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DIY: Do It Yourself
Post here to share or improve your wrench turning skills! All BMW E46 DIY tips, tales, and projects discussed inside. Learn to work on your car and know the right BMW parts you will need!

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Old 09-06-2011, 12:40 PM   #321
Rubenk
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Originally Posted by mach.schnell View Post
You mean does BavAuto have the experience to be right? Once the VANOS is done and I put the VCG back on, I'll let you know.
I was actually wanting to know what we should be using b/c I will be doing my VCG soon. I looked through this thread, but just see alot of discussion about it and never any definitive "use this stuff or your car will blow up".
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:46 PM   #322
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My friend's a BMW Master Tech at a local dealer. They use RTV on the the 90 degree half-moon (front and rear) and where the VANOS meets the head.

I followed this guidance and have since put 7K on my VCG with no leaks.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #323
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I used to be a tech. I have never had ANY trouble sealing a valve cover until now. I have been using silicone; and I have also used trim adhesive (not on this car). I'm going to redo mine with the Permatex rubber gasket product.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:33 PM   #324
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My friend's a BMW Master Tech at a local dealer. They use RTV ....
Yeah. I mean no doubt, but when I hear this I think... blue RTV? the black RTV? Red RTV? sensor safe RTV? Rubber safe RTV? BMW RTV? Some orange stuff I've never heard of before? RTV for steel? RTV for aluminum? RTV for magnesium? Where is the MSDS sheet? What are the temperature specs?

Engineering's in the details, which is why I posted a link to the actual product from the mfg.'s site.

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Old 09-06-2011, 01:47 PM   #325
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I was actually wanting to know what we should be using b/c I will be doing my VCG soon. I looked through this thread, but just see alot of discussion about it and never any definitive "use this stuff or your car will blow up".
Well, its not the CCV which will cause your car to blow up.

I don't think there ever is any definitive answer, because materials testing (and a damn lot of it) is going on right now. Especially since my wife's at work.

The entire goal is to make things the most durable for the right cost. At some point, a lab tech will come up with an entirely different formula for the rubber gasket goop so it will never get brittle, after which it will never be used because cars will be outlawed for electric hovercraft.

Look at ethanol additive to gas. They've now found a bacteria that lives with ethanol and eats steel. The entire national pipe grid that transports gas to local tanker filling stations is starting to show microfractures, and will likely fail within two years. This is what you get when Congress thinks they're engineering gods.

So..... just change the VCG every two years as routine maintenance and never have an oil leak? Put RTV on the half moons to keep it tight for four years? Or use the Grey dressing and have the gasket last for ten years?



As for me dear horatio, I'll let you know how the grey goop holds up.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:55 PM   #326
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As for me dear horatio, I'll let you know how the grey goop holds up.
I understand your point, but it appears your engineering perspective has made you inadvertently talk around my question.

What is the grey goop you are referring to?

I know there are 1,000 different options, but right now what is accepted as the *best* option for helping seal our VCG's?

*Sidenote- You should post up that steel eating bacteria tidbit in the science thread in the OT forum! I'd love to read more about that.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:22 PM   #327
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Simmer down, y'all. You guys are seriously splitting hairs.

-BMW has their procedure of putting Drei Bond 1209 in a thin layer around the sharp edges around the end of the cams as shown here: http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/06/04/49

-If you are doing anything different, than it is entirely up to you what you choose, and also your own risk. If you want to use anything other than BMW's recommendation, you should do your own research to find what you deem "best."

