E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-06-2009, 04:26 PM   #1
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
1st, 2nd, 3rd Gear Binding on Disengagement

Hi all. This issue has gradually got worse so it's time for some forum help. Sometimes, when trying to disengage 1st/2nd/3rd gear, more strength is required for disengagement. This is not the case with 4th/5th which come out very smooth and nice.

Facts:

-> I have Rogue Engineering SSK (short shifts but require no extra push)
-> Redline MTL Gearbox fluid (actually made shifting better)
-> This happens under any driving conditions (heavy load, deceleration, engine braking, acceleration etc)
-> When cold (i.e. mornings) and I attempt to engage reverse gear, the car actually moves a bit while clutch is still all the way down, like the pressure plate still has some friction on the flywheel
-> when cold, it's impossible to get into reverse from 1st attempt, I have to pump the clutch 2-3 times
-> 1st gear sometimes doesn't like to engage and I have to double clutch

-> Clutch slave cylinder is stock, 70k miles
-> Fluid has been changed (Motul RBF)
-> I bled the system twice
-> No CDV
-> Under hard acceleration in 3rd gear, gear lever vibrates

-> Original gearbox mounts
-> New OEM clutch fitted 50k miles ago but the TS2 was installed at about the same time.

I think I covered all the facts, any hints/tips?
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Ads by Google

Guests, get your FREE E46Fanatics.com membership to remove this ad.
Old 10-06-2009, 05:15 PM   #2
TxZHP04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DFW
Posts: 5,728
My Ride: ESS TS2+ ZHP
I think you may have multiple issues. First, given the mileage, I'd recommend fresh transmission and motor mounts.

As to the binding and difficult engagement, it sounds like the clutch isn't fully releasing. Was the flywheel machined at all when the clutch was replaced? Given that you have a stock setup and mentioned that pumping the clutch helps in certain circumstances, I would think it's likely to be a hydraulic issue. Assuming the system has been well bled, that just leaves a weak master or slave cylinder or possibly a bad clutch line. With a stock clutch, you may also have a problem with the SAC mechanism although I've only heard stories of this burning up clutches - nothing as extreme as what you're experiencing.

You could try removing the stock clutch stop. This would give you a few extra mm of clutch travel which, if it helped, might confirm that the problem is indeed related to the clutch not fully disengaging. Not a good permanent solution but it might yield useful info.

Those are my thoughts on your situation which is somewhat similar to my recent problems. My problems seem to be strictly related to aftermarket parts though. I'm currently waiting on a stock clutch to show up to replace the CM unit which seems to be causing my problems....
__________________
04 IR 330i ZHP | ESS TS2+ SC | MagnaFlow "headers" | KMS 3.64 LSD | AST 4100 550/650| APEX ARC-8 18x9 | H&R front sway bar | Vorshlag camber plates, RTAB limiters | TMS subframe & swaybar reinforcements | UUC SSK & DSSR | UUC TM & TME | BW motor mounts | Dinan strut & shock tower bars | vaio 4-bolt oil pump
TxZHP04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 12:47 AM   #3
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
I think you may have multiple issues. First, given the mileage, I'd recommend fresh transmission and motor mounts.

As to the binding and difficult engagement, it sounds like the clutch isn't fully releasing. Was the flywheel machined at all when the clutch was replaced? Given that you have a stock setup and mentioned that pumping the clutch helps in certain circumstances, I would think it's likely to be a hydraulic issue. Assuming the system has been well bled, that just leaves a weak master or slave cylinder or possibly a bad clutch line. With a stock clutch, you may also have a problem with the SAC mechanism although I've only heard stories of this burning up clutches - nothing as extreme as what you're experiencing.

You could try removing the stock clutch stop. This would give you a few extra mm of clutch travel which, if it helped, might confirm that the problem is indeed related to the clutch not fully disengaging. Not a good permanent solution but it might yield useful info.

Those are my thoughts on your situation which is somewhat similar to my recent problems. My problems seem to be strictly related to aftermarket parts though. I'm currently waiting on a stock clutch to show up to replace the CM unit which seems to be causing my problems....
I plan to replace the motor mounts, transmission mounts, and all the rear bushes, diff mounts, center support bearing, diff seals etc.

