E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-19-2011, 12:08 AM   #101
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,566
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
so you've highlighted a difference. The IQ tests administered to American and European people, in a certain language, reveal different races to have different average (mean/median/mode?) IQs. Does that mean that every Asian has a higher IQ?

is it a superiority?

I've never found unicorns in my sock drawer by using a metal detector. Does that mean there are none, or that my test is flawed, or that I'm looking for the wrong thing?

If there were no IQ test, would Asians still be superior?
__________________

Last edited by NOVAbimmer; 01-19-2011 at 12:35 AM.
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 12:44 AM   #102
cr7driver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 22
My Ride: 2004 325Ci coupe
I was born in India, but grew up here in the US. My folks demanded nothing but perfection.
However, there was one fundamental difference. My folks allowed me to choose what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be in life. But whatever choices I made, I had to be the best at it! Once again, no exceptions!
I am now employed in a field that I dreamed about as a child. It was because of their backing, encouragement and lessons learned as a child that I am successful today. I will forever be grateful for all they did for me.
__________________
cr7driver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 07:09 AM   #103
Master Po
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 369
My Ride: E46 no more
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
so you've highlighted a difference. The IQ tests administered to American and European people, in a certain language, reveal different races to have different average (mean/median/mode?) IQs. Does that mean that every Asian has a higher IQ?

is it a superiority?

I've never found unicorns in my sock drawer by using a metal detector. Does that mean there are none, or that my test is flawed, or that I'm looking for the wrong thing?

If there were no IQ test, would Asians still be superior?
You asked for reading material on the subject that races are different. Now your turn to show scientific evidence that races are exactly the same.
You're stretching, distorting, spinning and putting words in my posts like there's no tomorrow. Again, reading comprehension is a requirement in a discussion board that uses written media.
Not only me, but nobody in this thread, has made any of the claims above. It's called a straw man argument.

And yes, there are no unicorns.

Last edited by Master Po; 01-19-2011 at 07:11 AM.
Master Po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 11:56 AM   #104
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
You asked for reading material on the subject that races are different. Now your turn to show scientific evidence that races are exactly the same.
You're stretching, distorting, spinning and putting words in my posts like there's no tomorrow. Again, reading comprehension is a requirement in a discussion board that uses written media.
Not only me, but nobody in this thread, has made any of the claims above. It's called a straw man argument.

And yes, there are no unicorns.
Po,
The problem is that you are trying to use IQ (and other standardized tests) as a measure of intelligence. What Nova is pointing out is several factors and they show that IQ tests Binet and Standford-Binet do not actually measure the complexity of intelligence.

First look at the origin of the "IQ test" Binet. At the turn of the 20th century Binet looked at a way to figure out if teaching mentally retarded children was worth it for the french govt. the Binet test was developed to do this.
So to say that chinese have a genetic advantage in IQ is great. Congrats, you have a genetic advantage over mentally retarded french kids.

Now, we also then have to look at what is known as the Flynn effect. The substantial increase in average scores on intelligence tests over time. Do you honestly think that due to genetic changes in the the combination of all races tested that intelligence has increased 20% in less than 80 years? Do you honestly think that genetic variation and/or mutation has occurred this quickly?
Not only that but:
"When large samples of Spanish children were assessed with a 30-year gap. Comparison of the IQ distributions indicated that
1. the mean IQ-scores on the test had increased by 9.7 points (the Flynn effect),
2. the gains were concentrated in the lower half of the distribution and negligible in the top half, and
3. the gains gradually decreased as the IQ of the individuals increased."

This also means that it is the bottom that is coming up not that intelligence itself as a whole is going up.

Now, look at Charles Spearman and g for "general intelligence factor." Now Spearman's "g" is most often seen in tests involving abstract reasoning, however it can also be seen as a statistical artifact.

The reality is there is no proof.

Let me pose a question to you. If there were some genetic superiority in IQ tests for asians and chinese in particular. Why hasn't the chinese govt been out testing every person they can find to prove this? If this really were true, don't you think the chinese govt would be doing everything it could to show the world they are smarter than everybody else?
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 12:19 PM   #105
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,566
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
I've never said that all the races are identical. It's pretty obvious from a quick glance that they're not. Facial structures, average height, hair type, etc, can all be linked and differentiated between racial groups.