-I'm personally not just a big fan of putting anything on gaskets, as I do not like the associated mess, nor have I had any problems with leaks. If you want a safe general purpose sealant, I highly recommend Loctite 598 Black RTV which will work for just about any automotive gasketing situation: https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/1C4CD3E8A695CF24882571870000D84D/$File/598HB-EN.pdf
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:47 PM   #328
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*Sidenote- You should post up that steel eating bacteria tidbit in the science thread in the OT forum! I'd love to read more about that.
http://www.nist.gov/mml/materials_re..._pipelines.cfm

Quote:
NIST Finds That Ethanol-Loving Bacteria Accelerate Cracking of Pipeline Steels

From NIST Tech Beat: August 2, 2011
******** src="http://s7.addthis.com/js/250/addthis_widget.js#pub=usnistgov" type=text/javascript>*********> Contact: Laura Ost
303-497-4880

U.S. production of ethanol for fuel has been rising quickly, topping 13 billion gallons in 2010. With the usual rail, truck and barge transport methods under potential strain, existing gas pipelines might be an efficient alternative for moving this renewable fuel around the country. But researchers at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) caution that ethanol, and especially the bacteria sometimes found in it, can dramatically degrade pipelines.
At a conference this week,* NIST researchers presented new experimental evidence that bacteria that feed on ethanol and produce acid boosted fatigue crack growth rates by at least 25 times the levels occuring in air alone.
*******>*******>********>********>
Micrograph of crack in X52 steel after the sample was subjected to mechanical forces for several days in an ethanol solution containing acid-producing bacteria, Acetobacter aceti. Researchers at NIST's biofuels testing facility found that the bacteria increased fatigue crack growth rates at least 25-fold compared to what would occur in air.

Credit: Sowards/NIST
View hi-resolution image


The NIST team used a new biofuels test facility to evaluate fatigue-related cracking in two common pipeline steels immersed in ethanol mixtures, including simulated fuel-grade ethanol and an ethanol-water solution containing common bacteria, Acetobacter aceti. Ethanol and bacteria are known to cause corrosion, but this is the first study of their effects on fatigue cracking of pipeline steels.
"We have shown that ethanol fuel can increase the rate of fatigue crack growth in pipelines," NIST postdoctoral researcher Jeffrey Sowards says. "Substantial increases in crack growth rates were caused by the microbes. These are important data for pipeline engineers who want to safely and reliably transport ethanol fuel in repurposed oil and gas pipelines."
Ethanol, an alcohol that can be made from corn, is widely used as a gasoline additive due to its oxygen content and octane rating. Ethanol also can be used as fuel by itself in modified engines. The NIST tests focused on fuel-grade ethanol.
The tests were performed on X52 and X70 pipeline steels, which are alloys of more than a dozen metals. Simulated fuel-grade ethanol significantly increased crack growth at stress intensity levels found in typical pipeline operating conditions, but not at low stress levels. The cracking is related to corrosion. The X70 steel, which is finer-grained than X52, had lower rates of crack growth at all stress levels. This was expected because larger grain size generally reduces resistance to fatigue. In the bacteria-laden solutions, acid promoted crack growth at stress intensity levels found in typical pipeline operating conditions.
Preliminary tests also suggested that glutaraldehyde, a biocide used in oil and gas operations, may help control bacterial growth during ethanol transport.
The findings are the first from NIST's biofuels test facility, where material samples are installed in hydraulic test frames and subjected to load cycles while immersed in fuel inside a transparent polymer tank. Fatigue crack growth and other properties are observed over a period of up to 10 days. NIST staff expect to continue and possibly expand the research to other potential biofuels such as butanol or biodiesel.
Collaborators at the Colorado School of Mines provided the bacteria, which were isolated from industrial ethanol storage tanks. The research was supported by the U.S. Department of Transportation.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:18 PM   #329
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I understand your point, but it appears your engineering perspective has made you inadvertently talk around my question.

What is the grey goop you are referring to?
Whoops...

My original post that gives the link to the BavAuto DIY that uses the Permatex grey goop is here:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=309

Grey goop mfg. link
http://www.permatex.com/products/aut...t_Dressing.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubenk View Post
...what is accepted as the *best* option for helping seal our VCG's?
I think the best option is the Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing. That's the one I will be using, once this damn rain lets up and I can finish the project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubenk View Post
*Sidenote- You should post up that steel eating bacteria tidbit in the science thread in the OT forum! I'd love to read more about that.
Uh... be my guest. Here's the link, and I've no more to add.

http://www.asminternational.org/port...00621e010aRCRD

Mach

Hmmm.. one more bit of trivia drooling from my mind - the largest life form on the planet (in terms of total biomass) is iron eating bacteria found under the crust.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:09 PM   #330
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-If you are doing anything different, than (sic) it is entirely up to you what you choose, and also your own risk. If you want to use anything other than BMW's recommendation,...
Oh Holy Crap. BMW engineering is German, not God Almighty (who at least didn't lose two wars you know). If they were so good to begin with why did BMW itself redesign the CCV system so cold weather wouldn't blow up their M54 engine?