The flywheel is stock, no machining whatsoever. Don't know if it's related or not, but I remembered it now, it only happes in 1st gear, when slowly releasing clutch the engagement is not smooth, it rather chatters and vibrates. I never thought to remove the clutch stop to check so I'll do that as well as you correctly put it, it might yield useful information. It has become really annoying and I don't want to damage more components such as gearbox synchros.

If the issue is hydraulic, wouldn't affect all gears though? How difficult is to replace clutch master/slave cylinders? Got a lot of issues at the same time there goes my bonus

So you are still waiting for the stock clutch? I thought CM would provide a workaround or something
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 01:12 PM   #4
TxZHP04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DFW
Posts: 5,728
My Ride: ESS TS2+ ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraklas View Post
Don't know if it's related or not, but I remembered it now, it only happes in 1st gear, when slowly releasing clutch the engagement is not smooth, it rather chatters and vibrates.
Sounds like the SAC mechanism doing its thing. My factory installed clutch did this once every few weeks until I finally got rid of it recently. Honestly don't know if you are supposed to feel this but this is one of the main reasons I was trying to move away from the stock clutch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraklas View Post
If the issue is hydraulic, wouldn't affect all gears though? How difficult is to replace clutch master/slave cylinders?
Until recently, I would have agreed with that statement. Replacing the slave isn't bad, not sure about the master. Could also be that your pumping the pedal observation was really more about timing/gear synchronization than building up pressure... so many things could possibly cause this disengagement problem (clutch disc in backwards, warped disc, input shaft not properly seated in pilot bearing, bad throwout bearing, bad pilot bearing, etc, etc). I hate to suggest replacing parts without a concrete diagnosis but clutch problems are starting to seem to be very problematic to pinpoint.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paraklas View Post
So you are still waiting for the stock clutch? I thought CM would provide a workaround or something
Yep, CM is providing my shop with the stock clutch and apparently they dropped the ball on this. I've been promised that my shop will have it by Friday so I'm tentatively scheduled for the swap next Monday.
__________________
04 IR 330i ZHP | ESS TS2+ SC | MagnaFlow "headers" | KMS 3.64 LSD | AST 4100 550/650| APEX ARC-8 18x9 | H&R front sway bar | Vorshlag camber plates, RTAB limiters | TMS subframe & swaybar reinforcements | UUC SSK & DSSR | UUC TM & TME | BW motor mounts | Dinan strut & shock tower bars | vaio 4-bolt oil pump
TxZHP04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 05:33 PM   #5
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,471
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Upgraded to Vorshlag motor mounts and UUC clutch/flywheel which made a HUGE difference. Also replaced the diff bushings which were shot.

I've read that the drivetrain mounts get kind of iffy after 60k.
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 01:42 AM   #6
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
The rear differential mount has a huge crack on the rubber part which makes me think this is the source for the noises I hear when engaging gears. to be honest the rear part of the car hasn't been touched since 2001 except for the alignment.

The Vorshlag motor mounts are rubber or polyurethane? What about vibrations propagaded through them?
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg

Last edited by paraklas; 10-09-2009 at 01:49 AM.
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 02:52 AM   #7
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,471
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
I have the red urethane mounts. There is a noticable increase in NVH. If you try to accelerate from below 2k rpm, there is a very pronounced vibration. Whether its tolerable or not for a DD depends. If you are sensitive to squeaks and noises then the Vorshlag mounts are not for you. I'm kind of indifferent.
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2009, 01:48 AM   #8
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
hmm well definately not for me!

I just ordered M3 transmission mounts, reinforced rear shock mounts (irrelevant but existing are done) center support bearing and a stainless steel clutch line from TMS. Also ordered a clutch slave and master cylinder, new engine mounts, and soon rear differential mounts. I'll check from there what to do next.
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 01:30 AM   #9
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
Just a mini update, weather got a lot more cold and my issue(s) have escalated from swearing to head banging. 1,2,3 gears have become more sticky, and when I slowly pull the lever, I can still feel the gearbox engaged. Reverse and first gear when cold are very difficult to engage. Pumping the clutch a couple of times does help. I am a bit reluctant to drop the transmission for a new clutch at this point so I will do the following:

