the two solutions.

It will be a real eye opener. Years ago I got a ride in a Stage 3 HPF on pump and meth. I stepped right out of that car (within 5 minutes)into an AA SC car that supposedly did an honest 500rwhp on the dyno. It literally felt like a stock M3. I kept asking if there were any boost problems. The comparison is dramatically in favor of the turbo car.
There have been scores of guys who go from SC to turbo, but only one documented case of somebody going from a turbo to a SC'd car. That is telling also.
I am still to this day wondering why I ever bothered Super Charging my car instead of just waiting until I had the funds available to do it right.

Originally Posted by Bdave

It will be a real eye opener. Years ago I got a ride in a Stage 3 HPF on pump and meth. I stepped right out of that car (within 5 minutes)into an AA SC car that supposedly did an honest 500rwhp on the dyno. It literally felt like a stock M3. I kept asking if there were any boost problems. The comparison is dramatically in favor of the turbo car.
There have been scores of guys who go from SC to turbo, but only one documented case of somebody going from a turbo to a SC'd car. That is telling also.
I am still to this day wondering why I ever bothered Super Charging my car instead of just waiting until I had the funds available to do it right.

Its quite true, some sc'd cars do feel like stock cars until you get into 4k-5k and up.

Its like super VTEC.

If you don't really get on it, it can feel very normal~

Some don't mind as when you don't push the car, the car behaves just like stock and added progressive power later in the power band keeps it very predictable and very easy to modulate and extract all the power for street and track use.

But very different from the turbo delivery, as superchargre boost build progressively so does the expectations of POWER, where as the turbo build boost that impresses your pants off.


I personally am looking to update to a turbo in the coming years after my car passes the 50k mark. But I am in no way feeling lack of power even at a paltry 6psi on my clutched blower.

Ive talked to a few owners(2) that have driven both and like the nice powerful delivery of an AA stg 2 renegade kit/ESS over a turbo kit, as they see power as not everything.

of course its all personal opinion, but any FI kit is better than no kit.

Originally Posted by MachRc

Its quite true, some sc'd cars do feel like stock cars until you get into 4k-5k and up.

Its like super VTEC.

If you don't really get on it, it can feel very normal~

Some don't mind as when you don't push the car, the car behaves just like stock and added progressive power later in the power band keeps it very predictable and very easy to modulate and extract all the power for street and track use.

But very different from the turbo delivery, as supercharger boost build progressively so does the expectations of POWER, where as the turbo build boost that impresses your pants off.


I personally am looking to update to a turbo in the coming years after my car passes the 50k mark. But I am in no way feeling lack of power even at a paltry 6psi on my clutched blower.

Ive talked to a few owners(2) that have driven both and like the nice powerful delivery of an AA stg 2 renegade kit/ESS over a turbo kit, as they see power as not everything.

of course its all personal opinion, but any FI kit is better than no kit.

All true.

Big time HPDE guys (some of them) prefer the linear build of power for the track...more predictable corner exits, less chance of spinning out when the turbo hits and so on.
But that notion is being put to the test by variable boost set ups(turning the boost DOWN on some tracks) and running high compression set ups(as in the current HPF track car configuration) with a turbo vs the traditional low compression pistons. Better bearings, more power out of smaller turbos(faster spool up from smaller turbos), and other improvements are gaining more fans of the turbo as a more desirabale tool on HPDE courses. Passing virtually all the SC'd cars doesnt hurt the turbo image either.

Note also that the max HP is held over a much larger RPM range than a SC'er.
Adrenaline junkies need look no further than that visceral feeling a strong turbo gives.

Just for the record Some "purists" insist on no FI what so ever for their HPDE cars.

The bottom line is what makes YOU happy. It's YOUR money like the TV ad says. LOL

^^^ Thanks for the comment Rico, you guys are making my decision much easier lol. I'm glad to be part of the e46 m3 family, still have plenty to learn.