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Old 05-29-2009, 01:14 AM   #21
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in
isn't your sedan WELL over 400 almost 500hp?
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:40 AM   #22
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There are two problems, one of which is that nobody wants to invest into a kit for the 330, and the second is nobody really knows much about the M54 block. "Experts" out there claim that the M54 can't take more than 400hp because of the aluminum block, however this has never been proven to be true.
What kind of proof do you want? Have them build motors and have them blow up? Who is going to foot the bill for that? Experienced builders dont want to spend money on something they see weaknesses in. You also have to allow for a "margin of safety" when building a motor. You cannot run it at its limit. Some dumbass customer will do something stupid and come to complaining your kit blew up and sucks and they want their money back.

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Let's look at the facts; the M54B30 is composed of an aluminim alloy block, forged steel connecting rods, and a one-piece forged crank. To me, this motor seems overbuilt.
Based on what? No offense but what qualifications/knowledge/experience do you have to make such an assumption?

The materials used dont mean anything if the structure cannot support the forces involved. The body on my car is made of steel. I can punch a large size dent in the side of it. If that body were 1/4 thick of the same material I would break my hand. See the difference? The shape/structure also matters.

There is a lot that goes into motor design to allow it to hold a certain amount of power.

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The only weak point I can see is the 10.5:1 compression, which can be compensated for in a couple of different ways. Some claim that the aluminum isn't able to hold the heat of more power and will crack, however with today's technology IAT's can be as low as 70 degrees. I've been looking around for the heat capacity of the al-sil block, but I haven't found a definite answer.
Coming out of a turbo the IAT will be closer to 100 degrees.
Aluminum is better for turbocharging because it conducts heat away from the combustion chamber faster. Lower burn temperatures allow you to run more boost or a higher compression ratio.
Once again you are discussing things you seem to have little background on and making generalizations based on opinions and feelings.

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The evidence to prove that 400hp is not the limit can be found in KromeX's car, a 330i with over 430whp, that has been running for a couple of years. He has a well-built, but simple setup, including head studs, new pistons and rods, and a new HG.
How much power a car can handle for how long also depends on how it is used, the tune, the way it is loaded, cooling, propensity to detonate, ect.

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I understand that there is limited availability for the 330, but turbo manifolds can be found, and that's really the only model-specific turbo part you need. IC pipes, lines, turbos, are all universal. The only hinging point is the tuning, which would need to be sourced.
The tuning, internals, and fuel system are the most important parts.

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I wanted to bring this topic to the table and have a good technical discussion about why or why not the 330 can make more than 400hp because the answer still seems to be up in the air. What do you think?
It is always good to discuss. You need to get a good look at a motor (block) in pieces to see how well it is built. You look at web thickness, types of cylinder liners, upper deck stability and layout, main bearing support, oiling system (critical), ect. Many factors. If people want to put up the cash then we can build a kit.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:00 AM   #23
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:59 AM   #24
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What kind of proof do you want? Have them build motors and have them blow up? Who is going to foot the bill for that? Experienced builders dont want to spend money on something they see weaknesses in. You also have to allow for a "margin of safety" when building a motor. You cannot run it at its limit. Some dumbass customer will do something stupid and come to complaining your kit blew up and sucks and they want their money back.
Blowing up motors is part of building fast cars. If something hasn't given out yet, you aren't making enough power.

Quote:
Based on what? No offense but what qualifications/knowledge/experience do you have to make such an assumption?
Because forged parts are used on every single serious performance motor from 500-1500+hp. When you swap out a crankshaft in any other car, you go for a forged 1 piece. You don't need forged steel parts on a 220hp 3.0L I6 that revs to 6.5k RPM. Saying it's overbuilt is not a drawback.. it's a compliment.

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The materials used dont mean anything if the structure cannot support the forces involved. The body on my car is made of steel. I can punch a large size dent in the side of it. If that body were 1/4 thick of the same material I would break my hand. See the difference? The shape/structure also matters.
I actually have no idea what you are saying. Something about punching steel?

Using the same example, you punching the side of the body has no effect on anything other than cosmetics. The materials used are everything.. you don't get it. I posted everything from what the block is made of to what the rods are made of.

Quote:
There is a lot that goes into motor design to allow it to hold a certain amount of power.
No, there is a lot of motor design to withstand the stress of the power the engine makes for hundreds of thousands of miles. Occasionally this means overbuilding. Most companies, even with performance cars, are indifferent how much power the engine can make with the stock block. That explains why some cars, like the 2JZ and 03/04 Cobra motor can take 800whp stock, and some - like the LT1, have hyperpeutic pistons that can only take ~400whp stock. However, my Z28 had 160,000 hard miles and it started every time.

Quote:
Coming out of a turbo the IAT will be closer to 100 degrees.
Google intercoolers and methanol injection. Those help lower IAT's.

