Gun Nut Tip of the Week: Concealed Carry

It depends on where you live, but local gun ranges will usually have info on it. Many ranges will host their own training. This training may be more novice in quality, so if you're more of an advanced shooter with more experience on the gun, you may have to look to better training.
There are also regional or state gun forums abound to find that stuff.
Also, you can check out the NRA's website and locate training near you.

I have no need to take most of the training offered locally because no one around teaches the real advanced skills that I need. The basic stuff is overly repetitive for me. So, I watch training companies and groups that hold courses nationwide. EAG Tactical, Vickers Tactical, Viking Tactics, Trident Concepts, Magpul Dynamics, RedBack One, etc. For those, it's a matter of looking online and watching. Often times, you may need to travel to get to those courses. Otherwise, going to an established academy is a great thing to do. Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, US Training Center, Rifles Only, and others are great established academies. It all depends on your focus for training, be it skill-based or tactic-based.

Great info....I carry 95% of the time

over 20 years of experience with a weapon
CCW permit in the great state of Colorado....ex-Cali guy
Glock 26.....12 rounds Golden Saber JHP
Holster....De Santis Pocket Nemesis

NRA member and 20 year military veteran...and not that old...only 40

Anyone can take a class at their local range, they are not that expensive, most ranges rent guns so if you are new to one....try them out. Start with small calibers first. A nice 22 is a good place to start.

When you think about the weapon you want to carry concealed...think about size, and how you will carry it every day. Do not buy too big of a gun you can't carry...you will end up getting rid if it later...trust me.

I will not go into brands of guns...they are like cars...different strokes for different folks..same as ammo. Main thing is...take a safety class if you are new to a weapon, and know how to field strip it and maintain it. Forget lasers and things like that...if you do not know the basics and shoot/clean/break down the weapon the the basic field strip....no fancy gadget will do you much.

A nice tac light by the bed is nice...but does not have to be an expensive one. I have a decent Cree...and it does just fine. Surefire is nice...but really not needed. And, I never carry a tac light in my pocket. Just my 2 cents on this. Take it for what it is worth.

And speaking of getting training, I need to comment on instructors. I recently had a discussion with a guy who was thinking of getting his Permit To Carry Instructor Certification so that he could do his own permit to carry classes. Everyone and their cousin in Minnesota is doing them now, and it's a joke. Aside from the state-mandated curriculum, there's lots of bad information being put out in regards to carry methodology, tactics, and gear. Anyways, the guy asks me what he could do to be a good instructor. I told him exactly what I thought. He wants to do other instruction later on as well, so I told him that people should want to learn from him because they want to know what he knows and gain from what he has to offer. With most carry permit instructors, people go to them because it's the cheapest rate in town and they solely want to get their certificate. People typically don't go to carry permit courses to learn anything substantive about actually carrying.
Case in point: my little brother just turned 21 and went and got his certification. The guy he went through had people with .22LR target pistols and scoped hunting revolvers in his class for the qualification segment.
Now, long ago, I decided that if I did decide to start teaching permit to carry courses, that I would do it in no less than 2 days of instruction and shooting, and that all students would be mandated to use a weapon they could feasibly carry.

My point is, if you are going to take instruction, do yourself a favor and invest effort into your learning experience. Pick a good instructor that has good reviews for good instruction and presentation, and not for class passing ratios. This will benefit you greatly. I look at it akin to buying a bird dog from an experienced award-winning breeder rather than from a puppy-mill.

Originally Posted by Reedo302

And speaking of getting training, I need to comment on instructors. I recently had a discussion with a guy who was thinking of getting his Permit To Carry Instructor Certification so that he could do his own permit to carry classes. Everyone and their cousin in Minnesota is doing them now, and it's a joke. Aside from the state-mandated curriculum, there's lots of bad information being put out in regards to carry methodology, tactics, and gear. Anyways, the guy asks me what he could do to be a good instructor. I told him exactly what I thought. He wants to do other instruction later on as well, so I told him that people should want to learn from him because they want to know what he knows and gain from what he has to offer. With most carry permit instructors, people go to them because it's the cheapest rate in town and they solely want to get their certificate. People typically don't go to carry permit courses to learn anything substantive about actually carrying.
Case in point: my little brother just turned 21 and went and got his certification. The guy he went through had people with .22LR target pistols and scoped hunting revolvers in his class for the qualification segment.
Now, long ago, I decided that if I did decide to start teaching permit to carry courses, that I would do it in no less than 2 days of instruction and shooting, and that all students would be mandated to use a weapon they could feasibly carry.