The implication you're making, however, is that one race is inherently and genetically superior to others. Which, as you pointed out, is a scientifically sound as blood letting and humor balancing.
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 12:19 PM   #106
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,566
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
I've never said that all the races are identical. It's pretty obvious from a quick glance that they're not. Facial structures, average height, hair type, etc, can all be linked and differentiated between racial groups.

The implication you're making, however, is that one race is inherently and genetically superior to others. Which, as you pointed out, is a scientifically sound as blood letting and humor balancing.
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 01:21 PM   #107
Raymond42262
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The South
Posts: 453
My Ride: Is German
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
I've never said that all the races are identical. It's pretty obvious from a quick glance that they're not. Facial structures, average height, hair type, etc, can all be linked and differentiated between racial groups.

The implication you're making, however, is that one race is inherently and genetically superior to others. Which, as you pointed out, is a scientifically sound as blood letting and humor balancing.
One factor that has not been mentioned and is rarely brought up is the population group of those being tested.

In Germany, high school students go into one of two tracks. One is vocational and the other is academic, which orients the kids towards college.

You have to test well to be in the academic high schools, it is not necessarily a choice.

So. If the academically oriented high school students are the ones that are tested and not the ones in vocational school, there could be a test bias that does not exist in schools where all students are grouped together.

I think that IQ results are interesting, but I don't think that you can necessarily compare the test results 1 to 1 because the school environments are so much different.

Furthermore, test results and IQ mean nothing if you don't apply what you have learned. Some people are late bloomers anyhow. And high test results do not replace personal motivation, a drive for excellence and a willingness to take risks.
__________________
"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for."....Joseph Addison
--------------------
Raymond42262 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 01:45 PM   #108
carsos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas
Posts: 410
My Ride: '03 325Ci
damn, i just read this article. uh, this woman's kids are still in high school. that's a little hasty to be declaring your own parenting to be a success, isn't it? let's revisit this family once all the kids are in their 20's and see how many of them are still talking to their mother.
__________________
carsos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 01:46 PM   #109
Master Po
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 369
My Ride: E46 no more
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
I've never said that all the races are identical. It's pretty obvious from a quick glance that they're not. Facial structures, average height, hair type, etc, can all be linked and differentiated between racial groups.

The implication you're making, however, is that one race is inherently and genetically superior to others. Which, as you pointed out, is a scientifically sound as blood letting and humor balancing.
You certainly did. You even called me racist for mentioning differences in races.
All I said was that races are different.
Acknowledging first, and then identifying those differences, one can better exploit one's strengths.
If that's racism, so be it. There's nothing inherently bad about the word racism. The word has been demonized by the paranoid political-correctness police based on past actions.
Instituting social policies that exclude an entire group of people based on their race = BAD.
Recognizing strengths due to race and making social policies that encourage groups of people to further develop their own strengths and use them = GOOD.
The alternative is a society where everyone is treated equal, but at the lowest common denominator level.

Show me where I made statements that one race is superior to other.
Master Po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 01:52 PM   #110
BimmerFerret
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cardinal Country, KY
Posts: 1,882
My Ride: 08 G37S, 07 Sky RL
Send a message via Skype™ to BimmerFerret
Quote:
Originally Posted by carsos View Post
damn, i just read this article. uh, this woman's kids are still in high school. that's a little hasty to be declaring your own parenting to be a success, isn't it? let's revisit this family once all the kids are in their 20's and see how many of them are still talking to their mother.
Exactly, wait until they hit college and learn what a "one night stand" is lol.
__________________
2008 Infiniti G37S - Big Brakes, Limited Slip, etc.
2007 Sky Redline
1998 Honda Civic EX Sedan


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxlo View Post
Class of '03, yet you're still an idiot. Whats your point? Do you really think that you're somehow a god because you joined a site before someone else? ****ing nerd.
BimmerFerret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 02:18 PM   #111
Master Po
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 369
My Ride: E46 no more
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
Po,
The problem is that you are trying to use IQ (and other standardized tests) as a measure of intelligence.
I did no such thing. I cited an article called Race and Intelligence, and they use IQ to measure intelligence.
I could have just as easily cited many other articles, such as Race and Wealth, Race and Strength, etc. The point was to show Nova that there is scientifically measurable differences between races, and those are inheritable (meaning genetic, not just environmental). You, yourself cited some piece about race and genitalia, did you not?
The reason I chose the Race and Intelligence article is because there is a definite correlation between IQ and academic achievement. That's in the article. Read it.
One thing I did say, and may have spurred this whole (misinformed) debate is that I do agree Asians perform better in academics. That article goes directly to that.
Nowhere did I say that Asians are superior as a race.

