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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 08-17-2011, 09:39 AM   #1
Serbonze
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Thoughts on The Appleseed Project?

I have a chance to attend one of their two day events. I've researched it a bit and spoke with the Florida Coordinator last night. It appears that they provide fundamental marksmanship training (who can't benefit from working on the fundamentals?) at a very low cost while teaching some history. It will also provide the opportunity for shooting from different positions than my local ranges will allow.

Has anyone participated in one? What did you think?
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:20 AM   #2
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Well, I went to an Appleseed event a few weekends ago.

My father decided to join me, so he flew into town the weekend of the 15th and 16th. It was hosted by Rocky Creek Ranch in Myakka, Floirda. We had a great time, and I definitely learned a lot. I brought two ARs with me:

Smith and Wesson M&P15T with a 3-9x scope
QD Lower/Spikes upper with an Eotech XPS-2
All ammo was XM193

My father brought a scoped Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 and he used Federal Target bulk packs.

We started out on Saturday with six shooters and nine instructors. They were having an instructor boot camp prior to the shoot, so each shooter received plenty of individual attention. I decided to use my scoped AR first since I have bad eyes to begin with, and the targets were ridiculously small.

The morning started with a free for all shoot. At 25 meters you have 13 rounds. Three rounds for a simulated 100y shot, three for a 200y, three for a 300y, three for a 400y, and then one for a 250y simulated shot. You can shoot from any position, and there is no time limit. I chose to shoot from prone since I had never done before and would be the most stable, and I used my magazine as a mono-pod. I surprised myself and I was the only shooter to put three rounds in the simulated 400y silhouette.

We then started the instruction. We learned about the USGI sling and its use, and progressed through various standing, seated, and prone positions. Both seated and prone gave me some trouble, as I never quite felt comfortable since I had never done them before. We ended the day with a number of their AQT tests, and unfortunately I didn't score rifleman. I was getting frustrated with the sling too, and I would rather have not used it at all. We went back to the lodge to clean up, had a great meal (wild hog that was trapped on the ranch) and sat around the camp fire trading stories. It was a great day, and a great evening.

Sunday morning came and damn was I sore. I decided to change rifles, and I used the QD/Spikes with the Eotech. The instructors advised me against changing rifles, but I had both there and I wanted to run them both through the paces. We went back out to the range and spent another full day practicing all of the positions, and we eventually made our way out to the known distance range. Rocky Creek Ranch has four huge (ten people per lane) 500y lanes, with known distances marked from 25y-500y. We set up at 100y, and zeroed in and started shooting at both targets and 1/2" steel plates. The plates surprised me the most; as I was shocked at what a standard XM193 round would do to a steel plate at 100y. My father was getting really tired by the end of the day and was having difficulty getting up and down from the various positions, so we decided to end the day before we could get to any additional AQTs. I wasn't feeling all that great either as I was starting to get a stomach ache, so it was a good time to stop.

What I gained:
The fundamentals of marksmanship that I've read about, but had never been taught or practiced.
Using your Natural Point of Aim instead of trying to muscle the shot. This was probably the biggest "aha" moment of the weekend.
The ability to shoot from both prone and seated positions.
The realization that I'm a much better shot than I thought, and I impressed myself and my father.
I can easily shoot at 100y with an unmagnified optic. I was shooting 4moa, which is good enough for me based on my current skill level and equipment.
I didn't need to score 210 and gain the rifleman patch at my first event.

What I didn't like:
The use of the USGI sling. It never felt comfortable.
I found out later that the sling is not required, that irritated me.
I would have liked more time to work on the rifles during the downtime. We were not allowed to touch them at all unless we were in a "shooters prep" time. That time was meant to get you into position, not work on a rifle.
We would make a change to the sights, and we would not have the opportunity to verify the adjustment. We would go right to the next skill set.

A little side note to the story, and to explain why I have been MIA lately. I mentioned that I wasn't feeling good at the end of the day on Sunday. That spilled over into Monday, when stomach felt even worse. That then spilled into Tuesday morning, when I was having pain in my lower back. I went to the doctor, who ordered a CT scan, and six hours later I was having surgery to remove my appendix. The next few days were spent in a fog in the hospital and on the couch.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:04 PM   #3
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First off, holy hell glad to hear you're ok. Appendix problems and surgery are no fun. Hope you recover completely soon.

I attended an Appleseed last year in St. Augustine. Basically did the exact same stuff as you and had similar thoughts and aches. I took my Colt w/ACOG. Our group was much much larger, like 40+. I am happy to say that I absorbed all of it quicky and adapted to it. By the second day, I was shooting 1moa. I was one of 3 to shoot Rifleman and they asked me to come back and instruct. I declined because of my busy schedule and also because I didn't feel qualified enough to actually teach others; I am a good shot, but I'm not sure how good of a teacher I would have been.