My entire point is that the 10 year old BMW recommendation of Drei Bond 1209 is, well, 10 years old. A lot of research in sealants has occurred in that time which can be of great benefit to your car. And I vaguely recall this stuff no longer being available from BMW. Even your own post recommends a non-BMW product (Loctite) so what gives with the 'anything other than BMW at your own risk' hysteria? I think you're doing a grave disservice to the community running around like chicken little and flapping your arms like the Lost In Space Robot - "Warning Will Robinson, not approved by BMW."

Or is the BMW engineering god so good that Raj is Satan and we transgress in your eyes to use the besian seals in the VANOS unit? That stuff is most certainly Not recommended by BMW.

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-I'm personally not just a big fan of putting anything on gaskets
And would that be rubber gaskets? Metal gaskets? Paper gaskets?

Hey, my wife gets 120 grand a year to split hairs, so somebody must think it's worthwhile.

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I highly recommend Loctite 598 Black RTV which will work for just about any automotive gasketing situation:
But that's also the point - you're not making a gasket here, so the use of 598HB (in her words) "doesn't make sense." It's a Gasket Maker, not meant to be used for sealing other gaskets (even according to Loctite). All this will do is just make another rubber gasket under the rubber gasket you're already putting on. If you need to, I can drag a chemist into this to say whether it provides adequate adhesion to other rubber surfaces or not. Personally, who would want to wait 72 hours for this to cure for a VCG job?

And Henkel's a good company, so do you think they're splitting hairs by having more than one RTV product to be used on everything? 5020; 5040; 5045; 5060; 5140; 5145; 5210; 5211; 5362; 5366; 5367; oh go read the list yourself http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/search.a...499&Q_PROP22=0

Schnell

PS: Your link doesn't work by the way. It has a typo, so here's a working one: http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/598HB-EN.PDF

PPS: Interesting to note 598 doesn't show on the Loctite Consumer Product line website, only the Blue and Red.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:12 PM   #331
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Impressive
.......... (in my best Darth Vader Voice)
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:24 AM   #332
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Schnell,

Are you a little worked up for some reason? Or are you just trying to start a fight over RTV?

-BMW has credibility, that is why I recommend following their advice above all else on their products. I haven't shown anything to prove my credibility either, and that's why I still recommend BMW's procedure over mine, in addition to not wanting any liability. You haven't shown anything to prove your credibility either.

-The CCV has nothing to do with the valve cover gasket, so that information is null.

-If you want to me elaborate on my preference to not adding anything to gaskets, I don't like to put anything on paper, rubber, or metal gaskets most of the time, and this is usually the manufacturer's suggested procedure. On some cases, like on my BMW M54 I chose not to use any additional product on the valve cover gasket. In the case of my Mercedes-Benz M102 I chose to use an RTV sealant on the normally bare seal between the iron block and the aluminum timing cover. I'm not really sure why your wife's salary needed to be involved in this conversation?

-I gave a recommendation for a good general purpose gasket maker, that is all, and you can reread what I wrote if you don't believe me. I never said to put it on a gasket, but you argue not to put it on a gasket, for the same reasons I personally don't like to put it on a gasket but did not state. Similarly, I never said anything even implying it should be used for all situations and that every other Loctite formulation is unnecessary.