You're falling in the straw man trap that Nova laid out.

Last edited by Master Po; 01-19-2011 at 02:22 PM.
Master Po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 03:30 PM   #112
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
I did no such thing. I cited an article called Race and Intelligence, and they use IQ to measure intelligence.
I could have just as easily cited many other articles, such as Race and Wealth, Race and Strength, etc. The point was to show Nova that there is scientifically measurable differences between races, and those are inheritable (meaning genetic, not just environmental). You, yourself cited some piece about race and genitalia, did you not?
The reason I chose the Race and Intelligence article is because there is a definite correlation between IQ and academic achievement. That's in the article. Read it.
One thing I did say, and may have spurred this whole (misinformed) debate is that I do agree Asians perform better in academics. That article goes directly to that.

Nowhere did I say that Asians are superior as a race.

You're falling in the straw man trap that Nova laid out.
Hardly. You are failing to grasp simple concepts (and sarcasm).

The article you cited failed to acknowledge the Flynn effect & that standardized tests (IQ or school testing) more likely as not, tell us nothing about how smart/intelligent/bright a person is. So to say "Asians perform better in academics" is a airman argument. It has no relevance to anything, as is demonstrated by the Flynn effect.

And you did say in the context of chinese persons having higher college acceptance rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
It's definitely in the genes and in parenting.
So, yes, you did say Asians are a superior race, even if only in that context.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 05:36 PM   #113
Master Po
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 369
My Ride: E46 no more
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
Hardly. You are failing to grasp simple concepts (and sarcasm).

The article you cited failed to acknowledge the Flynn effect & that standardized tests (IQ or school testing) more likely as not, tell us nothing about how smart/intelligent/bright a person is. So to say "Asians perform better in academics" is a airman argument. It has no relevance to anything, as is demonstrated by the Flynn effect.

And you did say in the context of chinese persons having higher college acceptance rates.

So, yes, you did say Asians are a superior race, even if only in that context.
Go argue with the Wikipedia authors. They have a strong discussion group going on.

Despite your reservations to IQ as a valid metric or not the fact remains that Asians do perform better in academics. And yes, that's partly in the genes and partly due to parenting (focus on academics).
That's very easily verified by looking at admission rates in the TOP TIER colleges (not UC Irvine).

That has nothing to do with one race being superior to another.
I also said that blacks perform better in sports. Also very easily verifyable.
So, which race is superior, Asians or Blacks? You're just trolling.
Master Po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 05:55 PM   #114
speedcrazy1532
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 721
My Ride: is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayabusa55 View Post
Some of our parents and grandparents had to grow up in the toughest of conditions and had to deal with life's challenges in much different ways than we do now. That doesn't mean that I need to send my kids to war at 13 to get them to become good people like my grandfather.

This lady is nuts. I sincerely doubt her happiness and satisfaction in life with anything, including herself and her children. For one to be so strict and demanding and focused on a particular goal is not a temporary condition, alleviated once the goal is attained.

There are Western parents like this. They're the obsessive types who push their children into sports and instruments they themselves wanted to excel at. The ones who live through their children.

And the children? Sure, they know how to play violin really well. Sure, they're good at school. What about their social skills? Happiness? Their future relationships and parental skills?

What many people fail to realize is that life's success is not measured by money or medals or even skill. There are plenty of activities that contribute to none of the above and yet they're very important to the happiness and health of a person.
Yup. So true. I wonder what the suicide rates are across races?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
so you've highlighted a difference. The IQ tests administered to American and European people, in a certain language, reveal different races to have different average (mean/median/mode?) IQs. Does that mean that every Asian has a higher IQ?

is it a superiority?

I've never found unicorns in my sock drawer by using a metal detector. Does that mean there are none, or that my test is flawed, or that I'm looking for the wrong thing?

If there were no IQ test, would Asians still be superior?
I know where I'm superior to Asians. And numbers on a page will never convince me someone is smarter than me. IQ tests and conventional forms of intelligence testing is just that; conventional. It appears the people that excel end up being quite unconventional.
__________________

-Phil
speedcrazy1532 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 06:51 PM   #115
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Go argue with the Wikipedia authors. They have a strong discussion group going on.