1. Replace clutch master cylinder (already bought)
2. Replace clutch slave cylinder (must buy, why so expensive)
3. SS Clutch line
4. Transmission mounts
5. Motor mounts

Gearbox fluid was changed a year ago with Redline MTL which at that point in time smoothed out gear engagement big time, but that improvement faded over time to end up in the today's situation. Also, I am unable to spin my tires, like the clutch plate is not strong enough to fully bind to the flywheel (NO slipping). I think I got too many issues
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 08:20 AM   #10
mrshelley
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 914
My Ride: 2004 330i
Here's what I'd do.
1. Change the transmission oil with Royal Purple Syncromax or OEM BMW fluid. I've had no complaints using those gearbox oils. The Syncromax is cheaper and readily available.
2. Change the clutch and pressure plate. While you are in there, change out the throw out bearing (which should come in the clutch kit) and the nylon pin that the clutch fork pivots on. The stock clutch is more than suffice for street and track use.
3. Check the flywheel. If it's stock dual mass flywheel, make sure it's not going out. most of the time when they go out, the car loses all drive.

Note about the pressure plate. The older ones had a nylon adjuster ring in them. For about the last 5 years or so, Luk has gone to a steel adjuster ring and they work much better.

If the clutch is not releasing all of the way, you will ruin the transmission. After doing all of this and your car is still difficult to shift, time to start looking for a used unit.
__________________
mrshelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 08:49 AM   #11
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
I'll start with the oil and whatever parts I already have before dropping the transmission. The clutch I have is the Luk one which replaced the stock Sachs. There's only 1 type of RP for manual transmissions?

Definitely clutch is not releasing well, can be demonstrated in the mornings where I engage reverse and car moves before I start releasing the pedal.
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 09:41 AM   #12
lutzperformance
Lutz Performance-FL BMW F/I
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,100
My Ride: 1995 BMW M3, 04 Z06
Send a message via AIM to lutzperformance
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraklas View Post
I'll start with the oil and whatever parts I already have before dropping the transmission. The clutch I have is the Luk one which replaced the stock Sachs. There's only 1 type of RP for manual transmissions?

Definitely clutch is not releasing well, can be demonstrated in the mornings where I engage reverse and car moves before I start releasing the pedal.
I would definitely try changing the slave first before you drop the transmission, with the problems you described I honestly wouldn't waste your time changing the fluid as, I really don't think that will get you anywhere. Make sure you don't have a hydraulic fluid line leak, so check from the reservoir, the clutch pedal master cylinder, and the slave cylinder line. Inside the transmission you have the throwout bearing, clutch fork, and pressure plate. Do you hear any noise when sitting idle? How bout when you don't select a gear but only depress the clutch.
lutzperformance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 09:56 AM   #13
TxZHP04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DFW
Posts: 5,728
My Ride: ESS TS2+ ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraklas View Post
Gearbox fluid was changed a year ago with Redline MTL which at that point in time smoothed out gear engagement big time, but that improvement faded over time to end up in the today's situation.
How many miles on that RL fluid? Honestly, I find that RL, RP, etc only seem good for ~ 10k miles before they need to be changed again. If I run them much longer than that, the ability to shift smoothly really degrades. This shouldn't have any bearing on your clutch not releasing but it may be one of several problems that need to be addressed.