Quote:
Aluminum is better for turbocharging because it conducts heat away from the combustion chamber faster. Lower burn temperatures allow you to run more boost or a higher compression ratio.
Which is exactly why this thread exists. Thank you for pointing that out.

Quote:
Once again you are discussing things you seem to have little background on and making generalizations based on opinions and feelings.
I'm posting based on what little knowledge is available. By all means, if you know more than I do, post it up. But from my standpoint all you're doing is nitpicking my post with invalid points.

Quote:
How much power a car can handle for how long also depends on how it is used, the tune, the way it is loaded, cooling, propensity to detonate, ect.
Let's ask him to give us a log of exactly how much power he ran for how long. Orr... we can just assume he boosts as much as the average driver would.

Quote:
The tuning, internals, and fuel system are the most important parts.
I would think a turbocharger would be the most important part on a turbo kit.

That's your opinion and I never made a claim at what the most important parts are.

I said that tuning would need to be found, and certain parts are universal and can be purchased from anyone. Internals can be found, too, as can a fuel system.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:02 AM   #25
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Let's keep this an informative discussion, not a finger pointing session. People need to stop face-palming unless they want this thread to go to crap.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:06 AM   #26
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isn't your sedan WELL over 400 almost 500hp?
shhh - I am just watching this...

and not yet...hopefully this week (dme finally being programmed for the bigger injectors and 8psi more FI)
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:05 AM   #27
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and not yet...hopefully this week (dme finally being programmed for the bigger injectors and 8psi more FI)

Side note- I hate you!






oh, subscribed...
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:21 AM   #28
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hey, dont hate...this has been a long wait...and hopefully it will be done soon
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:28 AM   #29
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8 more psi? How will I ever catch you now? I guess I'll need 2 bottles

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and not yet...hopefully this week (dme finally being programmed for the bigger injectors and 8psi more FI)
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:22 AM   #30
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Activ3- If it was about sheer power, I wouldn't drive a BMW. Hell, for the amount I spent upgrade from my LT1 Z28 to the 330Ci I could've had 800whp in the Camaro..but it had 160k miles, no AC, and only 2 working speakers. The BMW is a huge upgrade to say the least. And while the Z28 could actually put down that 800whp, it couldn't really handle. It wasn't bad, but the steering rack alone on the 3'er is 1000x better.

A lot of you seem to be thinking that a turbo kit will cost much more than what you've seen on TT or anywhere else. The fact is.. the whole point of a custom kit is that it is less expensive to make. You don't spend all of that effort building to pay more money. Tuning shops scare you with up front costs because they need to build these kits on a massive scale and test them endlessly. If they told you custom tuning a kit was a better solution, they wouldn't be very good at what they do, would they? That isn't to say it's always a better solution, but if you can do it, it will certainly be more cost effective.. and will probably put out more power.

Now that I think about it, 400whp would probably be more than enough power. The nice thing about getting a turbo to make that much is that you don't risk daily driveability like with a supercharger. Near-stock power is a turn of a knob away. Obviously the supercharger has its advantages as well, but getting stock mileage, and still being able to whoop up on a 350Z at a moments notice is always nice.


I'm going to do some research and keep you guys posted on whether or not the stud problem can be fixed.
Trust me, you will get use to the 400rwhp on a 330 very quickly. Since you are after the HP race, how can you say that 400rwhp is enough power when you are comparing the 800rwhp Camaro you could have built in your garage?

The stud problem is that if you use the ARP studs, they are simply too hard and will pull the threads in the head out. The OEM head bolts allow it to stretch with the soft Al block.

If you want, you can buy the extra M54 block I have that is already time-serted and you can R&D a kit to sell. It even comes with brand new OEM pistons.

I was able to whoop on stock 350Z in my older setup.
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:36 AM   #31
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I couldn't get my friend to race me My buddy drove both our cars. He thought I'd have him from a dig, but he'd get me up top. I'm hoping to find out next weekend.

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I was able to whoop on stock 350Z in my older setup.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:05 PM   #32
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Maybe from what you've heard, but I have heard everything from the head lifting to the block cracking.
I'm just curious who you heard of the head lifting from, because the data I have says we aren't producing enough cylinder pressure to achieve this. (Yet)

I suspect I may be the only person to see over 400rwtq on an M54...and my head hasn't lifted.

The only cracked blocks I know of are from over-reving an engine.

It is true that the M54 aluminum block has a potentially weaker structure than that of an iron block of similar design. But, this is only from a metalurgical point of view, and may not apply to this application. The only way to find out is to start stepping up the power ladder and taking carefull measurements along the way.