Despite your reservations to IQ as a valid metric or not the fact remains that Asians do perform better in academics. And yes, that's partly in the genes and partly due to parenting (focus on academics).
Show me the genome!
The fact that you can't makes it quite clear you never attended a TOP TIER university.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 11:06 PM   #116
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,566
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post

My arguments were not in favor of Chinese Parenting techniques. My arguments had to do with one race being superior than another IN A PARTICULAR AREA of endeavor.
you're claiming that one race is superior to another.
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 11:09 PM   #117
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,566
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
creating "social policies" that "help one group exploit their strengths" is an extremely slippery slope to social eugenic practices.

And again, it's common knowledge that there are differences between races. There's nothing wrong with saying that. It's scientifically demonstrable. We identify race from bone structure.

Again, though, your argument is that one race is inherently superior to another. And that we need to create "social programs" to allow them to better exploit that. In those two arguments, you are dangerously wrong. If one race of the human species is inherently and genetically superior to others, wouldn't it be in the best interests of the human species that we exploit that as a whole and breed for those most desirable qualites? And breed out the less desirable ones? If there is a genetically inherent "flaw" in a person, wouldn't it be in our best interests as a species to not allow them to reproduce? Or at least isolate their reproduction to others that are "flawed"? We wouldn't want to hurt the positive genes flowing through non-flawed members of the species, right? If the argument is that each race is superior to others IN CERTAIN AREAS, then shouldn't we be trying to cross-breed races for the maximum positive? We could have the inherent strength of a black, the inherent intelligence of an asian, the inherent leadership skill of a nordic. We'll have to breed some central american industrialism in there, though, to counter-act the inherent lazyness of the black genes. Then we can create some kind of "master race" that can lead us into a new Golden Age of Humanity.

Sounds great, right?
__________________

Last edited by NOVAbimmer; 01-19-2011 at 11:19 PM.
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2011, 08:48 AM   #118
Master Po
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 369
My Ride: E46 no more
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
you're claiming that one race is superior to another.
Fock. I've seen people yank a text out of context to spin it.
But this is the first time I see a spin with the entire context being in the quote.
Good news, we've diagnosed the source of your reading comprehension issue: you stop reading the minute you find what you want to read.
So the NBA and the NFL chose to select all black players strictly because they look prettier all matched up on a TV screen?

I guess a little perspective is in order.
Here here... I can blast Asians as well. This is one area whites (chicks) are superior, I must admit.

Last edited by Master Po; 01-20-2011 at 08:56 AM.
Master Po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2011, 08:51 AM   #119
Master Po
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 369
My Ride: E46 no more
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
creating "social policies" that "help one group exploit their strengths" is an extremely slippery slope to social eugenic practices.

And again, it's common knowledge that there are differences between races. There's nothing wrong with saying that. It's scientifically demonstrable. We identify race from bone structure.

Again, though, your argument is that one race is inherently superior to another. And that we need to create "social programs" to allow them to better exploit that. In those two arguments, you are dangerously wrong. If one race of the human species is inherently and genetically superior to others, wouldn't it be in the best interests of the human species that we exploit that as a whole and breed for those most desirable qualites? And breed out the less desirable ones? If there is a genetically inherent "flaw" in a person, wouldn't it be in our best interests as a species to not allow them to reproduce? Or at least isolate their reproduction to others that are "flawed"? We wouldn't want to hurt the positive genes flowing through non-flawed members of the species, right? If the argument is that each race is superior to others IN CERTAIN AREAS, then shouldn't we be trying to cross-breed races for the maximum positive? We could have the inherent strength of a black, the inherent intelligence of an asian, the inherent leadership skill of a nordic. We'll have to breed some central american industrialism in there, though, to counter-act the inherent lazyness of the black genes. Then we can create some kind of "master race" that can lead us into a new Golden Age of Humanity.

Sounds great, right?
I didn't say we NEED to create anything.
But if we were, you wouldn't call it racism.
Or if you were to call it racism, it'd be the "good" type.
Affirmative Action anyone? Isn't that racism?

Point being (since you can't get it): racism isn't a bad word. It depends on what you're doing.
Master Po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2011, 11:12 AM   #120
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
(Any quoted text material has been removed to reduce the potential to hurt Po's feelings on being called out for statements he actually has made.)
Show me the genome!
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use