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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 09-11-2011, 06:48 PM   #21
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Oh no, I meant that the state must, by law, ALLOW a pharmacist to carry if they choose, since they have stuff behind that counter that these crackheads kill for and it's worth stealing.
Laws don't allow you to do anything, they tell you what you can't do.

I think what you mean to say is that private businesses should be able to choose if they choose to allow their employees to carry. And that statement is true is 99.9% of the cases.

Crackheads kill for sneakers and laptops too, not just drugs. Should the state government force Foot Locker and Best Buy employees to carry guns too?

No
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 09-11-2011, 06:55 PM   #22
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Laws don't allow you to do anything, they tell you what you can't do.


All too often people forget this simple truth.

Here in VA there isn't anything that says you are allowed to openly carry a handgun so people always ask the question "Isn't that illegal? There's no law that says you can do that". People who open carry usually reply with, "There's no law that says I can't!"
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:51 PM   #23
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My last job had it in the employee handbook that weapons of any sort are not allowed anywhere on company property. This incuded guns, knives & ammo - on your person or vehicle.

Luckily there was a public parking lot right next door - roughly 5yards walking distance from our parking lot. I chose to park there in several instances to protect my job in situations I needed to keep items within my vehicle.

I hunt. Where do they expect me to put my hunting clothes, guns & other items should I choose to hunt before work?!
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Old 09-12-2011, 11:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JonJon View Post
Laws don't allow you to do anything, they tell you what you can't do.

I think what you mean to say is that private businesses should be able to choose if they choose to allow their employees to carry. And that statement is true is 99.9% of the cases.

Crackheads kill for sneakers and laptops too, not just drugs. Should the state government force Foot Locker and Best Buy employees to carry guns too?

No
Not quite. My statement is...if in a state where CCW is legal, the employER must allow the employee to carry if the EMPLOYEE wants to.

The argument against the above statement is the same as the argument against guns in the first place IMHO.

To the second part of your question....absolutely. Give me ONE good reason why not. Just last week, a Best Buy in College Point Queens had a "heist" where an entire CAGE of apple products was stolen. What if there were employees restocking the shelves there at night? Does best buy provide them security? No. They provide security against THEIR property.

Sorry JJ, you and I disagree on this one. Your arguments don't match up. A person is a human first, and an employee second. If you believe that a person has a right to "bear arms" and protect themselves, then that does not (should not) stop at the employer's doorstep. Again, the argument AGAINST that statement is the SAME as the argument anti gun nuts always have.
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Old 09-12-2011, 11:46 PM   #25
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Not quite. My statement is...if in a state where CCW is legal, the employER must allow the employee to carry if the EMPLOYEE wants to.

The argument against the above statement is the same as the argument against guns in the first place IMHO.

To the second part of your question....absolutely. Give me ONE good reason why not. Just last week, a Best Buy in College Point Queens had a "heist" where an entire CAGE of apple products was stolen. What if there were employees restocking the shelves there at night? Does best buy provide them security? No. They provide security against THEIR property.
48 of 50 states issue CCW permits.
We both have a solid love for the 2nd Amendment, but only one of us has a proper education on how the Constitution(s) both grant power and limit power of the government(s).

The government should NOT interfere in private matters such as private business policy or matter of the state that they have not been given privilege.
Private property owners also have rights that are not made NULL and VOID by other peoples' rights

Employees at Best Buy don't HAVE TO work there. They are aware of all the policies and risks before accepting employment just like any well educated firearm carrier should learn a store's firearm policy before entering it and choosing to shop there.

What if an employee wants to smoke on the job or drink? They are both legal in all states. Should businesses be forced to let their employees smoke and drink on the clock?

I feel a person should be allowed to carry a firearm in ANY public place including schools (if they are publicly funded). I don't feel anyone should tell a private business owner or private property owner what to allow/disallow (Save protected classes).

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Your arguments don't match up. A person is a human first, and an employee second.
Tell that to the IRS

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Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
If you believe that a person has a right to "bear arms" and protect themselves, then that does not (should not) stop at the employer's doorstep. .
I DO 1000% believe that, but not on private property. Again, you need to do some more learning on the Amendments, government powers, state and federal constitutions, public vs, private, etc.