My point is, if you are going to take instruction, do yourself a favor and invest effort into your learning experience. Pick a good instructor that has good reviews for good instruction and presentation, and not for class passing ratios. This will benefit you greatly. I look at it akin to buying a bird dog from an experienced award-winning breeder rather than from a puppy-mill.

I agree 100%. Funny thing is...I am not a NRA certified instructor...plenty of them pimp people on my range...even some young guys that want to ask me if I need training....LOL. Watch out for them....they are all about the money. They like to carry pretty business cards also....ROFLOL. I had one ask me what gun I was shooting....was just a Glock....

EDIT: I would not call myself a gun expert, ammo expert, or instructor...I just have hands on experience and carry a weapon 365 days out of the year. I consider myself a normal American. My friends...they hunt game...I call them the experts. I was never a game hunter. I Am sure I could do OK with my AK-47 on a hunting trip though

Originally Posted by carcus

I agree 100%. Funny thing is...I am not a NRA certified instructor...plenty of them pimp people on my range...even some young guys that want to ask me if I need training....LOL. Watch out for them....they are all about the money. They like to carry pretty business cards also....ROFLOL. I had one ask me what gun I was shooting....was just a Glock....

EDIT: I would not call myself a gun expert, ammo expert, or instructor...I just have hands on experience and carry a weapon 365 days out of the year. I consider myself a normal American. My friends...they hunt game...I call them the experts. I was never a game hunter. I Am sure I could do OK with my AK-47 on a hunting trip though

Within the LE/SWAT/Tactical community I run around with or associate with, it's pretty well established that NRA certifications are like welfare checks- easy to get and most people don't deserve them.
The only NRA instructor certifications that are actually somewhat deserving are the LE firearms instructor courses, and even then they're still not as good as those you can get from other places.
I support the NRA, but far too much credibility is associated with their name, IMO.

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Within the LE/SWAT/Tactical community I run around with or associate with, it's pretty well established that NRA certifications are like welfare checks- easy to get and most people don't deserve them.
The only NRA instructor certifications that are actually somewhat deserving are the LE firearms instructor courses, and even then they're still not as good as those you can get from other places.
I support the NRA, but far too much credibility is associated with their name, IMO.

I agree, NRA member here but seems too easy for people to flash around a NRA instructor cert. I am by no means an instructor, all my experience is before the military and 20 years serving. Also, plenty of friends who were various operators and people from different services. I learn something new all the time. Everyone has their good and bad days at the range. Especially me since I usually bring 3 or 4 guns each time.

Incredible thread.

Thanks so much. I learned a lot. Honestly one of the best threads I've read on this whole site.

I'm not a fan of Rob Pincus, but this is a good video to take a look at.

A little insight into mentality from the Israeli Defense Force, as told by former IDF soldier, Ty DeNevi of Mako Defense/The Mako Group.

In Israel, he isn't dead 'till he's shot in the head.

It comes down to motive. What is the motive of the criminal - the thief, the drug dealer/runner, the rapist, the mugger, the guy poaching a moose? It is to benefit from the crime. In order to benefit, he must survive. If he must abandon the attempt to survive, or dump the drugs or cash, or leave the moose in the woods, he will.

A terrorist, in any form, is not a criminal. He is not a human. He has become a dangerous animal that acts without normal human logic. He may be a jihadist with a bomb strapped to himself, a kid in the mall with a weapon, a guy walking into a church with a shotgun because his marriage is falling apart and he wants to kill himself and take his wife and everyone else possible with him. Whatever he is, when he begins his act of terrorism he has made the decision to die. This is what makes him so dangerous. He does not think about his own safety. He does not care if he takes chances. He will continue on the course he has set out upon as quickly and aggressively as possible in order to ensure that he does the maximum amount of damage possible before he is killed. He does not lay on the floor after being shot and try to stop his bleeding. He lays on the floor and tries to kill more people before he bleeds out. He does not act with human emotion or logic. In fact, he is no longer human. Fortunately his body structure is human, and we therefore know how to destroy him.

