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Old 02-14-2013, 01:34 PM   #1
Mark M
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Why are diesel cars so much more expensive???

With a 75mile a day commute I've started to check out diesels as a fuel efficient alternative. Been scoping TDIs and have been researching used 335Ds Both have their share of battle scars....TDIs seem to have issues with their HPFP failing and causing all sorts of additional damage. Where as 335Ds seem to be going through injectors and in some cases even cylinder heads due to carbon buildup.

Diesel powered jettas are easily selling for ~$4k more than their gas counterpart. And diesel bimmers / benzs are also a steep increase in sales price. Why?

I've heard people say you're paying for the technology and that the drivetrain is more expensive....not sure I buy that.

Diesels are iron blocks. Isn't iron cheaper than most special alloys used in gassers?

Diesels have less moving parts so then less to produce and assemble right?

Don't diesels help the manufacturer's CAFE level, so wouldn't the company want to sell more of them...aka not jack up the price?

Don't diesel powertrains have a longer lifespan in production than gasser equivalents? Thus lower longrange development / retooling costs?

What am I missing?
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:38 PM   #2
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What I never understood is why more diesels are not sold here in the US, all these Euro model cars get 50-70 mpg, yet we don't get them.

The answer to my quesiton, and yours, is that the auto industry is controlled by oil company lobbyists who don't want diesels being sold here as it would cut into the oil companies profits.

More expensive diesles means less people will buy them and therefore buy more gas, or better yet don't even give people the option to buy diesel cars.

Just my opinion.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:39 PM   #3
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What I never understood is why more diesels are not sold here in the US, all these Euro model cars get 50-70 mpg, yet we don't get them.

The answer to my quesiton, and yours, is that the auto industry is controlled by oil company lobbyists who don't want diesels being sold here as it would cut into the oil companies profits.

More expensive diesles means less people will buy them and therefore buy more gas, or better yet don't even give people the option to buy diesel cars.

Just my opinion.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
With a 75mile a day commute I've started to check out diesels as a fuel efficient alternative. Been scoping TDIs and have been researching used 335Ds Both have their share of battle scars....TDIs seem to have issues with their HPFP failing and causing all sorts of additional damage. Where as 335Ds seem to be going through injectors and in some cases even cylinder heads due to carbon buildup.

Diesel powered jettas are easily selling for ~$4k more than their gas counterpart. And diesel bimmers / benzs are also a steep increase in sales price. Why?

I've heard people say you're paying for the technology and that the drivetrain is more expensive....not sure I buy that.

Diesels are iron blocks. Isn't iron cheaper than most special alloys used in gassers?

Diesels have less moving parts so then less to produce and assemble right?

Don't diesels help the manufacturer's CAFE level, so wouldn't the company want to sell more of them...aka not jack up the price?

Don't diesel powertrains have a longer lifespan in production than gasser equivalents? Thus lower longrange development / retooling costs?

What am I missing?
The answer to your question is supply and demand. Manufacturers know that people in the market for a diesel car are very specific in what they need and want. They know that they will pay more to get what they need. Supply in the used market is about 5% compared to the gas engine counterparts. Hence the used car premium.
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What I never understood is why more diesels are not sold here in the US, all these Euro model cars get 50-70 mpg, yet we don't get them.

The answer to my quesiton, and yours, is that the auto industry is controlled by oil company lobbyists who don't want diesels being sold here as it would cut into the oil companies profits.

More expensive diesles means less people will buy them and therefore buy more gas, or better yet don't even give people the option to buy diesel cars.

Just my opinion.
Its not the oil companies. Diesel fuel (aka Ultra-low-sulphar-diesel) is made from crude oil. So either way they are selling their product. The real issue is emissions. Diesels dont burn as clean as gas engines. The Grand Cherokee used to be available with a 3.0L diesel, but California axed it from its emissions laws and Chrysler decided to scrap the platform altogether.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:38 PM   #5
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The real issue is emissions. Diesels dont burn as clean as gas engines. The Grand Cherokee used to be available with a 3.0L diesel, but California axed it from its emissions laws and Chrysler decided to scrap the platform altogether.
There is a solution to the emissions issue with diesels and it's particulate filters combined with urea injection. The problem is that the technology is still pretty new and expensive - as always costs will go down when the acceptance and demand grows.

Despite the initial high cost, diesels are getting more popular in the US. I've seen a huge increase in the number of Golf/A3 TDIs on the road, a lot of X5 diesels, and a lot of ML/GL diesels. As fuel costs rise the demand for diesels is only going to go up, and the automakers are starting to get ready by increasing the number of diesel models available.

Chrysler is bringing a 50 state legal V6 diesel for the 2014 Grand Cherokee. Add that to a variety of diesels offered by Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche, and BMW and you have a growing base of diesel SUVs and passenger cars from which to choose. Ford is even offering a diesel Transit Connect for the first time in the US market, and there is rumor of a diesel coming for the Focus/Fiesta.

Diesels are hands down a better value and more environmentally friendly than hybrids, let's hope that more models make it to our shores.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:16 PM   #6
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There is a solution to the emissions issue with diesels and it's particulate filters combined with urea injection. The problem is that the technology is still pretty new and expensive - as always costs will go down when the acceptance and demand grows.