Awesome experience though; I would recommend it to anyone.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:19 PM   #4
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in for later. I did something similar in PA a few months ago.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by david05111 View Post
First off, holy hell glad to hear you're ok. Appendix problems and surgery are no fun. Hope you recover completely soon.

I attended an Appleseed last year in St. Augustine. Basically did the exact same stuff as you and had similar thoughts and aches. I took my Colt w/ACOG. Our group was much much larger, like 40+. I am happy to say that I absorbed all of it quicky and adapted to it. By the second day, I was shooting 1moa. I was one of 3 to shoot Rifleman and they asked me to come back and instruct. I declined because of my busy schedule and also because I didn't feel qualified enough to actually teach others; I am a good shot, but I'm not sure how good of a teacher I would have been.

Awesome experience though; I would recommend it to anyone.
Congratulations on making Rifleman on your first try, it's certainly not easy. Let me ask you this - do you see yourself using that sling in the future? It would have been nice to take one more test on Sunday afternoon and shoot the AQT any way that we like (as long as we were following the standing/seated/prone/prone format). Maybe we could have? Like I said we left before it ended.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
Congratulations on making Rifleman on your first try, it's certainly not easy. Let me ask you this - do you see yourself using that sling in the future? It would have been nice to take one more test on Sunday afternoon and shoot the AQT any way that we like (as long as we were following the standing/seated/prone/prone format). Maybe we could have? Like I said we left before it ended.
Thanks and good question. I had a really difficult time adapting to the sling. First off, it had to be "rigged" with a zip tie to my rifle, so I didn't work absolutely perfect, but it did work well enough. I saw it as a serious advantage standing up; it allowed me to stabilize the rifle to make far more precise shots. In the sitting position, I don't even know that I used it at all, but I was pretty good from the beginning in that position.

It really began to bug me in the prone position though. I could never quite get in a comfortable position with it. Now, that being said, it was uncomfortable, but helpful for me. It forced me to contort my body into an uncomfortable, but stable platform for shooting. And once I figured out how to quickly determine my natural POA and adjust, the combination became effective.

If I could attach the sling to the rifle in a less-ghetto way, then I would probably keep it on there and use it, yeah.

We should go shooting sometime
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Old 10-28-2011, 06:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by david05111 View Post
Thanks and good question. I had a really difficult time adapting to the sling. First off, it had to be "rigged" with a zip tie to my rifle, so I didn't work absolutely perfect, but it did work well enough. I saw it as a serious advantage standing up; it allowed me to stabilize the rifle to make far more precise shots. In the sitting position, I don't even know that I used it at all, but I was pretty good from the beginning in that position.

It really began to bug me in the prone position though. I could never quite get in a comfortable position with it. Now, that being said, it was uncomfortable, but helpful for me. It forced me to contort my body into an uncomfortable, but stable platform for shooting. And once I figured out how to quickly determine my natural POA and adjust, the combination became effective.

If I could attach the sling to the rifle in a less-ghetto way, then I would probably keep it on there and use it, yeah.

We should go shooting sometime
I had to zip tie it too! And I definately felt contorted both in seated and prone. I kept wanting to try the one knee position for seated, but the instructors didn't seem to like it too much.

We had one guy there from Miami who was a hard core prepper/SHTF scenario person. He was shooting an AK47. He talked the entire weekend about the grid going down, what he does to prep, the communists, doomsday, etc. It got really old, really quickly. He was camping at the ranch, and he had one of these things with him outside of the tent:



When asked, he said that it was his training partner. He practices drawing his pistol and training rifle positions on it. Why was it sitting in a lawn chair outside of his tent at an Appleseed weekend? We have no idea.
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Old 10-28-2011, 10:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
I had to zip tie it too! And I definately felt contorted both in seated and prone. I kept wanting to try the one knee position for seated, but the instructors didn't seem to like it too much.

We had one guy there from Miami who was a hard core prepper/SHTF scenario person. He was shooting an AK47. He talked the entire weekend about the grid going down, what he does to prep, the communists, doomsday, etc. It got really old, really quickly. He was camping at the ranch, and he had one of these things with him outside of the tent:



When asked, he said that it was his training partner. He practices drawing his pistol and training rifle positions on it. Why was it sitting in a lawn chair outside of his tent at an Appleseed weekend? We have no idea.
Lmao wow...

And I can't believe he actually brought the ak to do this.. I mean good lord, his arm must have been seriously bruised after 2 days and 500+ rounds through that thing. Not to mention expensive...

You guys should have made the dummy "disappear" overnight, though I could understand your hesitation; guy sounds a little screwy

The one knee position worked gold for me; the other I couldn't adapt to well enough. The seated position really bugs me though; it leaves you really exposed to enemy fire, with limited ability to move. At least in prone, your target silhouette they're aiming at is small and harder to hit on flat ground. I felt as though I would be a sitting duck (literally) in the seated position.
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