As our society shifts to face a growing threat, our law enforcement must make the mental shift to be able to deal with this kind of violence. LE officers must have the mindset that when such an event begins, people will continue to die until someone stops it. There is no waiting for backup, moving slowly and safely; every second means more innocent people are dead. At the moment such an event starts, any officer (or civilian for that matter) who is on the scene or arriving to the scene must undergo an immediate transformation.

Taking a lesson from the terrorist, the person responding must cease to be the person he was and become a machine with a single purpose - to completely destroy the threat. Safety is no longer as important as speed and aggression when other people are dying.

A good insight into your consideration of how you need to respond to a shooting incident. Are you going to do what is necessary to stop the threat, or are you going to protect yourself? The outcomes may be the same, or they may be very different. Something to understand is that your reaction to a threat may vary by the incident, but what you decide can have a profound impact on others.

Originally Posted by Reedo302

I'm not a fan of Rob Pincus, but this is a good video to take a look at.

It has some good points but I dont agree with the call to 911 and his statements

He shot her too fast IMO. She was not listening but she was not advancing.

In this case it doesnt matter, but with other witnesses, it could be a problem.

ESPECIALLY girl vs guy and knife vs gun.

JMO.

Isn't the striking distance something like 7ft for someone with a knife? She was well within that, and could still have stabbed him even after he got a shot off.

IMO she didn't need to advance any further in other for me to consider her a threat, the fact that she drew the knife and then refused to back down (at that distance) is enough to set off alarms. He was also backed into a corner in the dark, I personally would have been wondering if she was just a distraction for someone else to sneak up on me.

Her size/gender don't matter to me

Originally Posted by GlockMan

He shot her too fast IMO. She was not listening but she was not advancing.

In this case it doesnt matter, but with other witnesses, it could be a problem.

ESPECIALLY girl vs guy and knife vs gun.

JMO.

At that distance, she could've closed the gap and stabbed him in less than 1 second. I'm not sure I would've given her more than 1 verbal. Her intentions were perfectly clear and the weapon was clearly ready to strike.

I disagree with his volunteering of information to 911. He said way too much. That recording will be played back a hundred times on TV and in court.

There are also situations when even calling 911 at all or reporting the incident is a bad move all together (hell, in the video, the guy was shot by the cops!). If it's a good shoot, there is no "crime" to report. Why place yourself at the scene or report yourself as involved? You have no duty to do so. Personally, I don't want my name and home address published all over the newspapers and TV to the bad guys family and friends on where and when to find me and my family for retaliation. There are situations where I would, and some that I may not.

Definitely a lot to consider and I hope I never, ever have to.

Originally Posted by Ghostie

Isn't the striking distance something like 7ft for someone with a knife? She was well within that, and could still have stabbed him even after he got a shot off.

IMO she didn't need to advance any further in other for me to consider her a threat, the fact that she drew the knife and then refused to back down (at that distance) is enough to set off alarms. He was also backed into a corner in the dark, I personally would have been wondering if she was just a distraction for someone else to sneak up on me.

Her size/gender don't matter to me

Tip-in distance is 5ft. This is the distance that someone can hit you or make contact with you instantaneously.
Reactionary Gap is 21ft (7yds). This is the distance that it takes for someone to close the gap to you before you can react. This is calculated by time. The average reaction time is 1.5 seconds, which allows for that 21ft.
She was well within lethal distance with that knife. There are the key elements that would work to his advantage in using deadly force-
1. She is the aggressor and is within the reactionary gap
2. He is backed into a corner and cannot retreat
3. She did not heed the warning
All that equals a good shoot.

Originally Posted by JonJon

I disagree with his volunteering of information to 911. He said way too much. That recording will be played back a hundred times on TV and in court.

There are also situations when even calling 911 at all or reporting the incident is a bad move all together (hell, in the video, the guy was shot by the cops!). If it's a good shoot, there is no "crime" to report. Why place yourself at the scene or report yourself as involved? You have no duty to do so. Personally, I don't want my name and home address published all over the newspapers and TV to the bad guys family and friends on where and when to find me and my family for retaliation. There are situations where I would, and some that I may not.

By you calling and giving info, you are prepping the police to arrive with your side of the events on their minds. This could be considered "spin control". It's best to have people arriving on scene to arrive with the report of a man defended himself from attack, as opposed just "shots fired and one person down". The reason why he got shot in one of the scenarios was for lack of communication and lack of understanding of what the police are going to perceive.