The Bill of Rights (focused on the 2A) doesn't ALLOW you to bear arms, it PROTECTS you from GOVERNMENT oppression in having that innate right. The 2A doesn't protect you or secure your right to bear arms on PRIVATE property. Same thing with the 1A. You have zero protection to "speak your mind" on private property, but you are protected in that speech from government oppression.
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 09-13-2011, 12:02 AM   #26
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Employees at Best Buy don't HAVE TO work there. They are aware of all the policies and risks before accepting employment just like any well educated firearm carrier should learn a store's firearm policy before entering it and choosing to shop there.
Exactly.
When we agree to work for a place, we do so in this country of our own volition. It's our decision to work for a company that prohibits or allows guns. We all have a choice.


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The government should NOT interfere in private matters such as private business policy or matter of the state that they have not been given privilege.
Private property owners also have rights that are not made NULL and VOID by other peoples' rights
Such has been the problem of the current administration and their lack of understanding therein. We have seen this happen within business a lot lately. Capitalism is at risk, and free property rights are a large part of capitalism.

Lest we forget:

Government Meddling in Lending > Mandates Issuance of Low-Income Loans > Fanny & Freddy Take Over Loans > Housing Bubble > Loans Go Unpaid > Bubble Bursts > Mass Foreclosures > Bailouts > US Dollar Loses Value > US Has Mass Debt and Fears of Default > China Buys Up US Debt > Recession > High Unemployment > More Loans Go Unpaid > US Dollar Tanks > US Credit Rating Drops > Deeper Recession > Obama Blames Bush > Everyone on the Government Dole > Socialism > Obama Happy
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:43 AM   #27
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I guess I don't see all private property as created equal. Your house, 110% private property. A PRIVATE business open to the PUBLIC, not the same thing. Yes, I agree with you that a private business can set up it's own rules even if they violate other laws (like freedom of speech.) However, even that isn't cut and dry. Your freedom of speech stops in regards to business. However, if you were fired because you were talking about how much you like Ron Paul, that may be wrongful termination. Believe me, I get your point, hell, technically, I agree with it, private property, private rules. However, my argument stands...you have guns because you do not rely on police to protect you and yours. Same goes for your workplace. Unless you work at the US mint, your employer does not provide you with security, so...well, you get my point. I guess the simple fact is this....ccw to work regardless of policy. If you never use it, no one will ever know. If you do use it, you walked away with your life, so losing your job is the least of your worries.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
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I guess I don't see all private property as created equal. Your house, 110% private property. A PRIVATE business open to the PUBLIC, not the same thing.
Your house isn't 110% private property or even 100%. You lease it from the government and never really "own" it. You'll be paying taxes on it even after the mortgage is paid off. Plus, your house and land can be taken from you some some cases (Building an interstate through your living room, etc.) and there is nothing you can do about it. Hostile takeover

There are some similarities too. A private business is open to the public, just like your house is as well, if allowed. In both cases, you (home owner) or a business (store) can allow or refuse entry based on just about anything, save some protections. If a store wants to refuse entry to anyone wearing a blue shirt, they can. If they want to only allow entry to people wearing a Halloween costume in July, they can. It wouldn't be good for business, but they can.

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Yes, I agree with you that a private business can set up it's own rules even if they violate other laws (like freedom of speech.)
Freedom of speech isn't a law.

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However, even that isn't cut and dry. Your freedom of speech stops in regards to business. However, if you were fired because you were talking about how much you like Ron Paul, that may be wrongful termination.
Not true. Your private employer can certainly fire you for your political views EVEN if those views do not disrupt or interfere with the quality of your work. Now.... if you hold a government job in the public sector, your "boss" would have a harder time firing you for your political views since it may be viewed as government restriction on your 1st A rights. I actually wrote a paper on this exact topic. The ACLU has refused to take on cases and suits on both the private and public sectors. Basically, you job is "at-will" and in most cases you can be terminated for little or no reason.

You still haven't researched the whole public vs. private thing in regards to government and the Constitution huh?

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Believe me, I get your point, hell, technically, I agree with it, private property, private rules. However, my argument stands...you have guns because you do not rely on police to protect you and yours. Same goes for your workplace. Unless you work at the US mint, your employer does not provide you with security, so...well, you get my point.
I'm not sure I do get your point... I carry and own firearms for many reasons, one of them is to protect my family, yes. The Supreme Court has ruled several times that police officers and law enforcement in general has NO OBLIGATION or DUTY to protect you, me or anyone. They don't have the ability to do it, they don't have the legal requirement to do it and they can't be held liable in their failure to do so.