BTW, do you have deep pockets? This "ladder" isn't cheap.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:06 PM   #33
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hey, dont hate...this has been a long wait...and hopefully it will be done soon
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:33 PM   #34
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Activ3- If it was about sheer power, I wouldn't drive a BMW. Hell, for the amount I spent upgrade from my LT1 Z28 to the 330Ci I could've had 800whp in the Camaro..but it had 160k miles, no AC, and only 2 working speakers. The BMW is a huge upgrade to say the least. And while the Z28 could actually put down that 800whp, it couldn't really handle. It wasn't bad, but the steering rack alone on the 3'er is 1000x better.

A lot of you seem to be thinking that a turbo kit will cost much more than what you've seen on TT or anywhere else. The fact is.. the whole point of a custom kit is that it is less expensive to make. You don't spend all of that effort building to pay more money. Tuning shops scare you with up front costs because they need to build these kits on a massive scale and test them endlessly. If they told you custom tuning a kit was a better solution, they wouldn't be very good at what they do, would they? That isn't to say it's always a better solution, but if you can do it, it will certainly be more cost effective.. and will probably put out more power.

Now that I think about it, 400whp would probably be more than enough power. The nice thing about getting a turbo to make that much is that you don't risk daily driveability like with a supercharger. Near-stock power is a turn of a knob away. Obviously the supercharger has its advantages as well, but getting stock mileage, and still being able to whoop up on a 350Z at a moments notice is always nice.


I'm going to do some research and keep you guys posted on whether or not the stud problem can be fixed.

Notice the comparison cars I mentioned were also bmw's, that in stock form would outhandle the 330, and would also make more power for the $$. Also please explain how a supercharger risks daily driveability? Myself and many others on here have been running our SC kits for 30k+ miles A 323/325 with a $4000 SC kit will beat up on a stock 350z, and 328/330s will walk them HARD... ask me how I know. A custom kit would end up costing more $ and time than it's worth IMO, and that's even if you can find someone willing to tune your hardware.

As Brian stated, the problem isn't with the studs, it's with the threads in the block. I know of a particular car being built right now, hoping to get 450+rwhp with the b30 + turbo. It isn't going to be cheap, but it'll definitely be interesting to see how it turns out.

Adam's motor is an exception. It's not in our league anymore lol.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:47 PM   #35
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Good thread as I plan to go FI sometime next year
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:48 PM   #36
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Notice the comparison cars I mentioned were also bmw's, that in stock form would outhandle the 330, and would also make more power for the $$. Also please explain how a supercharger risks daily driveability? Myself and many others on here have been running our SC kits for 30k+ miles A 323/325 with a $4000 SC kit will beat up on a stock 350z, and 328/330s will walk them HARD... ask me how I know. A custom kit would end up costing more $ and time than it's worth IMO, and that's even if you can find someone willing to tune your hardware.

As Brian stated, the problem isn't with the studs, it's with the threads in the block. I know of a particular car being built right now, hoping to get 450+rwhp with the b30 + turbo. It isn't going to be cheap, but it'll definitely be interesting to see how it turns out.

Adam's motor is an exception. It's not in our league anymore lol.
I wanna try this race (please note others in thread, HR Z >> DE Z, 2003-2006 = DE, 2007-2008 = HR). I'm 99% sure I'd take Stan, it should be a decent race, but I still think I'd have an advantage ona b25 running 8 psi or less
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:57 PM   #37
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Notice the comparison cars I mentioned were also bmw's, that in stock form would outhandle the 330, and would also make more power for the $$. Also please explain how a supercharger risks daily driveability? Myself and many others on here have been running our SC kits for 30k+ miles A 323/325 with a $4000 SC kit will beat up on a stock 350z, and 328/330s will walk them HARD... ask me how I know. A custom kit would end up costing more $ and time than it's worth IMO, and that's even if you can find someone willing to tune your hardware.

As Brian stated, the problem isn't with the studs, it's with the threads in the block. I know of a particular car being built right now, hoping to get 450+rwhp with the b30 + turbo. It isn't going to be cheap, but it'll definitely be interesting to see how it turns out.

Adam's motor is an exception. It's not in our league anymore lol.
Can we just classify Adam's motor as a freak of nature?
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:02 PM   #38
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I wanna try this race (please note others in thread, HR Z >> DE Z, 2003-2006 = DE, 2007-2008 = HR). I'm 99% sure I'd take Stan, it should be a decent race, but I still think I'd have an advantage ona b25 running 8 psi or less
Stan someones calling u out, lets see a video would be a good one
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:03 PM   #39
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Stan someones calling u out, lets see a video would be a good one
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:22 PM   #40
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J.C.. I need to stop posting so late.

A couple of corrections. Activ3- I meant you won't get as good of mileage with a supercharger, as it is always on. A turbocharger can be virtually turned off and factory mpg will be retained. That isn't to say a better option, just something to think about.

As far as the 350Z.. I don't know why I mentioned that. They are a joke. Z06's are not out of range if the other guy can't drive.


To you guys who have more than 400hp, have you done anything to the bottom end?
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