-Lastly, my link doesn't have a typo, it simply wasn't automatically hyperlinked by the forum.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:16 AM   #333
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My car came with some form of RTV from the factory. This is certain. Im the only owner and when I changed my VCG for the first time there was clearly evidence of some form of clear-like RTV. Whether it is the elusive Drei-bond or something else, BMW absolutely applies RTV at the factory.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:22 AM   #334
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My car came with some form of RTV from the factory. This is certain. Im the only owner and when I changed my VCG for the first time there was clearly evidence of some form of clear-like RTV. Whether it is the elusive Drei-bond or something else, BMW absolutely applies RTV at the factory.
...and we all know how well that worked out.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:25 AM   #335
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...and we all know how well that worked out.
What do you mean by this comment?
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:28 AM   #336
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Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for.

To the other naysayers, i'd have to say I agree with Mach's view on NOT creating a gasket, or using a gasket maker. All of my experience with gaskets has been of the paper/cardboard(not sure of the exact material) and I believe those could use a thin layer of RTV. I also had another application that used MLS(multi-layered steel) gaskets, and the preferred and proven brand of them actually comes with a layer of rubber rtv already applied around them. But in the BMW's case it is using a rubber gasket, therefore applying more rubber does not make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by mach.schnell View Post
Whoops...

My original post that gives the link to the BavAuto DIY that uses the Permatex grey goop is here:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=309

Grey goop mfg. link
http://www.permatex.com/products/aut...t_Dressing.htm


I think the best option is the Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing. That's the one I will be using, once this damn rain lets up and I can finish the project.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:30 AM   #337
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...and we all know how well that worked out.
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Originally Posted by OrientBlau View Post
What do you mean by this comment?
It appears he is implying that BMW's from the factory have a faulty application and therefore their VCG's fail prematurely.

But realistically the majority of VCG's have lived a reasonable life expectency of 8-10 years with the factory's application.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:50 AM   #338
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It appears he is implying that BMW's from the factory have a faulty application and therefore their VCG's fail prematurely.

But realistically the majority of VCG's have lived a reasonable life expectency of 8-10 years with the factory's application.
So, he thinks he knows more than the BMW engineers? My VCG lasted 54K before I replaced mine and it was still in great shape. Just some minor signs of leakage due to age. It was 8 yrs before it developed a stain around the VCG. In fact, it could probably have lasted another 20K easily. A gasket costs like $30. How long does he think a VCG should last?

He may also not realize that leaks from age are not related to the RTV usage, but rather time and heat which begins to shrink the gasket making it brittle and creating small gaps. RTV or not, youre still going to get leakage after some time and heat.

Keep in mind the reason for RTV usage is to cover areas where the gasket does not sit flush along the perimeter of the head. THIS is why RTV is used. When the gasket is unable to conform tightly to the surface RTV is used to close any tiny gaps. These microscopic gaps are found along uneven surfaces where the head meets the VANOS and where the flat VANOS surface curves down into a half moon at apporximately a 90 degree angle. The gasket itself does a good job of sealing along the perimeter except for the uneven surfaces. THAT is where RTV comes into play. Its not meant to be applied along the entire surface. Good god no!
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:04 AM   #339
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How long does he think a VCG should last?
It should last until the cover needs to come off to service the valves (duh). Thanks BMW for the wonderful valve train which does not require regular service. Now finish the job and seal the damned cover.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:20 AM   #340
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It should last until the cover needs to come off to service the valves (duh). Thanks BMW for the wonderful valve train which does not require regular service. Now finish the job and seal the damned cover.

If its coming off for maintenance (valves, VANOS, etc.), regardless of mileage, I'm replacing it with a new one. I would never resuse a VCG.

We all have our own standards of what is acceptable and good practice.

VCG leaks are not the sole domain of RTV.

Re-using a VCG will drastically reduce its life compared to never removing it at all.

One must also ensure BOTH mating surfaces are clean and free of any debris.

Replacing the rubber grommets and bolts.

Not only torquing to the correct value, but torquing it in the proper pattern (inward to outward in a star pattern).

Even a failing CCV can blow out your new VCG.

So lets all not hang leaks on whether one applies RTV or not. There are many other factors contributing to leaks.
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