That said.... your workplace is completely different. If POLICE have no legal duty to protect you, what makes you think your JOB does?



Quote:
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I guess the simple fact is this....ccw to work regardless of policy. If you never use it, no one will ever know. If you do use it, you walked away with your life, so losing your job is the least of your worries.
Agreed. Everyone should weigh their risks.

It's not illegal to carry a firearm to your job. You can't be arrested for it (unless you do something like commit a crime or fail to leave, trespassing).
But you DO run the risk of getting fired.

Some people can afford that risk, some can't afford to lose their job and not feed their family. You can die of starvation too
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 09-13-2011, 03:40 AM   #29
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Your house isn't 110% private property or even 100%. You lease it from the government and never really "own" it. You'll be paying taxes on it even after the mortgage is paid off. Plus, your house and land can be taken from you some some cases (Building an interstate through your living room, etc.) and there is nothing you can do about it. Hostile takeover

There are some similarities too. A private business is open to the public, just like your house is as well, if allowed. In both cases, you (home owner) or a business (store) can allow or refuse entry based on just about anything, save some protections. If a store wants to refuse entry to anyone wearing a blue shirt, they can. If they want to only allow entry to people wearing a Halloween costume in July, they can. It wouldn't be good for business, but they can.

Freedom of speech isn't a law.


Not true. Your private employer can certainly fire you for your political views EVEN if those views do not disrupt or interfere with the quality of your work. Now.... if you hold a government job in the public sector, your "boss" would have a harder time firing you for your political views since it may be viewed as government restriction on your 1st A rights. I actually wrote a paper on this exact topic. The ACLU has refused to take on cases and suits on both the private and public sectors. Basically, you job is "at-will" and in most cases you can be terminated for little or no reason.

You still haven't researched the whole public vs. private thing in regards to government and the Constitution huh?



I'm not sure I do get your point... I carry and own firearms for many reasons, one of them is to protect my family, yes. The Supreme Court has ruled several times that police officers and law enforcement in general has NO OBLIGATION or DUTY to protect you, me or anyone. They don't have the ability to do it, they don't have the legal requirement to do it and they can't be held liable in their failure to do so.

That said.... your workplace is completely different. If POLICE have no legal duty to protect you, what makes you think your JOB does?

My point exactly. Neither the police nor the employer protect you. Thus, only one person can protect you....yourself.


Agreed. Everyone should weigh their risks.

It's not illegal to carry a firearm to your job. You can't be arrested for it (unless you do something like commit a crime or fail to leave, trespassing).
But you DO run the risk of getting fired.

Some people can afford that risk, some can't afford to lose their job and not feed their family. You can die of starvation too

By that token, your family I'm sure would be MUCH worse off if you werent around at all to support them.

Responses in bold. I guess technically, and legally you are right, which for the purposes of this discussion, makes you right. I however, still think it's "wrong" for employers to not allow employees to carry. I can't fathom one reason why they cannot. I can stab someone at my job with a knife, and the home depot guy can stick a nailgun to someone's head if one is crazy enough. Carrying at work does not make anyone LESS safe.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:39 PM   #30
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Oh no, I meant that the state must, by law, ALLOW a pharmacist to carry if they choose, since they have stuff behind that counter that these crackheads kill for and it's worth stealing.
word

http://gothamist.com/2011/06/19/four...pharmacy_s.php
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Old 09-18-2011, 02:13 PM   #31
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thanks 2 all

I would never have thought Id be reading such an informative thread on a car site.Always a pleasure & thanks to all who take time to post here.Off to DTI Ohio next week end.If anyone is interested in my experience,please PM me & Ill share my thoughts. Doug out
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:45 AM   #32
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Something I find interesting in regards to the Walgreens pharmacist that was fired....

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/lab...eneral-du.html

Apparently, he violated "company policy," but the "company policy" is actually an OSHA regulation. So, even if Walgreens was PRO gun, they are not allowed by OSHA to allow employees to carry, thus, this becomes a case against government vs 2nd amendment, and not about private property.
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