If you don't call, that's on you. It's incredibly ill-advised if you don't, but that's on you.
Let's consider the "what ifs"..
Say you don't call. What happens when police find a dead body on the street? What happens if the weapon is missing because a bum or street thug came by and took it (homeless people love knives for protection) and took all of her belongings? Kinda looks like a murder-robbery now. Then what happens when nearby surveillance cameras capture you leaving the area around the time that someone in the neighborhood reported hearing gunshots, or the time when the coroner determines was time of death? Now you're starting to look like a suspect. Say there's enough corroborating evidence to put you at the scene because a neighbor or business owner saw you leave the area right after the shots. Then the police take all that info, get a search warrant and search your house and car, and they locate a gun in the same caliber used to shoot the woman. Then they test it and ballistics match.
By that time, you're looking very much like a suspect, and saying "it was self defense" becomes much less believable. But by then, you'll likely have lawyered-up and won't talk to police, so they will submit the evidence to the county attorney that puts you at the scene and in possession of the murder weapon. Next thing you know, you're being charged with murder.
Think it can't happen? Watch the First 48 on A&E.

Instead, give them the info they need to respond, tell them whatever you need to in order to make them think you're the victim and you were acting within all of the elements of state statute (fear for life, no way to retreat, etc.), and then contact your attorney as soon as you safely can.

Valid points. By your own post you described what police do... They investigate and gather evidence to find suspects. Their job is not to prove anyone innocent, so why would I put my faith in them to side with me.

LE's jobs is to simply find the shooter and most likely arrest them, take their firearm (which you may never see again, innocent or guilty), and process you in the system.

I fully understand that there are situations where calling the police right away is the best move, situations where leaving the scene out of concern for your safety is the best move (and driving to your lawyer or police station), but I also can see cases where it would be in a persons best interest to not stick around at all.

Just thought I'd share my philosophies on rounds to carry and why. This gets asked a lot, so I figured that I'd share some thoughts. If you have some favorites, feel free to share them as well.


Bonded bullets:
I tend to prefer bonded bullets. Some people out there make claims that bonded bullets over-penetrate, and non-bonded bullets do a better job of creating wounds due to fragmentation. Bonded bullets were created for penetration, but they were created to eliminate the problem with fragmentation. Non-bonded bullets will fragment, and not predictably. There's usually jacket separation, which reduced the integrity of the lead core, and then the lead core can either fragment into pieces, or else the core can overly-flatten and deform. All of this can cause under-penetration, and I would rather have a bullet over-penetrate as opposed to under-penetrating. This is especially true if you spend a lot of time in a vehicle and may have to shoot through a door or window, or if you live in areas where people wear more clothing layers due to colder temps.

Bonded:



Conventional (non-bonded):



My preferred loads by caliber:

.380ACP
Hornady TAP 90gr FTX Critical Defense: This is one of the fastest and highest pressure .380 loads on the market. It is also one of the few that has 200+ft-lbs of muzzle energy. The biggest draw-backs of the smaller "micro calibers" are the lack of penetration and performance from hollowpoint bullets. Clothing can possibly clog a JHP cavity creating poor expansion. When you consider that this is a "carry" round, the likelyhood of shooting through clothing is pretty high. The cavity of a 90gr .380 bullet is pretty small and likely easily clogged. Having the polymer filler allows the round to work correctly and predictably, making this the best option in my book.

9mm Luger
Speer GoldDot 115gr +P+: This stuff is HOT. 1300fps and 432ft-lbs of energy make this thing scream out of a barrel. This is a bonded bullet, and the added performance of the +P+ makes this thing one of the most powerful loads on the market for the 9mm. The added pressure allows this round to work well in medium and shorter barrels, but the maximum benefits come from a full-size pistol.
Hornady 135gr +P FlexTip Critical Duty: For full-size or mid-size frame guns, this is a fantastic option. It's an advanced design that has modified the Critical Defense FTX bullet to more of a partition-style design using Hornady's InterLock design. The construction makes it very effective at penetrating barriers while still delivering results of soft tissue.
Speer GoldDot 124gr +P ShortBarrel: For carrying a smaller or subcompact pistol, this ammunition is well-designed. The powder is different, giving a better burn in the short barrel. Also, the hollowpoint cavity is larger for better expansion at lower velocity.

