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Old 05-10-2010, 10:10 AM   #81
BimmerDude18
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David, Julio, and Adam need to answer that for you. David has, Adam may agree.

Personally I'd timesert them And run raceware. Search bimmerforums (I think it was the race/track subforum) for timesert m52 aluminum block head bolt solution. There is a kit with a drill plate and timeserts.

Google timesert, it is a pretty nice setup.
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:25 PM   #82
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Thanks for the info guys! I will add this step to the project!
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:17 PM   #83
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This is my own view on the topic, so please understand it is an opinion based loosely on my own experience and second hand information. I haven't done stress testing myself, so I don't have a solid answer.

I am told that when the block is overheated, the alloy softens. I confirmed with a number of professional race teams what this value was, and they all seem to agree that anything in the 240 degree area with regard to water temps was really bad.

Now I haven't experienced this myself with a running engine, but it does seem to be the case for those that have had to re-thread a block.

So in this case, if a person did have a stud pull out, it is my opinion that the block is compromised and should not be re-used.

If a person wanted more securely fasten the head to the block, it is my opinion that most direct way to do this is to use big (thicker) head studs. This does 2 things: 1.) Increases the tensile load capabilities of the fastener. 2.) Increases the total thread area in contact with the block.

#2 is basically what you are doing with a timecert, but then you are still using the same diameter fastener as before.

For those that have chosen studs and timecerts, it is going to be stronger than OEM. Even stronger would be larger head studs and no timecerts.

From weakest to strongest in my opinion:

1.) OEM
2.) 10mm Head studs (I prefer Raceware)
3.) 10mm head studs + timecert
4.) 11mm head studs

You can get 11mm head studs directly from Raceware for a little bit more than the normal 10mm head studs. With both timecerts and 11mm studs, you will have to re-thread the block. This is best done with the block completely torn down for other machine work like boring/honing for new pistons.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:42 PM   #84
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Adam the only reason I didn't mention 11 mm stuff is that it means you have to play with the alignment dowels and with the holes in the head (redrill them right?) and it starts to get messier.

I really like what Julio has on his block, steel "bolts" that are threaded like 3" into the block, then drilled and tapped to allow head studs to be used on them. Its a nice alternative to timecerts that his machinist came up with.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:08 PM   #85
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so i do have the block out and to the machine shop, what exactly should i ask them to do?
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:36 PM   #86
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Adam the only reason I didn't mention 11 mm stuff is that it means you have to play with the alignment dowels and with the holes in the head (redrill them right?) and it starts to get messier.

I really like what Julio has on his block, steel "bolts" that are threaded like 3" into the block, then drilled and tapped to allow head studs to be used on them. Its a nice alternative to timecerts that his machinist came up with.
The alignment dowels are fine. Their role is to keep the head straight before tightening the fasteners, they don't hold any load.

The OD is 13.5mm, the same as for the S54.

If a person was really ambitious, you can mill a set to fit 12mm studs, but I don't think those are necessary at these power levels. Keep in mind Titan is making 2000+hp on their 2jz with 12mm studs....

That's 11hp per CI, and so far the M54 has made it to 2.75 hp / CI with nitrous.

Very cool idea on Julio's block.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:46 PM   #87
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so i do have the block out and to the machine shop, what exactly should i ask them to do?
That depends on your goals.

You stated before that you were looking for 450whp, which I think is a really good number to aim for with a street car. I know for a fact that Raceware 10mm head studs will hold this. (I made 430+rwtq...)

I recommend sticking with Raceware 10mm head studs for your goals.

If you want to make 600+rwhp, then I'd look at doing what Julio did, or getting 11mm head studs.

I'm just silly, so I went right to 11mm for my race engine, which will never be street driven and will likely be torn down every 1000kms.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:38 AM   #88
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Thanks PEI! Yes i was thinking i want 450 rwhp but after finding out the clutch holds 500 whp i do not want to get close to the limit so i feel 425 is for the best. The tuner seems to think that i could easily get 500 whp if i wanted, with all the upgrades i have already done. Also just found out we will be adding a sq6 traction control unit that the pectel runs using the stock abs! Launch control woohoo!
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:03 PM   #89
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wow it has been a month already! sorry there has been no updates. I got the head back from head works here in bloomington mn, they bench tested, and flow tested put in titanium competition valves, shaved the valwve holes, and the exhaust ports. Basically anthing they could do to the head to make more powe rthey did! The car is finally painted, and the motot rebuilt. It will be going back into the car next week, i will have pics. I have then decided to break in the engine for 2000 miles instead of the 500 that was recommended, as i have waited this long why not wait a little longer and be safe. This will push the tuning back a month or so. As soon as i have it retuned i will post pics of the dyno and show the car to a few people who asked to see it when it was done, like hi its me alex and sheefo. Soon very soon i will let the monster out of the cage lol!
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:50 AM   #90
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Here is another update, i spoke with frozen rotors a company based in MN that does cryogenically frozen brake pads! They told me that they also do this for all non- load bearing metal pieces on the engine, they said they do this alot to high horse power drag and racing engines. I have done a ton of research, has any one heard of this or know any advers effects? I have found none. I am pulling the trigger on this as it is 625 for the entire engine!
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Old 06-22-2010, 06:00 PM   #91
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Here is another update, i spoke with frozen rotors a company based in MN that does cryogenically frozen brake pads! They told me that they also do this for all non- load bearing metal pieces on the engine, they said they do this alot to high horse power drag and racing engines. I have done a ton of research, has any one heard of this or know any advers effects? I have found none. I am pulling the trigger on this as it is 625 for the entire engine!
I would NOT do this to the entire engine.

Steel pieces are OK, aluminum ones like your block are not. The reason why is that they not only freeze the pieces, then also have to do a heat treat on them afterwards. The heat treating process on our blocks will actually cause them to fail. (M54 blocks HATE to be overheated)

Could you post up the flow numbers you got for your cylinder head?
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:08 PM   #92
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Are you 100% sure on this? Have you heard of someone with our motors that has done this and it failed? Please let me know asap as i have until friday of this week to cancel, as they do the process over the weekends.

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Old 06-23-2010, 02:36 PM   #93
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Adam is right. Your rods are. Steel, and probably not much else.

Personally, I don't see you pushing the power envelope for forged internals. The head stud thread engagement is the weakest area "we" know of with these motors. I'd say you are fine without doing the cryo treatment and I wouldn't risk it myself.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:14 PM   #94
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engine will be back in the car saturday, then the break in period starts! I have Apex speed tech in Cali booked to fly out and retune once broken in we set a date of August 28th for the tuning! Stay tuned for more pics of engine rebuild and new color of the car, also dynos to follow!
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:14 PM   #95
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Anyone want to guess the whp after the new tune?
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:45 PM   #96
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3.0L engine
GT35R turbo
how much boost?
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:26 AM   #97
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the tuner thinks we should stay around 13psi
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:01 AM   #98
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You'll be in your 400rwhp ballpark
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:04 AM   #99
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Dangit Adam beat me, I was going to say 400-410, depending on tune you could be plus or minus a bit.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:13 AM   #100
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I'm in MN too, I'd like to see this beast in action!
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