My search for more NA power (Dyno time)

Nice! Its good to see that overall the new exhaust did its jobs and suits your car well (for what you need it for)

Can't wait to see what some tuning does!!

Great work! I love threads like these...


Quick (amateur) question: Are the post-header diameters the same size on your car? I noticed that mine have different sizes... On my headers AND the Bastuck midpipes

This is pretty fun to see. Without using this feature I didn't realize how much of a difference I was making. I put the cursor at the biggest difference. A little over 6wtq and 5whp. At 6000rpm (which is the last point it'll let me compare) I'm making about 3whp/3tq more.

this graph is just the difference between having you new exhaust/old exhaust right? both were done post TB.

BTW how much does stett charge for welding something like this. I am starting my e30 soon, and was going to do a similar exhaust on it.

Yep.

I'll PM you about the welding.

Originally Posted by aggieE46

This is pretty fun to see. Without using this feature I didn't realize how much of a difference I was making. I put the cursor at the biggest difference. A little over 6wtq and 5whp. At 6000rpm (which is the last point it'll let me compare) I'm making about 3whp/3tq more.

Cool! nice to see a payoff!

Nice

When I swapped my OBD2 manifolds for the euro headers I actualy lost a few hp until I changed the tune. Headers were making it run too rich. Leaning it gained the lost power back and then some, but it responded very nicely to retarding the exhaust cam at that point.

I think you have power to gain from tweaking your VANOS.

I believe Brady said there is a tune in the works.

Originally Posted by mvrk10256

I believe Brady said there is a tune in the works.

Yes, there are lots of variables in a tune, it helps to know what has worked for others.... This plot shows what retarding the exhaust cam by 4 degrees (8 crank degrees) did. Not other changes. Previous to the exhaust upgrade retarding the exhaust cam LOST power.



This was done with the M50 throttle body and full e36 OBD2 exhaust. I've probably gained around 10hp since then with an M54 TB and better exhaust, plus a VR crank sensor instead of Hall.

This is awsome news! Brady can you get a video of the set up whenever you get the chance? I also want to see what the new y pipe will do in the future. Maybe your place could make another one, I would definitely pay to get it done.

I'm happy you actually did make some gains. I was starting to feel kinda stupid, selling you exhaust stuff that was just made you lose power.

Also, that dyno by hoveringuy is pretty interesting, and it makes a good deal of sense to me. Though, the M50 didn't have a variable position exhaust camshaft like the M54, so I wonder how much of a difference it would make on an M54, if it is even possible.

you can't retard the timing in an engine with VVT/Vanos. You would have to remove the vanos/VVT. Doing that would be stupid. It's the best of both worlds you can get low end tq and when you get into the revs you will get the top end you want. If you have a dedicated track car pick a cam that gives you what you want in the rpm range you need/want and tune from there. Without vanos/vvt, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You will either lose something on the bottom or something on the top. There is no cam that will give you power through more than 2 to 2.5k rpms. The guys that are messing with the timing have a specific purpose with a specific rpm. If you add nitrous you can mess with the timing to pick up a little hp while off the bottle. That's why some people that are running timing for nitrous and don't spray can pick up a few hp by changing the timing. IIRC the duration is longer with juice set ups to allow the intake valve to stay open a little longer.

Originally Posted by mkodama

I'm happy you actually did make some gains. I was starting to feel kinda stupid, selling you exhaust stuff that was just made you lose power.

Also, that dyno by hoveringuy is pretty interesting, and it makes a good deal of sense to me. Though, the M50 didn't have a variable position exhaust camshaft like the M54, so I wonder how much of a difference it would make on an M54, if it is even possible.

It is an M54. It's an M54 running OBD1 electronics and my own VANOS controller. I'm able to adjust the VANOS timing on the fly... push of the button in the cockpit. That's why it was so easy for me to run different cam settings at the dyno to see that retarding the exhaust cam was doing.

I look at the results and change the profiles on the cams. I can run whatever exhaust retard/intake advance I want, whenever I want.

The only thing that was M50 was the throttle body, because my electronic throttle body controller wasn't done.

www.seattlecircuit.com

Originally Posted by hoveringuy

It is an M54. It's an M54 running OBD1 electronics and my own VANOS controller. I'm able to adjust the VANOS timing on the fly... push of the button in the cockpit. That's why it was so easy for me to run different cam settings at the dyno to see that retarding the exhaust cam was doing.

I look at the results and change the profiles on the cams. I can run whatever exhaust retard/intake advance I want, whenever I want.

The only thing that was M50 was the throttle body, because my electronic throttle body controller wasn't done.

www.seattlecircuit.com

So does this vanos circuit only work with obd1??

Originally Posted by xixixi

you can't retard the timing in an engine with VVT/Vanos. You would have to remove the vanos/VVT. Doing that would be stupid. It's the best of both worlds you can get low end tq and when you get into the revs you will get the top end you want. If you have a dedicated track car pick a cam that gives you what you want in the rpm range you need/want and tune from there. Without vanos/vvt, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You will either lose something on the bottom or something on the top. There is no cam that will give you power through more than 2 to 2.5k rpms. The guys that are messing with the timing have a specific purpose with a specific rpm. If you add nitrous you can mess with the timing to pick up a little hp while off the bottle. That's why some people that are running timing for nitrous and don't spray can pick up a few hp by changing the timing. IIRC the duration is longer with juice set ups to allow the intake valve to stay open a little longer.

Yes you can retard the timing on a VANOS equipped engine.

Agreed about the cams when looking at them by themselves; they have a sweet spot of about 2000 RPM. Normally you will find peak torque to be 1500 RPM below peak HP with fixed cam timing.

Look at the torque output of the N52 engines. With 2 stages of resonance tuning in the intake manifold, variable valve timing, and variable lift, (not a performance benefit at WOT) it's torque band is over 3000 RPM wide. The trick there is the tuning....

I am the only person I know of to experiment with Nitrous on M54s with the ability to "tune". Who else are you referencing that has changed timing on an M54 running nitrous?

Changing cam timing has NO effect on the valve opening and closing duration.

Originally Posted by xixixi

So does this vanos circuit only work with obd1??

The MS43 would go absolutely ape-shit if you took control of the VANOS without its approval.

HOWEVER, I suppose it would be possible to intercept the cam sensor signals and electronically retard/advance them to get the same result.

MS43 would be happy because it wouldn't know any better, but the cams could be adjusted independently.

A VANOS piggyback controller. Hmmm....

Originally Posted by xixixi

So does this vanos circuit only work with obd1??

It's simply a PWM control device; it could work as a boost controller, or even control the Idle Air Valve if wired to them. The trick here is that he's figured out the timing events of the engine which he has asked be kept private. (He's a pretty smart cookie, and it took him some time) Basically, this device could work on any BMW engine with variable valve control with a bit of adaptation regardless of it's OBD status.

Originally Posted by hoveringuy

The MS43 would go abdolutely ape-shit if you took control of the VANOS without its approval.

HOWEVER, I suppose it would be possible to intercept the cam sensor signals and electronically retard/advance them to get the same result.

MS43 would be happy because it wouldn't know any better, but the cams could be adjusted independently.

A VANOS piggyback controller. Hmmm....

Me and wiring are like oil and water.... so basically cut into it before the CPS??