Despite the initial high cost, diesels are getting more popular in the US. I've seen a huge increase in the number of Golf/A3 TDIs on the road, a lot of X5 diesels, and a lot of ML/GL diesels. As fuel costs rise the demand for diesels is only going to go up, and the automakers are starting to get ready by increasing the number of diesel models available.

Chrysler is bringing a 50 state legal V6 diesel for the 2014 Grand Cherokee. Add that to a variety of diesels offered by Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche, and BMW and you have a growing base of diesel SUVs and passenger cars from which to choose. Ford is even offering a diesel Transit Connect for the first time in the US market, and there is rumor of a diesel coming for the Focus/Fiesta.

Diesels are hands down a better value and more environmentally friendly than hybrids, let's hope that more models make it to our shores.
You will see more and more of them get blocked to push the "green" agenda.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:58 PM   #7
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You will see more and more of them get blocked to push the "green" agenda.
And that would be irony at it's finest.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:39 PM   #8
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:40 PM   #9
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I know that in the new common rail diesel engines (CRD) injection pressure is over 2000 bar.

Maybe there are some expensive hurdles surrounding the technology?

The 335d is reliable, and it's also a beast. The evolve tuned ones are over 300rwhp and 450rwtq, with nothing other than a flash.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:43 PM   #10
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Wow^

I honestly don't know much about diesels, but i do know that some of the work trucks we have here are well past 400k miles with an astonishing amount of engine hours.


Edit: And they have had very VERY hard lives!
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:44 PM   #11
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Yeah.....I am really hot for a used well kept 335d. Planning to sell my E46 M3 this spring and bank the cash till I find something that is an ideal fit for me.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:15 PM   #12
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Yeah.....I am really hot for a used well kept 335d. Planning to sell my E46 M3 this spring and bank the cash till I find something that is an ideal fit for me.
I'm in the market for one (or a 135i, or an E90 M3) and have been researching them, as well and they seem to be more reliable than their gasoline counterparts. I'm sure you're aware, but make sure to aim for a 335d with the sport package, at the very least. Apparently, it makes a gigantic difference.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:54 PM   #13
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The NOx and other emissions requirements for diesel in the US are more stringent than Europe which requires US-bound diesels to be fitted with very expensive emissions systems. Couple the increased cost with a low demand for diesel power in the US market and you get a high cost of entry.

Edit: the 335d is an absolute beast. Even stock the thing is fiercely powerful, the pull from the massive wave of torque is pretty intoxicating and even if you flog it all day it does about 20 mpg. If you drive like your pants are not on fire, then mileage is fantastic and the massive torque still makes passing a breeze.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:00 PM   #14
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The NOx and other emissions requirements for diesel in the US are more stringent than Europe which requires US-bound diesels to be fitted with very expensive emissions systems. Couple the increased cost with a low demand for diesel power in the US market and you get a high cost of entry.
^This. Add on the urea injection system and refilling the tank every so often and it becomes more expensive quickly.

I do agree that there are tons of EU only cars that should definitely be imported here but much of the market research done by US automakers show that 'muricans don't particularly like diesels unless they are in massive trucks.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:37 PM   #15
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^This. Add on the urea injection system and refilling the tank every so often and it becomes more expensive quickly
Pretty much horse piss lol, the DEF is crazy if it drips on the ground. Crystallizes and leaves a white mess all over the place.

I like the 335d and the X5 diesel. Both are beasts and the torque is fun. Wish we would bring more European models/options over though...
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:04 PM   #16
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the torque numbers the 335d can produce are immense, I'm not sure why they are more expensive though.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #17
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:08 PM   #18
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It costs more because people are willing to pay more for them.
The people that want one are willing to pay the premium.

Diesels get more mpg and salesmen pitch them as a better value so they cost more. Salesmen suggest that the additional expense for the diesel will be made up in better mileage and they often say that diesel engines last longer.

But they fail to mention that a gas engine will last as long as a diesel with proper maintenance and diesel costs 35 cents more per gallon. And many gas cars get mileage as good or better than many diesels.

But people will pay the premium for the diesel to be different, for the same reason they pay 4k extra for a hybrid or 7k extra for an electric car like a Volt.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:18 PM   #19
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It costs more because people are willing to pay more for them.
The people that want one are willing to pay the premium.

Diesels get more mpg and salesmen pitch them as a better value so they cost more. Salesmen suggest that the additional expense for the diesel will be made up in better mileage and they often say that diesel engines last longer.

But they fail to mention that a gas engine will last as long as a diesel with proper maintenance and diesel costs 35 cents more per gallon. And many gas cars get mileage as good or better than many diesels.

But people will pay the premium for the diesel to be different, for the same reason they pay 4k extra for a hybrid or 7k extra for an electric car like a Volt.
This man's got it here. I'm about to buy a diesel G wagon (the only one successfully registered in CA, at that) and I'll be paying almost 30k for a vehicle with well north of 100,000 miles. But that's because I, and many others, have a financially unjustifiable passion for diesels, and are willing to suck up the premiums for more mechanically simple and efficient options.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:19 PM   #20
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This man's got it here. I'm about to buy a diesel G wagon (the only one successfully registered in CA, at that) and I'll be paying almost 30k for a vehicle with well north of 100,000 miles. But that's because I, and many others, have a financially unjustifiable passion for diesels, and are willing to suck up the premiums for more mechanically simple and efficient options.
How did you find a diesel Gwag? They never imported them to the US to the best of my knowledge....is it a private import? Those things are indestructable....literally. 100K is nothing.
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