Misconceptions about FI on an M54..

You have 7 mains, the real weakness in the lower half of the engine is the pistons, with the factory rods being next. The crank is good to tons and tons of power. As an example, guess what previous generation 3 series engine capable of well over 700 whp shares the same crank....

The factory rods aren't bad, but the 3.0 has a lot of rod angle because of the "long" stroke and low deck height. Thus you really do need a beefier rod when you start making some serious power. However, $500 gets a set of Eagles if you manage to fail the factory rods (which aren't weak by any means). I'd be more concerned with finding a good head lift solution (they are out there), and proper tuning solution. The rest is just putting together parts.

Also, exhaust ports really will limit you, the M54 head doesn't exactly flow like a champ.



And David/Gio, that is mostly because Stan rode with me and went "crap, you're gonna walk me."

I still wanna run and see, Enzo just needs to get his car back together now.

Originally Posted by Attaus

J.C.. I need to stop posting so late.

A couple of corrections. Activ3- I meant you won't get as good of mileage with a supercharger, as it is always on. A turbocharger can be virtually turned off and factory mpg will be retained. That isn't to say a better option, just something to think about.

As far as the 350Z.. I don't know why I mentioned that. They are a joke. Z06's are not out of range if the other guy can't drive.


To you guys who have more than 400hp, have you done anything to the bottom end?

Only changed to LC pistons. Stock rods, crank, and new OEM headgasket. Just port and polish the exhaust ports and polish the intake ports.

Noice.. so it sounds like the M54 can be pretty capable. As I've said, it won't compete with the iron-blocked M3, but it's not as weak as some of the rumors floating around.

With a little more info hopefully we can sticky this so in the future guys aren't afraid to throw over 400 ponies at this or make assumptions that it can only take 340hp at the crank.

I guess the next question is when the rods start to give out. Essentially, with a rebuild this motor can take 450 at the crank? Also we've yet to mention any of the drivetrain components.. where did you guys get your clutches or upgrade your autos if that's the case?

Originally Posted by Attaus

Noice.. so it sounds like the M54 can be pretty capable. As I've said, it won't compete with the iron-blocked M3, but it's not as weak as some of the rumors floating around.

With a little more info hopefully we can sticky this so in the future guys aren't afraid to throw over 400 ponies at this or make assumptions that it can only take 340hp at the crank.

I guess the next question is when the rods start to give out. Essentially, with a rebuild this motor can take 450 at the crank? Also we've yet to mention any of the drivetrain components.. where did you guys get your clutches or upgrade your autos if that's the case?

Uh, at 400rwhp, you are about at 470bhp. Am I missing something here?

Typical s/c kits for 330 are 360bhp.

I just have Clutchmasters clutch, but a lot of people hate it because it screeches. HIGHLY doubt the auto can even hold that much. I blew mines out on my older setup.

I just said 450.. at 15% loss 400whp is 460hp.

But again I'm just making up numbers, not going off anything specific. I think the twin screw kits make 360 though, not the cent. or turbo kits.


The Clutchmasters is the only one I've seen. I didn't think the auto could hold it either, but with the number of auto's out there with FI I wouldn't doubt somebody is going to try. It would probably overheat within a couple of miles of high boost. lol

Originally Posted by aggieE46

I think you mean the wallet.

Lol. That is a problem I wish I had! As long as its internal pressure and not external.
X

Originally Posted by GTUnit

The materials used dont mean anything if the structure cannot support the forces involved. The body on my car is made of steel. I can punch a large size dent in the side of it. If that body were 1/4 thick of the same material I would break my hand. See the difference? The shape/structure also matters.

So we need a thicker block. Your analigy isn't structure but quanity/size. I see what your saying but ally will still be just as soft. Now a larger dia. stud or more of them will help but this isn't a viable solution. The timesert suggestion is probably the best economical and logical solution.

Originally Posted by gtunit

Coming out of a turbo the IAT will be closer to 100 degrees.
Aluminum is better for turbocharging because it conducts heat away from the combustion chamber faster. Lower burn temperatures allow you to run more boost or a higher compression ratio.

Cast iron is always better unless your conserving weight in a na motor. That heat is what you want. Heat is what...? Energy... it increases pressure which drives the turbo. There are other routes to lower charge temps without sacrificing the turbo. But the need for cast iron vs ally from this standpoint is highly competative and application specific IMO.

I just don't see our engines being 500+ hp motors and being reliable at that. As said earlier builders and tuning companys don't see our engines as having enough potiential and this makes non-m somewhat of an afterthought. But there are those of us who would like a 400hp setup which I fell is good as it needs to be for anyone who still plans to dd their car and if its from a turbo then the added torque will be a nice plus in our engines. But as I pointed out the kits are just too expensive for what you get and in comparission to the value of the car in question. I understand the developers put time and effort into producing and need to get paid for what I'm sure is a very well made system. Its just that it don't take rocket science to construct your own. Which is how this will have to be approched. No company in their right mind will ever make a non-m kit that pushes this close to the limit, there are no records to be set that will outweigh the potiential for mechanical failure (ex. HPF M3).