.40S&W
Federal Tactical 180gr HST: The 180gr is slower than the 165gr and 155gr loads, and has less energy out of the muzzle, but design still allows the 180gr to penetrate into targets better and deeper than the lighter counterparts. The 180gr is proven performer. The very wide hollowpoint opening allows it to work effectively through clothing.
Hornady 175gr FlexTip Critical Duty: While this round is more designed for the longer barrels, the bullet design still functions out of shorter barrels. Still, for mid-frame and full-size guns, this is a very ideal cartridge with excellent barrier penetration.

10mm Auto
Hornady 200gr XTP: This is just a heavy sledgehammer of a round. Having used this load for deer hunting, I can tell you that it is a seriously devastating round with exceptional performance. This benefits barrier penetration due to the ability of the round to maintain inertia upon impact and continue to carry that energy through into the target. While it may not penetrate as deeply in soft tissue, it will penetrate consistently if it hits bone due to that added mass. I would recommend this round for large frame guns like the Glock 20 w/ 4.6" barrel or a 1911 w/ a 5" barrel. The XTP bullet was one of the first bonded bullets on the market, and it is a very consistent performer.
Hornady 165gr Critical Defense: 165gr loads work about the same as 155gr loads, but have more inertia. This, matched with the FTX bullet makes this round a good carry load for more compact platforms like the Glock 29. The higher velocity will make sure that you get good performance from a compact size pistol. The design gives it excellent performance, but you won't have as much of a possibility of over-penetration.

.45 Auto
Hornady 200gr +P TAP FPD/TAP CQ XTP: The 200gr load is the best of all worlds with the .45ACP. 230gr loads have issues with barrier penetration due to low velocities. They do well against soft tissue, however. The heavier 200gr bullet mixed with the +P power increase make this a good option that allows barrier penetration while still causing exceptional soft tissue damage.
Federal HST 230gr +P: This is another option for the .45. For people who prefer the heavy 230gr bullet, the HST offers a lot in the way of expansion and penetration ability for a round that is only pushing 950fps. With 230gr loads, I am a big advocate of +P options for the added 100fps of velocity.


As you can see, I tend to prefer the Hornady, Federal and Speer loads. I have used loads from these companies extensively for the past 10 years. I have found their offerings to be very consistent and reliable, with reliable feeding/operation in all of the guns I've owned.

Generally a 115 +P+ will create more muzzle flash than 124+p right?

What about felt recoil?

Originally Posted by MrWesson

Generally a 115 +P+ will create more muzzle flash than 124+p right?

What about felt recoil?

Yes and no. Speer uses a low flash powder mixture for their GoldDots. You won't see any flash from a non-ported barrel, typically. With normal powder charges from other companies, you might see more flash.

The recoil will be more.

Good thread!
My contribution on ammo is....

Practice with what you will be using. This doesn't mean that you need to use expensive personal protection rounds all the time, but you DO need to shoot what you will be using for carry.
I reload my own ammo for the majority of range use, but I would NEVER put reloads into any magazine that might be used to defend myself or my family! Use purchased ammunition only. Buy some of the recommended ammunition and practice with it frequently.

JD Potynsky and the crew from NorthernRed training group recently posted an interesting perspective relating to Second and Third Orders of Effect.
It was in reference to this story- http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ho...137837938.html

You must be aware of Second and Third Order of Effect.

When you shoot another driver the finger, tell someone to shut up in the movie theater or cut in to take a parking spot have you analyzed the possible consequences? Are you prepared to respond to them even when it means killing someone?

In this story, from our home-base city of Philadelphia, a young kid never in trouble before curses at a cab while a car with three other youths (with no prior criminal record and in fact considering joining the armed forces) believe he was cursing at them so they exited their vehicle and beat him to death. All three are now under arrest for murder. Their lives over because of Second Order Effect.

You must live a Binary Life: Mind your own business, but when you or your family's lives are threatened and there's no way out -- then, you unleash a s**t storm of violence.

It makes a good point relating to not writing checks your butt can't cash. Everything has a causal effect, but we can never know for certain what the real effect may be. If you make a decision, you must be aware of what could happen as a result- both good and bad. Not only that, but you must be ready to meet those effects. Often times, we consider only one option for response when we should be doing everything we can to consider multiple response options. Maybe sometimes exercising the Nike defense is the best option; but if it isn't, at least you're prepared.