On a side note, I never liked the RL fluid in my transmission. I like the RP but it doesn't have the longevity of the stock fluid although it does perform better in cold weather (as compared to the BMW LT-1 fluid). I've been contemplating trying the BMW LT-2 at my next fluid change as it's supposed to have slightly better cold weather performance.
__________________
04 IR 330i ZHP | ESS TS2+ SC | MagnaFlow "headers" | KMS 3.64 LSD | AST 4100 550/650| APEX ARC-8 18x9 | H&R front sway bar | Vorshlag camber plates, RTAB limiters | TMS subframe & swaybar reinforcements | UUC SSK & DSSR | UUC TM & TME | BW motor mounts | Dinan strut & shock tower bars | vaio 4-bolt oil pump
TxZHP04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 10:17 AM   #14
TxZHP04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DFW
Posts: 5,728
My Ride: ESS TS2+ ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrshelley View Post
Note about the pressure plate. The older ones had a nylon adjuster ring in them. For about the last 5 years or so, Luk has gone to a steel adjuster ring and they work much better.
This is very good to hear since I ended up ditching the CM clutch and returning to stock. One of the biggest reasons I wanted to go aftermarket was to get rid of the flakey SAC. With any luck, my new BMW clutch won't have the same problems that I experienced with the original factory clutch.
__________________
04 IR 330i ZHP | ESS TS2+ SC | MagnaFlow "headers" | KMS 3.64 LSD | AST 4100 550/650| APEX ARC-8 18x9 | H&R front sway bar | Vorshlag camber plates, RTAB limiters | TMS subframe & swaybar reinforcements | UUC SSK & DSSR | UUC TM & TME | BW motor mounts | Dinan strut & shock tower bars | vaio 4-bolt oil pump
TxZHP04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2009, 11:31 AM   #15
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by lutzperformance View Post
I would definitely try changing the slave first before you drop the transmission, with the problems you described I honestly wouldn't waste your time changing the fluid as, I really don't think that will get you anywhere. Make sure you don't have a hydraulic fluid line leak, so check from the reservoir, the clutch pedal master cylinder, and the slave cylinder line. Inside the transmission you have the throwout bearing, clutch fork, and pressure plate. Do you hear any noise when sitting idle? How bout when you don't select a gear but only depress the clutch.
What about the master cylinder? I remember it caused a lot of issues when I had the E30, from spongy clutch feeling to complete loss of pressure. There are no leaks at all as I monitor all fluids at least once a week. I know about that noise you are describing, like a chatter, but no. There is no noise at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
How many miles on that RL fluid? Honestly, I find that RL, RP, etc only seem good for ~ 10k miles before they need to be changed again. If I run them much longer than that, the ability to shift smoothly really degrades. This shouldn't have any bearing on your clutch not releasing but it may be one of several problems that need to be addressed.

On a side note, I never liked the RL fluid in my transmission. I like the RP but it doesn't have the longevity of the stock fluid although it does perform better in cold weather (as compared to the BMW LT-1 fluid). I've been contemplating trying the BMW LT-2 at my next fluid change as it's supposed to have slightly better cold weather performance.
I changed it on 10th July, 2008, had 112114km on the clock, now 141000km so its more than a year and around 30k km (~20k miles). I believe now LT-2 is the only fluid available from dealership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
This is very good to hear since I ended up ditching the CM clutch and returning to stock. One of the biggest reasons I wanted to go aftermarket was to get rid of the flakey SAC. With any luck, my new BMW clutch won't have the same problems that I experienced with the original factory clutch.
Good luck with that! Clutch issues are amongst the worst (as you said before)
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2009, 04:00 PM   #16
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
Quick question (maybe stupid).. How does clutch wear relate to clutch not disengaging? The clutch starts to transfer power to the gearbox before it travels the middle of the total travel distance.

I also noticed that when I put the first gear or reverse, car starts to move veeeery slowly, If I give it some gas it will move a bit faster, another confirmation that clutch is engaged. I'm more inclined to believe that theres some serious loss of hydraulic pressure from master or slave cylinder - perhaps both ? Changing the gearbox oil seems kinda meaningless now..
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2010, 01:54 AM   #17
glass330
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Prairie Village KS
Posts: 181
My Ride: 323ci to 01 330i
bump
glass330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2010, 03:28 AM   #18
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
Car is at my mechanic pending installation of Sachs performance clutch, clutch slave cylinder, transmission mounts, engine mounts, center bearing, throwout bearing, clutch lines, diff mounts.

Now, my clutch was slipping badly, either from roll or still, but when we took it apart, the disk was not that worn, so I guess I have a weakened pressure plate spring. Can't tell if problem is fixed once car is done next week
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2010, 01:43 PM   #19
glass330
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Prairie Village KS
Posts: 181
My Ride: 323ci to 01 330i
updates please please!!
glass330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 12:16 AM   #20
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,913
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
And it's done. What a f*cking nightmare getting the bell housing to slide into the guide pin.

I absolutely love the feeling of the new clutch. Needs a bit more strength to press the pedal but nothing to worry about, in fact it feels much more solid. There are no rattles and gears engage ultra smooth. Is there a bedding procedure for clutch? or normal city driving will do?
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use