So yea I would like to know what maxes we can obtain but for me achieving these limits is just not logical or useful in my situation. If my car was a race car it would have the best engine for a foundation and we know that would be an s54 so this debate wouldn't even be relivant.

Le sigh... fine, I'll just have to build a 700whp M54 to shut you guys up

Please check this out, I think it could be informative and fun.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...8#post10041978

in

You can get 300hp N/A and it really isn't that expensive if you think about it. I mean in comparison to other cars yes, but imagine a 300hp starting point and then FI

300 NA whp is not easily attainable on the M54.

Headers, ehxaust, cams, intake, pulleys, throttle body, and a few other little tricks might net you 260ish. That's not going into head-work.

Originally Posted by xJustin

You can get 300hp N/A and it really isn't that expensive if you think about it. I mean in comparison to other cars yes, but imagine a 300hp starting point and then FI

Not to rain on your parade guys but i remember reading that the 335 was supposed to use the m54 block, although they did many tests to find it was unstable with heat for two turbos. Which is why they went against the m54, i know it is possible to push more power from our cars but the real scientists are the ones who work for BMW and BMW has for sure thrown millions into there prized possession 335 and it still overheats. Regardless that i am talking about a 335, they tried to use our 330 engine and found it couldn't handle it, so how can we assume we can add a ton of hp and hope it doesn't fail. I know i am being a hypocrite but it seems out of reach.

seems 2 me that folks who have money 2 put 8 grand into a 330 could either get an m3, or do an s54 swap. i do agree that the tuning market should be much better and much more accessable, but i would b fine with 350 hp comin from my car, its a daily.

GTU>>>,

You seem to really understand the different aspects of an engine even if you have been a little harsh. Do you know the angle of our piston cylinders? I don't the mechanical term but what degree do our piston move up and down in the cylinder head with 90 degress being completely vertical? I would think this would have a effect on the stress on the crank and rods.

While i do agree with some of your other points i wished bmw where expolited like the B series in Honda's where. Those engines have been able to hold termendous power with just resleeving the block and boaring the oil jackets in the block etc.

For those honda lovers I had a B18 long block with the CTR head and a 5 angle value job. I ran CTR exhaust manifold because it is the best hands down. Skunk 2 exaust and cam, cam gears. also eagle rods with Enydne Pistons. This motor was a monster it outran everything! ( Oh yeah for those truely knowing their stuff it was blue printed for rpm range of 6-9k.)

Also instead of replacing the pistons how many members have increased the head gasket thickness? This could also be an intentional weak-spot so to prevent head lifting which I'm not familiar with!


Lastly building your own turbo kit will always be cheaper and better than a prefabricated kit (not sure on HP Kits and the 40,000 price though). If you know what your doing and know how to adjust the turbo specs to achieve the proper flow based on your head and powerband desire. Simply putting a T67 or whatever the biggest baddeest turbo on the market currently is, is a sign of ignorance unless you have designed your motor to utilize that turbo.

Originally Posted by Afrothunderr86

seems 2 me that folks who have money 2 put 8 grand into a 330 could either get an m3, or do an s54 swap. i do agree that the tuning market should be much better and much more accessable, but i would b fine with 350 hp comin from my car, its a daily.

Yes they most likely can afford this option but we are discussing the ability to turbo the stock engine. These are completely different discussion and goes back to the honda verse mustang debate. Not trying to bash or hate just want to get this thread in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Attaus

To you guys who have more than 400hp, have you done anything to the bottom end?

I sandblasted the exterior of my oil pan. The bumpy surface increased total surface area which increased cooling capacity.

Hehe.

Originally Posted by pei330ci

I sandblasted the exterior of my oil pan. The bumpy surface increased total surface area which increased cooling capacity.

hey all...so today I found out what was making a phit phit sound when I had the windows down...the piece o cr@p ebay headers have a leak on both front and rear where the pipes come together...now I wish I had done it right and found a set of Ss or Technik headers...

Originally Posted by Afrothunderr86

seems 2 me that folks who have money 2 put 8 grand into a 330 could either get an m3, or do an s54 swap. i do agree that the tuning market should be much better and much more accessable, but i would b fine with 350 hp comin from my car, its a daily.

If you do an S54 swap, then you're $8,000 out and only have 330hp at the crank.

Then what? Turbo the S54? Those kits start at $15,000. So you're talking $22,000.. not $8,000.

Theoretically you could have a 400whp 330Ci for < $8,000, if you can source parts and do everything right.

Originally Posted by aggieE46

Hehe.

What?!!

It's true.

Originally Posted by 330i ZHP

hey all...so today I found out what was making a phit phit sound when I had the windows down...the piece o cr@p ebay headers have a leak on both front and rear where the pipes come together...now I wish I had done it right and found a set of Ss or Technik headers...

Cough Kromer Kraft Cough Cough